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Instrument. Far more useful than any of the other endorsements you mentioned, which frankly can all be had by the stroke of a pen in a matter of hours.
 
StraightnLevel said:
That makes sense. In your experience, would it be helpful to do the IR flight portion in a complex plane, or is it equally useful to continue in a basic trainer, i.e. Cherokee?
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It’s equally useful to continue in a basic trainer. Learn the principles, get the rating, and then jump into a “complex” aircraft and gain proficiency with instrument procedures.

Spoiler - you’ll really just be swinging gear up and down and learning about a constant speed propeller, which shouldn’t take more than 3-5 hours; the high performance endorsement is just training you to have a heavier right foot. :)
 
If you have access to a good complex airplane, I'd say do the complex endorsement first then do some cross-countries in it to build some experience without unfamiliar airports and working with ATC. When you get back into the slower, simpler trainer for your instrument rating you will be accustom to a faster and more complex airplane and flying the simpler trainer will not see as difficult and you'll have an easier time learning the new instrument procedures and precision.
 
What I did was fly to airports 50+ nm away on flight following. It made comms a non-issue during IR, and allowed me to fly back to back approaches instead of churning away straight and level to build all the required XC PIC time under the hood.

Tailwheel, HP, and complex training was fun, too.
 
StraightnLevel said:
I'm within a couple of weeks of my PPL checkride, so I'm starting to think about the follow-on work. For my goals, I know that I will need to add on instrument and complex, likely high performance, possibly multi and/or pressurized (depends on the plane I end up buying).

What should I take into consideration regarding the order of getting the "add-on" certs and endorsements? Is there a good reason to try to do them in a certain order, parallel certain parts, or is it all just putting in time sequentially? Is there any reason to not get all of the above just for the sake of knowing as much as possible from a safety standpoint?

Any thoughts and input would be appreciated - thanks in advance.
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Alot depends on what you intend to do with you PPL and how big a budget you have. I was advised that you shouldn't rush into an IFR rating without having some practical VFR stick time first. How much is up to you. I don't agree that you can get an IFR rating in a couple of hours and a signature. That doesn't make sense. But I admit there are accelerated training programs that are relatively fast and cost effective. If you plan on a lot of flying and making frequent trips on time in marginal weather, then an instrument rating rating is a must. But remember using that rating in IMC is a higher risk endeavor, and requires more costly maintenance and more routine flying and practice time. It all depends on what you intend to do.
 
William Pete Hodges said:
I don't agree that you can get an IFR rating in a couple of hours and a signature. That doesn't make sense.
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He was saying that the other endorsements suggested in lieu of IR training (high performance and complex) were only going to require a small amount of training.
 
StraightnLevel said:
I have properties in 3 different states and family in two more. Distances are such that I don't feel comfortable with the idea of traveling these without IFR training.

Similarly, a basic PA28 or C172 isn't going to work for these distances, so I probably will end up buying some combination of complex, multi, high performance. Since there's no point in buying something I can't fly legally, I need to get the certs/endorsements first, i.e., now. Then I will buy a XC machine and use that plane to build time.

Training budget is effectively irrelevant. I don't want to waste money, but I'm far more concerned about wasting time. I'll gladly pay more to get it done faster.
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Figure out what airplane will work, buy it, and start working on your instrument rating concurrently with whatever endorsements are necessary. If you’re not going to fly between your properties without instrument training, take your instructor along and make those trips instrument training. If you’re staying a while, either airline the instructor back and forth, or let him take the airplane back and forth.
 
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I'd recommend getting some post-PPL VFR XC experience to broaden your flight planning, in-flight decision-making, and ATC skills, then starting on your instrument rating when you have time to commit. Getting some flying experience will help you better understand what kind of aircraft and practical mission you might be looking at for the future. Right now, you may not know what you don't know.
 
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soarohio said:
Get your IFR. Insurance is going to required 10-25 hours in type so might as well get complex/multi in the airplane you buy.
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:yeahthat:

There's no point in getting endorsements you don't need, with the possible exception of tailwheel, but that's later. When you buy a plane, unless it's a trainer, the insurance company will require at LEAST 10 hours with a CFI, which is MORE than enough time to knock out any endorsements you need.

I'm amazed by the number of people who have asked to use my plane to get their complex & HP. Why? What a waste of time.

After I got my PPL, I set a goal of visiting every airport in my state (which I'm still frustratingly close to completing). I used flight following for every flight. By the time I started my IR, I had more than enough XC time, was comfortable talking to ATC, and had seen a variety of airports, which isn't necessary for the IR, but is helpful when travelling.

I usually recommend doing your IR before you buy. Makes insurance easier/cheaper, and the IR is a difficult rating, as is learning how to own an airplane. Doing both concurrently would be a lot to take on.

StraightnLevel said:
1) How do I buy a plane and fly it home if I'm not certified/endorsed to fly it?
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You take a CFI with you. Even if it's not required it's a good idea to have someone with some experience go with you on your first flight of any new type.
 
StraightnLevel said:
As I said above, checkride is already scheduled. Waiting until then to plan next steps is like waiting to cross the runway threshhold before starting your descent. Sure you can wait, but it just wastes time.
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Wastes time? Yeah, sure.

What’s the deadline you’re up against?
 
StraightnLevel said:
Good thought. This raises a couple of questions.

1) How do I buy a plane and fly it home if I'm not certified/endorsed to fly it?

2) I've read statements that some multis are not well suited for training. While training in my own plane makes a lot of sense from a learning perspective, does it work if it's just not a good training platform?
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1) get an instructor. You don’t seem to think that flying without one is a good idea anyway.

2) clearly your goal is not to be a well-rounded, proficient pilot, so good training platforms shouldn’t be an issue, either.
 
StraightnLevel said:
2) I've read statements that some multis are not well suited for training. While training in my own plane makes a lot of sense from a learning perspective, does it work if it's just not a good training platform?
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If you are considering a Multi that you can't do your rating in than you are looking at planes that a low time pilot should not be flying.
 
The most practical thing to do after passing the private checkride is to start instrument training. If you are strictly VFR, there will be many times when weather will make your travel difficult or impossible, or worse yet, make you take unnecessary risks.

Many times, we have observed people with a firm plan purchase an airplane and find it is not the right one, or their planned use just doesn't happen the way they imaged it. The best advice I have heard is to get your certificate, rent for a while and see how you use an airplane and then look for one suited to your most common use.
 
Instrument. If you are purchasing later, then knowing what equipment you actually need by having experience with it as well as knowing some different brands is going to be useful. Also, slowing down the instrument process/procedures in a trainer is going to be helpful. When you are trying to learn, things can happen too fast at 150-200 kts. Speed can actually impede your progress.

Just from reading accident reports for decades, one factor that keeps popping up is a VFR pilot, maybe only partially IR trained, with a fully decked out hot rock getting himself lured into IMC & removing his DNA from the gene pool. Sometimes it’s hubris. Occasionally it’s desperation from getting trapped on top. Most of the time it doesn’t end well.

Get the instrument.
 
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IFR is the conventional choice (and probably for a good reason). I got obsessed with VFR flying after getting my plane right after PPL and constantly doing XCs and skipped ifr training (and I regret it).
The rest of the endorsements you'll be able to knock out collectively in like 2 days, so it's not even worth planning around those. Literally just take 1 weekend of nice rental planes and a CFI and get 'em done. I got my complex in 1 day and my HP in <4 hours.

Not sure if/where you want to pencil in your multi rating.

As for buying. I agree with Skyrys. There's no rush.
Also, I don't think it's mentioned yet but your insurance co will help you decide which plane is right for you.
For instance, you mention pressurized/high-altitude in your initial post. That probably will not be an option for a while.
I don't think many insurance co's are going to be excited about putting you in a pressurized PA46, P210 or the like for a low time pilot.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Thanks - this is helpful.

Honestly, I am very apprehensive about flying any significant distance cross-country without the instrument training. It just seems like it would be tempting fate.
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It can be done, and very safely - but not in a restricted timeline. With appropriate decision-making skills, it is relatively easy, even, to fly long-distance cross-country entirely VFR. However, there will be weather delays.

If I had your kind of cash when I was close to finishing my PPL, I would have started studying IFR stuff while flying VFR trips for three or four months. You get a headstart on learning terms and such and you're moving towards your next goal (which I would assume to be IR), but you can still destress, enjoy your certificate, and do some fun flying not in sole pursuit of a rating. It will get you comfortable with being PIC and/or solo, give you some real-world decision-making experiences, and hopefully make you some great memories.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Thanks - this is helpful.

Honestly, I am very apprehensive about flying any significant distance cross-country without the instrument training. It just seems like it would be tempting fate.
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If you have good ADM the worst fate you'll be tempting on a VFR XC is encountering occasional inconvenience and delays.

As a new PPL, doing longer XCs is liberating. It's a great way to build hours while getting new experiences and seeing new places. Plus it makes you feel like a real pilot when you go somewhere and you no longer have to ask permission :cool:
 
I’m probably different…after getting my private certificate, I wanted the option to go places in something more capable than a 172. My FBO had a 182 and an Arrow, so I spent a few Buck and got the endorsements for both…wasn’t more than maybe 10-12 hours for both. Then I did my instrument rating - the first part in the simulator and the rest in the 172. After my instrument rating, I focused on what plane to buy and ended up a Bonanza owner…haven’t regretted it for a moment.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Honestly, I am very apprehensive about flying any significant distance cross-country without the instrument training. It just seems like it would be tempting fate.
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Not really. Without my IR, the decisions were easy, black & white one might say. “No-go” was easy, and less tempting of fate with a “go” decision due to conservatism.

After the IR, you need to use better judgement. Your skill proficiency, plane’s condition, and consideration of how sure prediction of nature’s forces will be if you launch are much more “tempting fate” as you say.

You won’t appreciate it at this time.
 
The next thing you should do is what interests you the most right now. Your priorities are going to change as your experience grows. Enjoy the journey.

IMO getting IR without having done a bunch of vfr leaves you with big gaps. All IR really does for me is let me bust through a cloud layer. Most anything else is too high risk to be worth it. Figuring out how to do what you want safely in vfr is just as valuable.
 
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StraightnLevel said:
Looking at my personal goals, flying between any two of my three residences is 800+ nm. That's not something I am going to attempt without IR training, a solid plan, and near-perfect weather for the first trip. I know that it can be done VFR, but I want to be prepared for whatever circumstances may arise. Until I'm ready for those trips, my training will not be complete.
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I have pretty much 4 cornered the continental US in VFR only aircraft, largely on a schedule. What you will find if you’re honest with yourself is that not having an instrument rating or a VFR only aircraft is not the limiter you think it is as a fresh private pilot.

When asked the same question, I tell all my students the same thing that Maule stated. Go fly and figure things out before jumping into more training right away.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Honestly, I am very apprehensive about flying any significant distance cross-country without the instrument training. It just seems like it would be tempting fate.
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That all depends on how much time you have. I’m way out of currency with IFR and my light sport isn’t equipped anyway. But I enjoy long trips…without a time table. Having good weather skills and a sense of one’s limitations is the important thing…after lots of time to wait out any event.

When the buying decision comes, consider carefully your typical mission profile, not the extreme imaginings of a new pilot. There are a lot of pilots flying a Cherokee Six by themselves who started off imagining that it would be fun for the whole family. Watching dad heroically battle the elements while getting bounced around backseat of a hot cabin has limited interest for a teenager. Wives know what dufusses we all can be, so they’re unwilling to risk their unique genetic creations to your flying skills.

I do feel compelled to mention also that, as part of your buying process, you should consider that Southwest can get you anywhere in the US for $500. Any day, in all weather. $500 bucks doesn’t get you very far with most twins or high performance singles.

That’s the reason I lean toward the STOL & putt-putt end of the flying spectrum. I actually use this airplane far more than my Comanche, which has longer legs and was faster, but isn’t as versatile for an old guy hitting grass strip pancake breakfasts.
 
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One of our neighbors got his private ticket, bought a Cherokee, and within two years had flown to all of the lower 48 states - landed in each one - VFR the entire way. Another neighbor has done that in his Stearman, rarely going above 1500 AGL.
 
Vince R said:
I’m probably different…after getting my private certificate, I wanted the option to go places in something more capable than a 172. My FBO had a 182 and an Arrow, so I spent a few Buck and got the endorsements for both…wasn’t more than maybe 10-12 hours for both. Then I did my instrument rating - the first part in the simulator and the rest in the 172. After my instrument rating, I focused on what plane to buy and ended up a Bonanza owner…haven’t regretted it for a moment.
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That was kind of what I did, too. My part 61 flight school has a retractable 182 that nobody ever rents because it's $50/hr more than the 172. I did some quick math and discovered there's a break-even point where the additional speed makes the R182 a better deal for travel (lower cost per mile,) so I jumped into complex/HP training for ~10 hours and had this plane available for overnight trips, usually at a moment's notice, and without depriving any primary students of their trainer. I ended up building about 30 hours PIC XC time in that one before starting Instrument.
 
mondtster said:
I have pretty much 4 cornered the continental US in VFR only aircraft, largely on a schedule. What you will find if you’re honest with yourself is that not having an instrument rating or a VFR only aircraft is not the limiter you think it is as a fresh private pilot.
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Outside of FIKI, RADAR-equipped airplanes, I don’t think my as-scheduled IFR trips have had a higher percentage than my as-scheduled VFR trips.
 
RyanB said:
Spoiler - you’ll really just be swinging gear up and down and learning about a constant speed propeller
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Well, there was also that uncomfortable conversation about peeing into the hydraulic fluid reservoir...
 
asicer said:
Well, there was also that uncomfortable conversation about peeing into the hydraulic fluid reservoir..
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…or flying long enough for engine heat to warm up the hydraulic fluid so the gear retracts fully.
 
Every added rating and every upgraded aircraft has only one real impact on your flying: They make your decision making and flight planning more complicated. Keep that in mind as you add to your capabilities, both as a pilot and as an airplane owner.

As far as what ratings, endorsements, and equipment to get, your mission will drive that. And as a new private pilot, you won’t really know your mission as well as you think. My advice is to get a plane that can accomplish the mission of helping you define your mission. For me, an Arrow fit the bill. I traveled a bunch and learned which capabilities I needed and which I didn’t. I had to buy because renting was hard in my area and I did need a bit more speed than the one rental option had.

You absolutely should get as much instruction in the plane you buy as you can, as opposed to renting a plane to get endorsements or ratings. Insurance companies want you to have instruction in type anyhow, but they don’t specify that it has to be dedicated to transitioning into the plane. I got my complex endorsement and instrument rating in the Arrow and even double dipped those hours quite a bit. And then flew a few hundred more hours in that plane while I learned what I really needed.
 
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