182 down knoxville

ASA operated ATRs out of CVG for awhile.

I always found it comical that the 1st CRJs held less Pax than the ATRs. How times change, now Delta serves CHA with mad dogs for most flights to ATL.
 
I live in the area. What frequently occurs is that clouds will be solid on one side of the Appalachians and clear on the other. I.e. The Tennessee valley will be souped in while the north Carolina side will remain clear. frequently the clouds will become broken along the raising terrain. It is tempting to try and duck under the layer in these areas to get to the valley. I would never try this at night; not saying that it was night when this accident occurred.
For the lower time pilot's reading this:
Don't try to duck under a layer in the mountains especially when you are not familiar with the terrain.
night operations should be done at higher altitude than one might attempt during the day.
If you are flying at night and lights in the distance disappear there is likely terrain blocking your view of the lights.
If you are flying at night and the lights in the distance start to flicker there may be trees or clouds partially blocking your view of the lights.
 
I always found it comical that the 1st CRJs held less Pax than the ATRs. How times change, now Delta serves CHA with mad dogs for most flights to ATL.

I remember when Delta closed their CHA station and we took over. Oh there were some ****ed off locals. One rumor we always heard was that CHA had the most Delta Medallion customers or something like that. Always enjoyed flying into CHA, nice airport. Started when the old terminal was there flying a Brasilia.
 
And enough to divert? I don't know how widespread the IFR conditions were, but I do know down here 96kmi away it was IFR. Another possibility is he got there and then realized he didn't have the fuel to divert to a VFR field.

I wondered that as well. It's possible he was concerned that he didn't have enough fuel to divert to a VFR field so took the gamble on ducking under the clouds. If that was the case, he was between a rock and a hard place.
 
I wondered that as well. It's possible he was concerned that he didn't have enough fuel to divert to a VFR field so took the gamble on ducking under the clouds. If that was the case, he was between a rock and a hard place.

C182 holds a lot of fuel, especially if he had the long range tanks. If he topped off in JAX fuel would not have been a factor. IF he topped off.
 
It will be interesting to hear the tapes from flight following. This is a prime example of where the three C's could have helped.
 
And enough to divert? I don't know how widespread the IFR conditions were, but I do know down here 96kmi away it was IFR. Another possibility is he got there and then realized he didn't have the fuel to divert to a VFR field.

Maybe VFR pilots should be informed as to what a PAR approach is, and maybe try one during primary training. The guy could have bugged out to TYS next door and had the controllers help him get in.

I show TYS with an ASR but not a PAR. I agree though, even with an ASR it's a helpful tool in getting a VFR pilot down safely. No need worrying about tuning and distracting the pilot radio / GPS NAV. Just do your instrument scan and listen to the controller.
 
I live in the area. What frequently occurs is that clouds will be solid on one side of the Appalachians and clear on the other. I.e. The Tennessee valley will be souped in while the north Carolina side will remain clear. frequently the clouds will become broken along the raising terrain. It is tempting to try and duck under the layer in these areas to get to the valley. I would never try this at night; not saying that it was night when this accident occurred.
.....

just like the pic I posted earlier. this exact scenario happened last time I tried going to knoxville, which is just past gatlinburg. as u can see here, I opted to divert instead of duck under the very enticing solid layer.

detour2.jpg
 
I show TYS with an ASR but not a PAR. I agree though, even with an ASR it's a helpful tool in getting a VFR pilot down safely. No need worrying about tuning and distracting the pilot radio / GPS NAV. Just do your instrument scan and listen to the controller.

TYS antenna west of the mountains so at a low altitude they probably couldn't 'see' him or lost radar due to the mountains. Might not have ever had him on radar but we'll know eventually.
 
I show TYS with an ASR but not a PAR. I agree though, even with an ASR it's a helpful tool in getting a VFR pilot down safely. No need worrying about tuning and distracting the pilot radio / GPS NAV. Just do your instrument scan and listen to the controller.

You're right, it's ASR at TYS. My II had me do a couple of ASRs during training, I can still hear old Ray saying: "Bill, you'll likely never need to do one of these, but I want you to know about them in case you do."
 
Uh-oh! Now MAKG is going to really be seeing red.

Yes, that's right.

An untrained instrument pilot operating without a visible horizon fixating on an iPad.... That's not just stupid, it's OMIGOD stupid. You will guarantee disorientation. Using an unmounted AHRS means you don't know where level is, so it confuses the scan. All it will do is kill the pilot faster and make it a whole lot harder to collect the debris.

If he wasn't operating without a visible horizon, it wouldn't be necessary. That's what eyeballs are for.

I'm all for moderated hazard information, but honestly, if you EVER need those yellow or red spots on your iPad, you screwed up so bad you should stop flying until you can consult an instructor and make a training plan to deal with it. And using it to scud run....I'm running out of stupid points for this. If you need your iPad to tell you where it's less dangerous to go, it's a no-go. Full stop, end of story.

I've yet to see truly useful synthetic vision. The 3D perspective loses distance and height information, both of which are critical. It looks pretty, but the 2D elevation maps are a whole lot more useful.

Some people seem to put a whole lot of faith in untested technology. ALWAYS back it up with something, as you have no idea if it will work properly or as you expect when you need it.

It's pretty clear that only a few posters in this thread have the slightest clue about mountain weather. You don't scud run over terrain. PERIOD. Clouds almost always get closer to the ground as the elevation rises, well out of proportion to the elevation. It's not unusual to see clouds huddled on the windward side of a mountain, to the ground, when it is a high ceiling further windward. Even if the windward ceiling is above the peaks.
 
TYS antenna west of the mountains so at a low altitude they probably couldn't 'see' him or lost radar due to the mountains. Might not have ever had him on radar but we'll know eventually.

The radar track has been published and they saw him to about 300 feet of the crash site.

Just don't believe what you see on public "tracking" websites, as the data is almost always incomplete and often quite wrong.
 
Y
An untrained instrument pilot operating without a visible horizon fixating on an iPad.... That's not just stupid, it's OMIGOD stupid. You will guarantee disorientation.

I attempted to safety pilot for an instrument student who did this. I'm not instrument rated and haven't started that training yet, so I wasn't exactly sure what to expect. But, to me, it seemed his eyes should be spending most of their time on the instrument panel not on his iPad. He was glued to that thing. I caught him starting to enter unusual attitudes several times. I finally made him tell me before entering any turn or making any climb/descent so I would know what was intentional or not. It was bad.

Thankfully there was some real IMC moving in, so we cut the flight short. I have no doubt that Foreflight is an excellent tool as an experienced instrument rated pilot, but I'm not sold on it's usefulness to someone new to that kind of flying.
 
The radar track has been published and they saw him to about 300 feet of the crash site.

Just don't believe what you see on public "tracking" websites, as the data is almost always incomplete and often quite wrong.

OK I stand corrected. Happy? :rolleyes:
 
I attempted to safety pilot for an instrument student who did this. I'm not instrument rated and haven't started that training yet, so I wasn't exactly sure what to expect. But, to me, it seemed his eyes should be spending most of their time on the instrument panel not on his iPad. He was glued to that thing. I caught him starting to enter unusual attitudes several times. I finally made him tell me before entering any turn or making any climb/descent so I would know what was intentional or not. It was bad.

Thankfully there was some real IMC moving in, so we cut the flight short. I have no doubt that Foreflight is an excellent tool as an experienced instrument rated pilot, but I'm not sold on it's usefulness to someone new to that kind of flying.

Yup, you're right.

Fixation is also something new instrument pilots have to train away. Even fixating on one correct instrument such as the AI can lead to problems.

A good scan is the first thing instrument students should learn.

Operating on an iPad like this is probably something that can be trained for, but it won't be different from partial panel instrument training. A moving map can help you stay aware of where you are in relation to a procedure, but it should never be a crutch, and positively should never be primary navigation for any operation. Believe me, it's tempting to use it in a G1000 when the AHRS "fails," but it will end up offsetting you from the final approach course if used exclusively.

As you suspect, if you caught him entering unusual attitudes, he was in over his head with the equipment he was using. And unusual attitudes in instrument training are defined a bit tighter -- in a spam can, more than about 20 deg bank or -5..10 deg pitch is beyond what is called for at any point while under the hood. Standard rate turns are around 15 deg bank. Slow cruise may get you up to 10 deg pitch, but no higher.
 
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And enough to divert? I don't know how widespread the IFR conditions were, but I do know down here 96kmi away it was IFR. Another possibility is he got there and then realized he didn't have the fuel to divert to a VFR field.

Maybe VFR pilots should be informed as to what a PAR approach is, and maybe try one during primary training. The guy could have bugged out to TYS next door and had the controllers help him get in.

I was literally right there (just north) when this was unfolding. Pretty decent cloud layer stretching around all directions, but there were holes over Knoxville where I was able to see the ground. Based on the METAR for GKT, if he'd been running about 30-45 minutes behind schedule, he'd arrived just in time for the clouds to clear out. Not sure if that's true or not since there was a line of storms moving west to east that day though.
 
From the Beechcraft Talk website

... My buddy just called. He and his crew found the aircraft at about 5500'. They were skimming the base of the cloud layer in order to find them. Lowered two guys to check occupants. No survivors. They were vfr direct from Florida. He said they missed clearing the top of that mountain by 30-100' depending on the angle of descent. But there was another that would have been in the way closer to the airport. Complete loss of situational awareness. Not using charts, foreflight or any common sense...

No instrument is better than having common sense or having proper mountain training or have good decision making abilities, but I still think the audible alert in his headset from the ForeFlight app would have helped increase his situational awareness that he unexpectedly found himself in (no one would intentionally put him/herself in that position) so if you found out that you screwed up that badly, you might survive to get the training that you are lacking.


 
I attempted to safety pilot for an instrument student who did this. I'm not instrument rated and haven't started that training yet, so I wasn't exactly sure what to expect.

This becomes a hot button topic around here pretty fast, but it's one of the reasons many CFIIs recommend NOT putting an instrument *student* and a non-instrument rated pilot together for safety pilot duty unless a CFI or preferrably a CFII have talked with the *student* about it and how to brief a training flight properly.

They don't always know what and why they're going to do stuff, the non-Instrument rated pilot certainly doesn't know why they're doing stuff, and the whole thing can put bad habits in the head of the student that can be a bear to break.

Further along / sharp instrument students will brief the entire flight to their safety pilot including duties and responsibilities, and how they'd prefer stuff like traffic be communicated to them, etc. and of course any rated instrument pilot also would/should.

I have heard, but haven't experienced yet, that @TangoWhiskey does this extremely well -- and hope to sit in his right seat sometime to see it. If nothing else to gain some more ideas for my own flying.

Another tip: If you both have Foreflight, the "send flightplan" function is quite useful for pre-briefing. I've even had one DPE do it. No confusion between him and me as to what I had planned to fly, and he had his own copy of it so he could piddle around if he wanted to on his iPad looking for airfields or whatever he wanted to do over there, without having to have mine where he could see it.

Another tip for EFB tools: Mount them and lock them down. I personally like Ram Mounts with suction cups but kneeboards or whatever are fine too... then treat them as just another instrument in your scan. Don't fixate on them. I've done the "Foreflight in my lap" thing and it's fine VMC, but if it's weather flying, it's locked down somewhere in a mount or secured where it'll be there when my eyes need to go to it for a quick situational awareness look at the moving map, or more details like an approach plate for a briefing.

And that leads to approaches with them: Put the plates you'll most likely use in a folder pre-flight. Touchscreens suck in turbulence. Make finding the plates and taxi diagrams for departure and arrival airports as easy as possible by doing a little pre-flight prep. Only takes a few minutes. Pre-set the Plates screen on that folder. Now all you need are two pokes (I call the touchscreen UI "target practice" in turbulence) to get to the plate you need. Less work, more time to pay attention to primary instruments.)

Anyway, not to go too far off topic here, but your post reminded me of some early safety pilot flights that I did for somewhat disorganized instrument pilots. If their pre-flight plan consists of "Let's to shoot some approaches - hop in!", stop and have them consider that it's better if they tell you a bit more of their plan. Sure, it can change... wind shift, runway change, etc... but have at least an idea what they're planning to do and see it on a chart before offering to assist.

Also definitely go over how they want you to handle traffic lookout and confirmation that you're doing it. Here's how I brief that:

- If either one of us knows about traffic from a radio call or from the traffic system we will acknowledge it, out loud to each other, and remember only you can see it. If you have it in sight let me know. If you are comfortable with the radios, and the controller is expecting an "in sight" call, you make it. If you'd rather I say it, tell me.

- If a collision risk is forming, tell me a heading and whether you want a climb or descent.

- If it's looking real close, don't hesitate to tell me to go Visual immediately. I'll probably do this anyway if your voice is going up an octave. Ha

- Use standard phraseology to point out traffic to me if you need to. "2 o'clock, three miles" just like a controller. Same with avoidance commands, "Turn right heading 180, climb and maintain X".

- Don't worry about interrupting me or breaking off an approach. I'll make the radio call if that happened and this is VFR flight. Training. You need me away from another airplane just make me do it. You're simulating ATC. We can always fly back out and set it up again, no problem. If you think ANYTHING is wrong, just tell me to go visual and we'll figure it out.

We could probably make a whole thread on how to "manage" safety pilots and a two pilot cockpit. This is just some pointers from flights where I've seen confusion set in instead of having fun doing it.

I think there's great benefit from even non-rated safety pilots seeing someone fly the IFR system and fly like a real IMC plan, but both the rated pilot and the non-rated need to set some ground rules before the prop turns. Students sometimes are not yet to a point where they remember to communicate this sort of stuff to a safety pilot. Usually it's better if they use an instrument rated safety pilot early on, and discuss doing so with their instructor. I get that it's cheaper to grab anyone and "just go", but it can end up "not fun" fairly quick.

Safety pilot volunteers also play a part. Make the pilot tell you where obstacles are, where's the terrain, what is our expected course (even if it's radar vectors to final you can look over the chart in that area for things to watch out for), etc.

And there's an experience piece. If the student went 50' low at decision height and didn't go missed, would you know what DH was and notice they did it? There's a lot of stuff to hit down that low... (typically 150' AGL). How about if they really blew it and they're 100' low? (100' AGL) Would you call out "missed approach, climb immediately!" or not know it doesn't normally look that way? They're just sitting over there looking at the instruments like they have been for the past hour and might look completely calm like everything is normal...

Students try to kill CFIs all the time. LOL. Be very careful helping instrument students out as safety pilot if not rated. Make sure you know when they're trying to kill you. Ha.
 
Damn I think Nate made up for those short posts he made! Wow Nate!
 
This becomes a hot button topic around here pretty fast, but it's one of the reasons many CFIIs recommend NOT putting an instrument *student* and a non-instrument rated pilot together for safety pilot duty unless a CFI or preferrably a CFII have talked with the *student* about it and how to brief a training flight properly.

They don't always know what and why they're going to do stuff, the non-Instrument rated pilot certainly doesn't know why they're doing stuff, and the whole thing can put bad habits in the head of the student that can be a bear to break.

Further along / sharp instrument students will brief the entire flight to their safety pilot including duties and responsibilities, and how they'd prefer stuff like traffic be communicated to them, etc. and of course any rated instrument pilot also would/should.

I have heard, but haven't experienced yet, that @TangoWhiskey does this extremely well -- and hope to sit in his right seat sometime to see it. If nothing else to gain some more ideas for my own flying.

Another tip: If you both have Foreflight, the "send flightplan" function is quite useful for pre-briefing. I've even had one DPE do it. No confusion between him and me as to what I had planned to fly, and he had his own copy of it so he could piddle around if he wanted to on his iPad looking for airfields or whatever he wanted to do over there, without having to have mine where he could see it.

Another tip for EFB tools: Mount them and lock them down. I personally like Ram Mounts with suction cups but kneeboards or whatever are fine too... then treat them as just another instrument in your scan. Don't fixate on them. I've done the "Foreflight in my lap" thing and it's fine VMC, but if it's weather flying, it's locked down somewhere in a mount or secured where it'll be there when my eyes need to go to it for a quick situational awareness look at the moving map, or more details like an approach plate for a briefing.

And that leads to approaches with them: Put the plates you'll most likely use in a folder pre-flight. Touchscreens suck in turbulence. Make finding the plates and taxi diagrams for departure and arrival airports as easy as possible by doing a little pre-flight prep. Only takes a few minutes. Pre-set the Plates screen on that folder. Now all you need are two pokes (I call the touchscreen UI "target practice" in turbulence) to get to the plate you need. Less work, more time to pay attention to primary instruments.)

Anyway, not to go too far off topic here, but your post reminded me of some early safety pilot flights that I did for somewhat disorganized instrument pilots. If their pre-flight plan consists of "Let's to shoot some approaches - hop in!", stop and have them consider that it's better if they tell you a bit more of their plan. Sure, it can change... wind shift, runway change, etc... but have at least an idea what they're planning to do and see it on a chart before offering to assist.

Also definitely go over how they want you to handle traffic lookout and confirmation that you're doing it. Here's how I brief that:

- If either one of us knows about traffic from a radio call or from the traffic system we will acknowledge it, out loud to each other, and remember only you can see it. If you have it in sight let me know. If you are comfortable with the radios, and the controller is expecting an "in sight" call, you make it. If you'd rather I say it, tell me.

- If a collision risk is forming, tell me a heading and whether you want a climb or descent.

- If it's looking real close, don't hesitate to tell me to go Visual immediately. I'll probably do this anyway if your voice is going up an octave. Ha

- Use standard phraseology to point out traffic to me if you need to. "2 o'clock, three miles" just like a controller. Same with avoidance commands, "Turn right heading 180, climb and maintain X".

- Don't worry about interrupting me or breaking off an approach. I'll make the radio call if that happened and this is VFR flight. Training. You need me away from another airplane just make me do it. You're simulating ATC. We can always fly back out and set it up again, no problem. If you think ANYTHING is wrong, just tell me to go visual and we'll figure it out.

We could probably make a whole thread on how to "manage" safety pilots and a two pilot cockpit. This is just some pointers from flights where I've seen confusion set in instead of having fun doing it.

I think there's great benefit from even non-rated safety pilots seeing someone fly the IFR system and fly like a real IMC plan, but both the rated pilot and the non-rated need to set some ground rules before the prop turns. Students sometimes are not yet to a point where they remember to communicate this sort of stuff to a safety pilot. Usually it's better if they use an instrument rated safety pilot early on, and discuss doing so with their instructor. I get that it's cheaper to grab anyone and "just go", but it can end up "not fun" fairly quick.

Safety pilot volunteers also play a part. Make the pilot tell you where obstacles are, where's the terrain, what is our expected course (even if it's radar vectors to final you can look over the chart in that area for things to watch out for), etc.

And there's an experience piece. If the student went 50' low at decision height and didn't go missed, would you know what DH was and notice they did it? There's a lot of stuff to hit down that low... (typically 150' AGL). How about if they really blew it and they're 100' low? (100' AGL) Would you call out "missed approach, climb immediately!" or not know it doesn't normally look that way? They're just sitting over there looking at the instruments like they have been for the past hour and might look completely calm like everything is normal...

Students try to kill CFIs all the time. LOL. Be very careful helping instrument students out as safety pilot if not rated. Make sure you know when they're trying to kill you. Ha.

Nate, make this a separate post, perhaps a sticky.

There is lots of good stuff in here, but it's off topic.

I used CAP protocols for safety pilots, as most of my safety pilots were CAP pilots, and we're all familiar with it. Instrument rated or not, a mission brief with a detailed plan including crew responsibilities is how it is done. For exam or Form 5 prep, I usually take responsibility for everything except traffic calls. The safety pilot frequently needs to give vectors, but Approach actually does most of it locally associated with an IAP. Otherwise, it varies according to the right seat's capability (I won't ask a non-G1000 pilot to enter the flight plan in a G1000, for instance, unless he has said he wants the practice). I think the only thing nonstandard I do is that I won't respond to traffic calls when I'm under the hood. Something about calling "traffic in sight" when I can't see anything seems quite wrong to me.

And reasonably often, I share safety pilot responsibilities with another instrument pilot, which means shutting down and switching seats. Some sort of plan for where we do that is really helpful.

I don't see the safety pilot's role as identifying the PIC's mistakes, though that sort of feedback is very helpful if it is available. The primary purpose is to keep the PIC from banging into things, and busting a minimum is pretty far from that in VMC. For instance, a few weeks ago, I was safety pilot, and the PIC read the wrong minimum off the approach chart for the KLVK RNAV (it has two stepdown minima AFTER the FAF). I let him get pretty low to see if he noticed, and only started saying something when we got below the VFR comfort zone (approaching 1000 AGL in the pass).
 
This becomes a hot button topic around here pretty fast, but it's one of the reasons many CFIIs recommend NOT putting an instrument *student* and a non-instrument rated pilot together for safety pilot duty unless a CFI or preferrably a CFII have talked with the *student* about it and how to brief a training flight properly.

They don't always know what and why they're going to do stuff, the non-Instrument rated pilot certainly doesn't know why they're doing stuff, and the whole thing can put bad habits in the head of the student that can be a bear to break.

Further along / sharp instrument students will brief the entire flight to their safety pilot including duties and responsibilities, and how they'd prefer stuff like traffic be communicated to them, etc. and of course any rated instrument pilot also would/should.

I have heard, but haven't experienced yet, that @TangoWhiskey does this extremely well -- and hope to sit in his right seat sometime to see it. If nothing else to gain some more ideas for my own flying.

Another tip: If you both have Foreflight, the "send flightplan" function is quite useful for pre-briefing. I've even had one DPE do it. No confusion between him and me as to what I had planned to fly, and he had his own copy of it so he could piddle around if he wanted to on his iPad looking for airfields or whatever he wanted to do over there, without having to have mine where he could see it.

Another tip for EFB tools: Mount them and lock them down. I personally like Ram Mounts with suction cups but kneeboards or whatever are fine too... then treat them as just another instrument in your scan. Don't fixate on them. I've done the "Foreflight in my lap" thing and it's fine VMC, but if it's weather flying, it's locked down somewhere in a mount or secured where it'll be there when my eyes need to go to it for a quick situational awareness look at the moving map, or more details like an approach plate for a briefing.

And that leads to approaches with them: Put the plates you'll most likely use in a folder pre-flight. Touchscreens suck in turbulence. Make finding the plates and taxi diagrams for departure and arrival airports as easy as possible by doing a little pre-flight prep. Only takes a few minutes. Pre-set the Plates screen on that folder. Now all you need are two pokes (I call the touchscreen UI "target practice" in turbulence) to get to the plate you need. Less work, more time to pay attention to primary instruments.)

Anyway, not to go too far off topic here, but your post reminded me of some early safety pilot flights that I did for somewhat disorganized instrument pilots. If their pre-flight plan consists of "Let's to shoot some approaches - hop in!", stop and have them consider that it's better if they tell you a bit more of their plan. Sure, it can change... wind shift, runway change, etc... but have at least an idea what they're planning to do and see it on a chart before offering to assist.

Also definitely go over how they want you to handle traffic lookout and confirmation that you're doing it. Here's how I brief that:

- If either one of us knows about traffic from a radio call or from the traffic system we will acknowledge it, out loud to each other, and remember only you can see it. If you have it in sight let me know. If you are comfortable with the radios, and the controller is expecting an "in sight" call, you make it. If you'd rather I say it, tell me.

- If a collision risk is forming, tell me a heading and whether you want a climb or descent.

- If it's looking real close, don't hesitate to tell me to go Visual immediately. I'll probably do this anyway if your voice is going up an octave. Ha

- Use standard phraseology to point out traffic to me if you need to. "2 o'clock, three miles" just like a controller. Same with avoidance commands, "Turn right heading 180, climb and maintain X".

- Don't worry about interrupting me or breaking off an approach. I'll make the radio call if that happened and this is VFR flight. Training. You need me away from another airplane just make me do it. You're simulating ATC. We can always fly back out and set it up again, no problem. If you think ANYTHING is wrong, just tell me to go visual and we'll figure it out.

We could probably make a whole thread on how to "manage" safety pilots and a two pilot cockpit. This is just some pointers from flights where I've seen confusion set in instead of having fun doing it.

I think there's great benefit from even non-rated safety pilots seeing someone fly the IFR system and fly like a real IMC plan, but both the rated pilot and the non-rated need to set some ground rules before the prop turns. Students sometimes are not yet to a point where they remember to communicate this sort of stuff to a safety pilot. Usually it's better if they use an instrument rated safety pilot early on, and discuss doing so with their instructor. I get that it's cheaper to grab anyone and "just go", but it can end up "not fun" fairly quick.

Safety pilot volunteers also play a part. Make the pilot tell you where obstacles are, where's the terrain, what is our expected course (even if it's radar vectors to final you can look over the chart in that area for things to watch out for), etc.

And there's an experience piece. If the student went 50' low at decision height and didn't go missed, would you know what DH was and notice they did it? There's a lot of stuff to hit down that low... (typically 150' AGL). How about if they really blew it and they're 100' low? (100' AGL) Would you call out "missed approach, climb immediately!" or not know it doesn't normally look that way? They're just sitting over there looking at the instruments like they have been for the past hour and might look completely calm like everything is normal...

Students try to kill CFIs all the time. LOL. Be very careful helping instrument students out as safety pilot if not rated. Make sure you know when they're trying to kill you. Ha.

Nothing to add, I just wanted to quote Nate's novel. Happy scrolling!
 
Nate, make this a separate post, perhaps a sticky.

There is lots of good stuff in here, but it's off topic.

@denverpilot I agree with MAKG. Let's move this on to another post. It's a good topic to discuss and, trust me, I have a lot of thoughts on this. The iPad issue was the least of my concerns on that safety piloting adventure. I had been really looking forward to it, but it was a disaster. A lot I wish I had known going in, but all I was told was that my job was to look for traffic.
 
So...from the preliminary report the pilot just flew right into a mountain? Did I read that right?
 
@denverpilot I agree with MAKG. Let's move this on to another post. It's a good topic to discuss and, trust me, I have a lot of thoughts on this. The iPad issue was the least of my concerns on that safety piloting adventure. I had been really looking forward to it, but it was a disaster. A lot I wish I had known going in, but all I was told was that my job was to look for traffic.
If you felt unsafe at any point, you should have called it. It's a critical issue to discuss up front, but anyone on board should be empowered to call off a flight for any safety reason. Even if his crappy control just makes you queasy, or you don't have confidence he can handle it. Definitely if he gets behind the airplane for the missed approach on an ILS.
 
So...from the preliminary report the pilot just flew right into a mountain? Did I read that right?
That's the fact. The most charitable explanation is some kind of power failure that forced the plane down earlier than planned. Worst case is a careless pilot starting a descent 5 miles too soon. Hope it's not the latter.
 
Preliminary report out by the NTSB. Just facts at this point, but it is interesting to note a few things:

Preliminary Accident Report

1) WX was decent at GKT 15 miles north of the accident site, but 25 miles south at 1A5 it was overcast at 2,400
2) Satellite imagery showed instrument flight rules conditions with cloud tops between 6,000 and 7,000 feet in the area surrounding the accident site and southward
3) VFR Flight Following was terminated and a frequency change to CTAF given by the controller. No indication at that time anything was wrong mechanically
4) Coincidentally, it looks like the aircraft was a little over a month past due for an annual inspection

We have more facts now, but still waiting to hear exactly what they found at the accident site. It says they removed the aircraft wreckage for further inspection. We'll see what it provides.
 
I have no doubt that Foreflight is an excellent tool as an experienced instrument rated pilot, but I'm not sold on it's usefulness to someone new to that kind of flying.

Don't let that give you a bad impression of iPad usage. They are excellent for charts, plates, and increased situational awareness and really help with keeping things organized and easily accessible. You can fixate on a 430 or a paper chart just as much as you can a chart on an iPad.

Student Instrument pilots are going to make mistakes and it takes time to build a good scan all while holding attitude/altitude/speed within limits. If you are going to fly safety pilot, you have to be willing to let them make safe mistakes, including unintentional climbs/descents and turns.
 
...

Another tip for EFB tools: Mount them and lock them down. I personally like Ram Mounts with suction cups but kneeboards or whatever are fine too... then treat them as just another instrument in your scan. Don't fixate on them. I've done the "Foreflight in my lap" thing and it's fine VMC, but if it's weather flying, it's locked down somewhere in a mount or secured where it'll be there when my eyes need to go to it for a quick situational awareness look at the moving map, or more details like an approach plate for a briefing...

Diffrent strokes for diffrent folks.

I can't stand hard mounted iPads, especially yoke mounted ones.
I use mine like a knee board just sitting sideways on my lap, it's a mini cellular with no other boxes or cables in canvas case with a elastic strap to hold the legal pad and a pen hoop, I close the flap and there is a small legal pad attached, flip the flap open so it's against me and there's my iPad. Works great for me in IMC and complex VFR, but for most normal VFR it's just riding in the side pocket if I even bring it, not really needed for normal VFR stuff except maybe for a odd ball W&B, quick search of a PDF contour map, or just to jot something down on the legal pad.

But that's IFR stuff, every pilot likes his office a certain way, and as long as it works for you, it's all gravey.
 
gatlinburg is just over that last peak, then knoxville after that:

View attachment 50149
this is the terrain leading up to that last peak. after that it's flat as flat can be:
View attachment 50150


here u can see the peaks ending. the flatland, and gatlinburg, is just under where that solid overcast layer is, and where I clearly made the decision to go somewhere else. this is looking WNW. to the east of those mountains there wasn't a cloud in the sky. that's how different the wx pattern can be on either side of them thar hills. I don't know how I made it out successfully without owning a cirrus. (<-------pssst, that was sarcasm------) View attachment 50151


anyways, as you can see, extra planning would be required for a trip like this. and although I know everyone has different minimums, I'm not sure I would want to make a flight over these hills at night in perfect wx, forget about questionable wx and with family. not judging the pilot at all, maybe I just know the terrain a little better than someone who might not have flown around here before. either way, sad.

Good call and good pics, that is very normal weather for that trip. I used to fly from Raleigh to Nashville all the time and would frequently stop at Knoxville Downtown on the way.
 
Diffrent strokes for diffrent folks.

I can't stand hard mounted iPads, especially yoke mounted ones.
I use mine like a knee board just sitting sideways on my lap, it's a mini cellular with no other boxes or cables in canvas case with a elastic strap to hold the legal pad and a pen hoop, I close the flap and there is a small legal pad attached, flip the flap open so it's against me and there's my iPad. Works great for me in IMC and complex VFR, but for most normal VFR it's just riding in the side pocket if I even bring it, not really needed for normal VFR stuff except maybe for a odd ball W&B, quick search of a PDF contour map, or just to jot something down on the legal pad.

But that's IFR stuff, every pilot likes his office a certain way, and as long as it works for you, it's all gravey.

Mine always ends up under the seat on the floor in turbulence whenever I try that. Haha.
 
http://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/...gone-now-says-mother-smokies-victim/95907104/

"The single-engine plane that crashed in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park this week slammed into a mountainside at 5,400 feet as the pilot descended to land at the Gatlinburg-Pigeon Forge Airport, according to a preliminary report from the Federal Aviation Administration. ...The plane went down about 15 miles southeast of the airport.

The plane lost contact with radar and communications with the airport tower at 5 p.m., according to National Transportation Safety Board spokesman Eric Weiss. He said the plane "impacted terrain" at 5,400 feet
."

It goes on to say it was foggy and rainy, and that the pilot was not instrument rated. And then they start interviewing some random aviation attorney who has nothing to do with the case and his comments would likely make @MAKG1 see red. (spoiler - The guy makes speculations that had no place being in a news article.)

Anyway, the incident occurred at or around 5 pm, not 4 pm as others were saying. It does sound more and more like he descended into the clouds and struck a mountain he didn't see or know was there, but I guess time will tell. Thinking about that child in the plane and I actually really hope this is how it happened... I hope none of them saw it coming and that the kid never once felt an ounce of fear or pain.

Thanks for posting this. I have one question though-- I thought it was generally good practice to not descend below minimum safe altitude for any section of chart for any VFR pilot until they have made visual contact with the airport they are descending down to? Is this not actually true?

So in the stated scenario( crash) my understanding is the VFR only pilot should maintain above minimum safe altitude to avoid any controlled flight into terrain. The fact that he decided to descend before he could visually see the airport( given the visibility reported as 10 miles and an over cast layer between 5,000 and 6,000 feet I think we can all see the situation he was in-- probably thinking I better get down now under the overcast before too much longer) is the real lesson to be learned here for us flatlanders! It's entirely possible he forgot he was flying in mountainous terrain, descended on a normal descent profile( 10 miles or so out, 5,000 or so feet to descend at 500 feet per minute puts him perfectly at TPA-- assuming it's 1,000ft or so, and possibly the pilot just blissfully descended without considering the surrounding terrain! The fact that no charts were found makes me very concerned that this pilot could have been unaware of his surroundings and placed his aircraft in a really bad spot!

It's very sad all around!
 
Thanks for posting this. I have one question though-- I thought it was generally good practice to not descend below minimum safe altitude for any section of chart for any VFR pilot until they have made visual contact with the airport they are descending down to? Is this not actually true?

So in the stated scenario( crash) my understanding is the VFR only pilot should maintain above minimum safe altitude to avoid any controlled flight into terrain. The fact that he decided to descend before he could visually see the airport( given the visibility reported as 10 miles and an over cast layer between 5,000 and 6,000 feet I think we can all see the situation he was in-- probably thinking I better get down now under the overcast before too much longer) is the real lesson to be learned here for us flatlanders! It's entirely possible he forgot he was flying in mountainous terrain, descended on a normal descent profile( 10 miles or so out, 5,000 or so feet to descend at 500 feet per minute puts him perfectly at TPA-- assuming it's 1,000ft or so, and possibly the pilot just blissfully descended without considering the surrounding terrain! The fact that no charts were found makes me very concerned that this pilot could have been unaware of his surroundings and placed his aircraft in a really bad spot!

It's very sad all around!
Those are some good questions. MEFs are not that useful in mountainous areas, as they are much too coarse. For instance, consider an approach from the east into Livermore (KLVK). The MEF will have you over the airport at ridiculous altitude. The right thing to do is to look at the VFR chart and plan your approach over the interstate at 3000 or so, descending once you cross the city limit. You might have a visual on the field there, but it just looks like a dark spot in the city, and there are several others. Alternatively, you can follow an instrument approach VFR, as those are designed to keep you off terrain.

We will probably never know what motivated this guy to descend into a mountain, but for you, know where you are and where the terrain and obstructions are, and keep 2000 feet between you and them at night.

VFR, you have to plan descent. At night, or in less than perfect visibility, it's even more important.
 
Those are some good questions. MEFs are not that useful in mountainous areas, as they are much too coarse. For instance, consider an approach from the east into Livermore (KLVK). The MEF will have you over the airport at ridiculous altitude. The right thing to do is to look at the VFR chart and plan your approach over the interstate at 3000 or so, descending once you cross the city limit. You might have a visual on the field there, but it just looks like a dark spot in the city, and there are several others. Alternatively, you can follow an instrument approach VFR, as those are designed to keep you off terrain.

We will probably never know what motivated this guy to descend into a mountain, but for you, know where you are and where the terrain and obstructions are, and keep 2000 feet between you and them at night.

VFR, you have to plan descent. At night, or in less than perfect visibility, it's even more important.

Thanks for this-- it is helpful! I do still think though, that in the event a pilot is flying into an airport in a valley or just beyond mountains, the best course of action may just very well be to find the airport first( even if you need to be practically right above it) at higher than minimum safe altitude. So even if it means you have to spiral down above the airport from 6,500 feet above it, my sense is that would be far safer than descending below clouds in a mountain range hoping you can find clear skies below.

This being said, I have all but no mountain flying experience. The most relavant experience I have was one day flying into Stewart airport( KSWF) on a fairly changeable weather day. Those hills around there are not very tall( ~2,500ft) but I do clearly remember thinking to myself, geez if these clouds keep getting lower I can't stay under them as I'd be below the tallest spot around me. ATC was constantly issueing warnings to other pilots that they were below minimum safe altitude and to climb immediately. I had a bazillion outs including simply flying over the Hudson river so it was a non-event, but I do remember feeling like I was stuck between a rock(very large hill) and a hard place( soupy cloud conditions.) It's not an enviable place to be!
 
C182 holds a lot of fuel, especially if he had the long range tanks. If he topped off in JAX fuel would not have been a factor. IF he topped off.
At 4000' he would have burned more fuel than if he were at oh, say ~ 8500'. plus 8500 would have been a safer altitude anyway.
 
Just read that the family of the 3 passengers that were killed in N1839X over Gatlinburg filed a claim against the FAA saying ATC didn't do enough to save them. Firstcoastnews.com has the story.
 
Just read that the family of the 3 passengers that were killed in N1839X over Gatlinburg filed a claim against the FAA saying ATC didn't do enough to save them. Firstcoastnews.com has the story.

Is there a prelim NTSB report out for this? Was he on flight following? Even if he was, I'm sure he was already well below MVA.
 
There is a NTSB prelim report out. I believe it was posted earlier in this thread and from what I heard, he was on flight following.
 
Just read that the family of the 3 passengers that were killed in N1839X over Gatlinburg filed a claim against the FAA saying ATC didn't do enough to save them. Firstcoastnews.com has the story.

Sounds like the family is grasping for straws hoping to become independently wealthy.
 
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