$14,500 annual!!

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yachtjim

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Jim
Took my plane in for annual. Was pretty perfect as far as I knew, lots of upgrades since I bought it last year. Was prepping myself for a $3k annual. Bought the plane with low hours since overhaul so I would not have to deal with a huge surprise expense. My plan backfired In a big way. Apparently in a year I need new landing gear (from pitting), new exhaust, new starter, new engine gaskets, helicoils in the heads, new aileron, new engine mounts and lots more. I bought it last year and used the annual as my pre-buy.

The plane was babied all year and mostly used for 3 hour cc flights. The previous owner used it 20 hours a year. I put 140 hours on it in the last 12 months. Pretty down on the whole ga experience right now....
 
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Wow.... I woulda wanted a 2nd opinion.... Was your mechanic wearing a white lab coat?
 
It looks to be a young guy full of **** and vinegar. The guy that did it last year was overseeing him. I think the new guy has a better magnifying glass.
 
Oh, I thought my plane was in my sig. It is a 1964 Cherokee 180.
 
Ask him to provide the tolerances and specs to defend his opinion re airworthiness of the stuff he wants to replace.
 
DO NOT, NOT, NOT LET THIS MECHANIC DO THE ANNUAL INSPECTION.

I cannot say that loudly enough. I was fleeced in this same way (well, mine was only $5000, on a Piper Warrior -- but this was in the 1990s), and if I knew then what I know now, I would have politely told the shop to put it all together and LEFT.

It turned out that (unknown to me) the shop was going bankrupt. They used me, a new owner, to prolong their agony another few months.

DO NOT, NOT, NOT LET THEM DO THIS ANNUAL INSPECTION.
 
Save everyone else. NAME the SHOP.
Be specific about highlightable items, too....
 
FWIW, my plane had a new engine (4 SMOH), new propeller (4 SMOH), landing gear overhauled (4 SMOH), and new rigging (4 SMOH). Had $3K put into overhauling the gauges etc.. 1st annual (at 7 SMOH) was $11,500 everything they charged for needed to be done and was reasonable. Finding a mechanic who will let you do the grunt work is the key to airplane ownership on a budget. I talked with the shop who did the Annual and he gave me a list of things he "still wanted to do" all of them I agreed with.
 
yachtjim said:
Took my plane in for annual. Was pretty perfect as far as I knew, lots of upgrades since I bought it last year. Was prepping myself for a $3k annual. Bought the plane with low hours since overhaul so I would not have to deal with a huge surprise expense. My plan backfired In a big way. Apparently in a year I need new landing gear (from pitting), new exhaust, new starter, new engine gaskets, helicoils in the heads, new ailerons, new engine mounts and lots more. I bought it last year and used the annual as my pre-buy.

The plane was babied all year and mostly used for 3 hour cc flights. The previous owner used it 20 hours a year. I put 140 hours on it in the last 12 months. Pretty down on the whole ga experience right now....
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:hairraise::hairraise::hairraise::hairraise::hairraise::eek::eek::eek::eek:.

RUN..... AS fast as you can..... The other way..:yesnod:
 
New engine gaskets??????

How's your Framus rods?
 
It does not need new muffler bearings. Whe I said engine gaskets I am specifically referring to the exhaust gaskets and the main engine shaft gasket. Both of which are leaking. The gear struts are pitted but have been for years. They work fine. The starter has some play in it that will allow the gears to slight grind if it the bendix does not retract all the way. The front gear arm has a crack in the welds on each side. You pretty much need a magnifying glass to see them. One aileron has a crack on the trailing edge that is about half an inch long. One brake rotor has a crack in it. The brakes on one side need to be replaced. The plates on the front and back of the prop need to be replaced because the holes are elongated. The plugs need to be replaced. The shroud around the exhaust for the carb heat needs to be replaced. The engine mounts are cracked and need to be replaced. The carb heat hose has a hole in it and needs to be replaced. I think the actual exhaust tube from the muffler needs to be replaced. It is a long list of stuff. I have seen everything the mechanic is pointing out, and I would be surprised if all of these issues appeared in a year.

What I think are real issues is the carb heat hose, muffler shroud for carb heat, broken brake rotor, and shaft seal. I know this company is not trying to fleece me because I am friends with the owner. But I do think there may be an over zealous mechanic checking out this old plane. And judging by the body language I was seeing it's not really the owner's place to tell the a&p what to put on the report, so his hands seemed to be tied.
 
yachtjim said:
It does not need new muffler bearings. Whe I said engine gaskets I am specifically referring to the exhaust gaskets and the main engine shaft gasket. Both of which are leaking. The gear struts are pitted but have been for years. They work fine. The starter has some play in it that will allow the gears to slight grind if it the bendix does not retract all the way. The front gear arm has a crack in the welds on each side. You pretty much need a magnifying glass to see them. One aileron has a crack on the trailing edge that is about half an inch long. One brake rotor has a crack in it. The brakes on one side need to be replaced. The plates on the front and back of the prop need to be replaced because the holes are elongated. The plugs need to be replaced. The shroud around the exhaust for the carb heat needs to be replaced. The engine mounts are cracked and need to be replaced. The carb heat hose has a hole in it and needs to be replaced. I think the actual exhaust tube from the muffler needs to be replaced. It is a long list of stuff. I have seen everything the mechanic is pointing out, and I would be surprised if all of these issues appeared in a year.

What I think are real issues is the carb heat hose, muffler shroud for carb heat, broken brake rotor, and shaft seal. I know this company is not trying to fleece me because I am friends with the owner. But I do think there may be an over zealous mechanic checking out this old plane. And judging by the body language I was seeing it's not really the owner's place to tell the a&p what to put on the report, so his hands seemed to be tied.
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The real issues are the cracked gear and engine mount. Cracks in stuff like that are serious business and can be catastrophic. Just because "you need a magnifying glass" means nothing; the outfit I work for spends many thousands per year on professional NDI inspections to find those invisible little cracks that can result in a wing or engine leaving the airplane in flight. And elongated prop plate holes are a sign of some bad, bad stuff. I'd be surprised if the crank flange isn't damaged, too.

The real problem appears to be some really cheapskate maintenance in the past. Stuff like this accumulates until some sharp-eyed inspector gets the job and starts digging. That's not to say that he might be a bit too conservative, mind you. There are lots of those guys. But as a mechanic myself, I have seen some serious stuff that the owner did not consider serious, but the owner also doesn't see the accident reports of people dying in airplanes that failed them because of "little" stuff like this.

Dan
 
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What the heck was done at the pre-buy? Cracked aileron and brake disk in one year. Exhaust gone to heck in one year.

fishy.
 
Pretty clear a good hose job has already been done on the owner, so that shouldn't be on this year's list.

docmirror said:
What the heck was done at the pre-buy? Cracked aileron and brake disk in one year. Exhaust gone to heck in one year.

fishy.
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docmirror said:
What the heck was done at the pre-buy? Cracked aileron and brake disk in one year. Exhaust gone to heck in one year.

fishy.
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The exhaust probably didn't go to pieces in one year. It took a long time; the previous inspections were inadequate, as was the prebuy. We once bought a 172 that had just had an "annual;" two of the four exhaust stacks were cracked three-quarters of the way around at the cylinder flanges when I took the cowl off to check it out before we bought it. As operators of several 172s, I knew what the weak spots were and knew where to go to find them, and there they were, sure enough. Had to come back later with a bunch of new exhaust parts just so we could get it home. And after a 2-1/2 hour flight, I did the compression checks just to see if the previous owner really had been getting the "good" maintenance he'd been told he was getting, and found that none of the cylinders were much above 60 and one was just over 40. All rejects. We were replacing the engine anyway. The oil cooler and fuel hoses were as solid as wood, they were so old. The discrepancies piled up quickly, but it was nothing worse than we'd seen before.

Dan
 
Oh well. No free lunch. Sorry but it'll be a better plane on the other end. Ask if you can do some of the grunt work to lower the bill.
 
I wonder if he bought it 14,500 under market, the cheap aircraft are the ones you can't afford to own.
 
How do we know the "crack" is nothing more than a mold mark?

Dan Thomas said:
The real issues are the cracked gear and engine mount. Cracks in stuff like that are serious business and can be catastrophic. Just because "you need a magnifying glass" means nothing; the outfit I work for spends many thousands per year on professional NDI inspections to find those invisible little cracks that can result in a wing or engine leaving the airplane in flight. And elongated prop plate holes are a sign of some bad, bad stuff. I'd be surprised if the crank flange isn't damaged, too.

The real problem appears to be some really cheapskate maintenance in the past. Stuff like this accumulates until some sharp-eyed inspector gets the job and starts digging. That's not to say that he might be a bit too conservative, mind you. There are lots of those guys. But as a mechanic myself, I have seen some serious stuff that the owner did not consider serious, but the owner also doesn't see the accident reports of people dying in airplanes that failed them because of "little" stuff like this.

Dan
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You're being taken to the cleaners. How come guys with annual for pre-buys have cracked gear and engine mounts and a dumb***** like myself buys two airplanes with timed out engines without prebuys and manage to keep the annuals under 4 grand and not fall out of the sky?

My A&P did quote me 5 grand on the annual for the warrior. Got it down to 2 grand. Most of the stuff was padding the labor on non essentials. We all gotta make a living but outside airworthiness directed stuff, there's a lot of fluff out there. Patching up these model T fords can be expensive if you go carte blanche on it. It sure doesn't have to be that way, from an utilitarian POV.

I understand the hobby is expensive, but if we are to accept such outcomes as reasonable and expected, I'd be the first one to fold shop and pursue other interests. No way those inspection cost numbers are reasonable. The plane didn't fall into disarray in one year, especially being flown 140 hours. Take your business elsewhere.
 
yachtjim said:
It does not need new muffler bearings. Whe I said engine gaskets I am specifically referring to the exhaust gaskets and the main engine shaft gasket. Both of which are leaking. The gear struts are pitted but have been for years. They work fine. The starter has some play in it that will allow the gears to slight grind if it the bendix does not retract all the way. The front gear arm has a crack in the welds on each side. You pretty much need a magnifying glass to see them. One aileron has a crack on the trailing edge that is about half an inch long. One brake rotor has a crack in it. The brakes on one side need to be replaced. The plates on the front and back of the prop need to be replaced because the holes are elongated. The plugs need to be replaced. The shroud around the exhaust for the carb heat needs to be replaced. The engine mounts are cracked and need to be replaced. The carb heat hose has a hole in it and needs to be replaced. I think the actual exhaust tube from the muffler needs to be replaced. It is a long list of stuff. I have seen everything the mechanic is pointing out, and I would be surprised if all of these issues appeared in a year.

What I think are real issues is the carb heat hose, muffler shroud for carb heat, broken brake rotor, and shaft seal. I know this company is not trying to fleece me because I am friends with the owner. But I do think there may be an over zealous mechanic checking out this old plane. And judging by the body language I was seeing it's not really the owner's place to tell the a&p what to put on the report, so his hands seemed to be tied.
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And none of this was detected at the pre-buy?
 
yachtjim said:
Took my plane in for annual. Was pretty perfect as far as I knew, lots of upgrades since I bought it last year. Was prepping myself for a $3k annual. Bought the plane with low hours since overhaul so I would not have to deal with a huge surprise expense. My plan backfired In a big way. Apparently in a year I need new landing gear (from pitting), new exhaust, new starter, new engine gaskets, helicoils in the heads, new ailerons, new engine mounts and lots more. I bought it last year and used the annual as my pre-buy.

The plane was babied all year and mostly used for 3 hour cc flights. The previous owner used it 20 hours a year. I put 140 hours on it in the last 12 months. Pretty down on the whole ga experience right now....
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1. Where are you located?
2. Which items are specifically un-airworthy and which are "should be done but not a crisis"?
 
No highlightable items. Hmmm. Sounds like an inadequate pre-purchase annual/inspection or none at all.

Babying a bird that has been pencil whipped in the past doesn't mean you'll have a reasonable annual, at all.

I post this again and again from time to time.....did you do any of it?
How are you gong to know if you never looked?
If you never looked, how can you be upset about the nasty surprise that follows?

My first annual on the Seneca cost about $31,000. But I knew all about that and bid down appropriately.
 

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bbchien said:
No highlightable items. Hmmm. Sounds like an inadequate pre-purchase annual/inspection or none at all.

Babying a bird that has been pencil whipped in the past doesn't mean you'll have a reasonable annual, at all.

I post this again and again from time to time.....did you do any of it?
How are you gong to know if you never looked?
If you never looked, how can you be upset about the nasty surprise that follows?

My first annual on the Seneca cost about $31,000. But I knew all about that and bid down appropriately.
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When we bought it we had it annualled by my friends shop, but a different a&p at this shop. Everything on the list was addressed. This particular annual came to less than 4k. I am in the boat biz and know the importance of the pre-buy and how to use it as a negotiating tool. The only thing not done at that time was the landing gear. But the current owner said its been pitted like that since he has had it and works fine. In the year I have owned it I would agree.

We did pay market price for the plane. 38k. It was described by everybody as a cream puff. Old of course, but in very good condition for a plane of this age. Mostly all re-done in '99.

I would agree that certain cracks could be catastrophic. When I say engine mount cracks I am referring to the rubber shock mounts. They are cracking. I am not referring to any of the metal structure. The cracks on the front strut arm are tiny and something I could easily watch to see if they are getting any worse now that they are identified.

I am sure if this kid did the inspection last year most of this stuff would have come up then. Like the threads in the spark plug holes. This kid says at least one of them needs a new helicoil because it does not have as many threads as the others. But it is clear that it has not changed over the years. It is not like threads are disappearing.
 
yachtjim said:
When we bought it we had it annualled by my friends shop, but a different a&p at this shop. Everything on the list was addressed. This particular annual came to less than 4k. I am in the boat biz and know the importance of the pre-buy and how to use it as a negotiating tool. The only thing not done at that time was the landing gear. But the current owner said its been pitted like that since he has had it and works fine. In the year I have owned it I would agree.

We did pay market price for the plane. 38k. It was described by everybody as a cream puff. Old of course, but in very good condition for a plane of this age. Mostly all re-done in '99.

I would agree that certain cracks could be catastrophic. When I say engine mount cracks I am referring to the rubber shock mounts. They are cracking. I am not referring to any of the metal structure. The cracks on the front strut arm are tiny and something I could easily watch to see if they are getting any worse now that they are identified.

I am sure if this kid did the inspection last year most of this stuff would have come up then. Like the threads in the spark plug holes. This kid says at least one of them needs a new helicoil because it does not have as many threads as the others. But it is clear that it has not changed over the years. It is not like threads are disappearing.
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Has "the kid" completed the "repair" work yet?

Did he start it with your permission?
 
bartmc said:
FWIW, my plane had a new engine (4 SMOH), new propeller (4 SMOH), landing gear overhauled (4 SMOH), and new rigging (4 SMOH). Had $3K put into overhauling the gauges etc.. 1st annual (at 7 SMOH) was $11,500 everything they charged for needed to be done and was reasonable. Finding a mechanic who will let you do the grunt work is the key to airplane ownership on a budget. I talked with the shop who did the Annual and he gave me a list of things he "still wanted to do" all of them I agreed with.
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Or buy an experimental and do the work yourself legally with cheaper non certified parts. ;)

The same starter would cost me $300 that on a certified plane would be $1200. The same exact starter.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
Has "the kid" completed the "repair" work yet?

Did he start it with your permission?
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No he hasn't. I don't have 14k in the slush fund so I need to figure out alternatives. I might be sweeping their floors for the next 2 years :hairraise:
 
yachtjim said:
No he hasn't. I don't have 14k in the slush fund so I need to figure out alternatives. I might be sweeping their floors for the next 2 years :hairraise:
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That's good. You need to find someone to help you take control of the situation and separate out the "must haves", the "nice to haves", and the truly unnecessary repairs.

Also, you can find a different mechanic to perform any work you wish separate from the annual.
 
wabower said:
How do we know the "crack" is nothing more than a mold mark?
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Anyone who knows the difference can tell a crack from a mold line. A strong enough magnifier is usually enough. If there's doubt, dye penetrant will confirm or deny it.

Dan
 
I got a "pro-forma" from a Beech Service Center for $17,900 2 years ago on a Bonanza...had them sign it off un-airworthy...took the plane up the road to a "normal" shop....the SAME list was corrected for $4200.

GET YOUR PLANE OUTTA THERE
 
taters said:
I got a "pro-forma" from a Beech Service Center for $17,900 2 years ago on a Bonanza...had them sign it off un-airworthy...took the plane up the road to a "normal" shop....the SAME list was corrected for $4200.

GET YOUR PLANE OUTTA THERE
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Yeah, that. :thumbup:

Sent from my Nexus 7
 
It seems to me you feel all the repairs he is recommending are needed. If you are uncertain, even slightly so, get a second opinion. If you are certain, then I would bargain. If things were missed at the prebuy annual I would use this as a bargaining chip, if you trust the shop. I am always hesitant to try to bargain down someone who is working on my plane. I have learned a long time ago that you get what you pay for, and the shop is there to make a living, and if their prices are reasonable then if you bargain down they may cut some corners. If it worth it, offer to do some of the work yourself.

Just my 2 cents, which may not be worth in this overprice economy.

Good luck.

Doug
 
This is (to me) a prime example of why people drop out of GA. No one wants an unsafe/unairworthy airplane, but there is a lot of difference of opinion between different mechanics of what constitutes that. Mechanics need to be cognizant of the fact that they are dealing with old airplanes and everything won't be just like new. However, on the mechanics side, if they sign off on something then somebody goes out and crashes, a lawyer may spend weeks or months trying to find something questionable the mechanic thought was okay and the mechanic's insurance then has to pay. Is there a way out of this quagmire??
 
douglas393 said:
It seems to me you feel all the repairs he is recommending are needed. If you are uncertain, even slightly so, get a second opinion. If you are certain, then I would bargain. If things were missed at the prebuy annual I would use this as a bargaining chip, if you trust the shop. I am always hesitant to try to bargain down someone who is working on my plane. I have learned a long time ago that you get what you pay for, and the shop is there to make a living, and if their prices are reasonable then if you bargain down they may cut some corners. If it worth it, offer to do some of the work yourself.

Just my 2 cents, which may not be worth in this overprice economy.

Good luck.

Doug
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There is also a difference between bargaining down and finding a different mechanic to perform the actual work.

Expensive does not necessarily mean high quality.

Some of the sloppiest work I ever paid for was also the most expensive (and at a factory authorized center, to boot.)
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
There is also a difference between bargaining down and finding a different mechanic to perform the actual work.

Expensive does not necessarily mean high quality.

Some of the sloppiest work I ever paid for was also the most expensive (and at a factory authorized center, to boot.)
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Point well taken, but assuming he trusts the shop to being honest, then I stand by my point. If he does not trust the shop, even if it owned by his friend I would get the plane out of there ASAP.

I have found that the factory authorized shops(and I think for the most part what you mean is dealer associated shops) are always the most expensive and often the sloppiest. I will only take any of my vehicles to these places only if I have no choice, typically warranty work and the sort.

Doug
 
douglas393 said:
Point well taken, but assuming he trusts the shop to being honest, then I stand by my point. If he does not trust the shop, even if it owned by his friend I would get the plane out of there ASAP.
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Absolutely.

douglas393 said:
I have found that the factory authorized shops(and I think for the most part what you mean is dealer associated shops) are always the most expensive and often the sloppiest. I will only take any of my vehicles to these places only if I have no choice, typically warranty work and the sort.

Doug
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No, I meant an authorized service center (by Mooney, in this case.)
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
No, I meant an authorized service center (by Mooney, in this case.)
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Sorry. Have not dealt with a authorized service center for work on my Cessna, but was referred to the one in Orlando by Cessna when I had some questions, and they were less than useless. Their advice cost me about $2000. Live and learn. So my plane is worked on by the country bumpkins at my field and after I left the first one(long story) and went to the other guys on the field I have not been happier. Again, live and learn.

Doug
 
$14,500 annual! Welcome to the average price of a PA46 annual (I've had many that were a lot more). I'm doing my Malibu annual now, what makes it bad is that I still have to pay for the parts.

I would take the plane away and I hope it doesn't cause a stink with the shop. Over the last 35 years I have sent a few planes away that were to expensive for the owner. I will make the whole exit as easy as I can. There are other ways of dealing with the paperwork issues too.
 
That's why I brought it up. I've seen enough question-mark
"cracks" to know that it's sometimes impossible to tell without penetrant.

Dan Thomas said:
Anyone who knows the difference can tell a crack from a mold line. A strong enough magnifier is usually enough. If there's doubt, dye penetrant will confirm or deny it.

Dan
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