$14,500 annual!!

[weilke]

My God, I am taking some awesome notes in this thread. It for sure sounds like you need to get your plane out of there. Have you asked on here for any recommended A&Ps?

The key note to take away from this thread is never to take your plane to an IA that you dont know the track record of (by talking to other local owners etc.).
Also dont have an IA work on your plane who has a boat payment due, same applies to vascular surgeons :wink2: .

 

[BillyBH]

Why ?? they are over E-bay.

the compass ferry fixes them and sells them on E-bay

You've written it twice now, so you obviously can't spell it. You are referring to a "fairy", the mythical little creature, not the boat across the river, a ferry, right?

 

[PilotAlan]

The key ... is never to take your plane to an IA that you dont know the track record of (by talking to other local owners etc.).

Truer words have never been spoken.

I got nailed my first annual. That IA is nownow being sued by several owners, he had a habit of disassembling airplanes and holding them hostage for huge bills.
And refusing to put them back together so the owner could take them to another airport.

Thankfully he only got me for $2200, one guy with a Bonanza is out $6k and still doesn't have a flyable plane.


Sent from my DROID RAZR Maxx with Tapatalk 2

 

[N801BH]

.... I was in the shop today, all of them were in a meeting apparently discussing my plane. The service manager said to make sure that all the parts have a yellow tag or sticker.

Wanna bet they will bill you for the man hours they ran up holding that meeting too..

If you have not moved your plane to another location tonight you deserve to get a royal screwing...... Geez.... 99% of the people on here have suggested you bail on that shop.. What are ya waiting for..

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Wanna bet they will bill you for the man hours they ran up holding that meeting too..

If you have not moved your plane to another location tonight you deserve to get a royal screwing...... Geez.... 99% of the people on here have suggested you bail on that shop.. What are ya waiting for..

And the shop knows damn well that none of them will have a yellow tag.

The game is underway.

 

[yachtjim]

My observation: you don't seem like an appropriate fit for their business model, particularly when the whole shop is having a meeting to discuss how to handle a perceived "difficult" customer who wheedles down their estimate, brings in his own parts, and tries to substitute his own mechanics from a non-aviation shop. That's like scab work in some eyes.

They are not meeting to decide how to deal with a difficult customer. I am on a first named basis with everybody in the shop. It is my friend's shop for Christ sake. They are meeting to figure out how none of this stuff appeared last year when they did the pre-buy and how its all there now, who effed up, and who is going to sign off on it. This keeps circling back to the new guy doing the annual and not the guy that did it last year that knows the plane. My fault for not specifying who should do the annual apparently. I just figured they'd put the person most familiar with it on the job. Now that we are in the mess I am simply trying to help them find solutions. Nobody wants to charge me 12K to put this plane back up in the air. They are all feeling pretty bad about the whole situation. But now that the new guy has identified these issues they all have to roll with it.

I don't know why you don't take the advice offered long ago in this thread and get your plane away from them.

My plane is a pile of parts right now. Why would I abandon trying to work something out with them, throw away what I have spent already, and expose myself to another shop that may find the same stuff?

If you have not moved your plane to another location tonight you deserve to get a royal screwing...... Geez.... 99% of the people on here have suggested you bail on that shop.. What are ya waiting for..

If I was able to break into their shop in the middle of the night, assemble my plane, move the 2 planes in front of it, and head out in the dark of night, where is that going to get me? Potentially in the same situation at another shop. It has only been there for a few days. I am surprised so many of you are willing to fly a plane out of annual with parts thrown back on it in a hurry to hopefully get it to someplace else in a rush . I think I will stick to my approach of working it out among reasonable people.

At this point we have narrowed it down to about $7,500. All items are issues I can physically see. Just sucks that they did not point them out last year.

 

[denverpilot]

Let's go back to your original list...

Apparently in a year I need new landing gear (from pitting), new exhaust, new starter, new engine gaskets, helicoils in the heads, new ailerons, new engine mounts and lots more. I bought it last year and used the annual as my pre-buy.

Unless you broke it this year, how can the new guy be at fault? He just found the problems.

Either last year's guy missed most of these items, or you damaged them all in a single year.

New guy just FOUND it, which is the whole point of an annual INSPECTION.

Or, they're working you.

Your comment about saying you think you made a mistake not specifying which mechanic did the annual is ridiculous. Are you really saying you wish you'd told them to use the guy who screwed up the pre-buy inspection so bad that he'd miss things again and put you and your passengers lives at risk?

The whole shop is HIGHLY questionable if they're trying to hang this on the new mechanic. Are you freaking kidding me?

Lets see...

Pitted landing gear - probably didn't happen in a single year.
New exhaust - maybe falls into "stuff happens". They do fail on old aircraft.
New starter - Why? Did the old one quit working or is there an AD or something?
New engine gaskets - Is the engine is leaking oil, or what? Was it leaking all year? Did you even notice?
Helicoils in the heads - WTF?
New ailerons - Even more WTF?! What's wrong with them?
New engine mounts - What was their condition at the pre-buy?
Lots more - Like what?

This list is so insane and your handling of it really makes me wonder if this story is even true. If it is, realize it's that crazy. Crazy enough I'm wondering what the hell these idiots are doing.

Let me guess. If it is a true story, the mechanic who "knows the airplane" was good buddies with the former owner and apparently found a sucker to buy this aircraft who wouldn't hire their own mechanic they trusted for the pre-buy???

What in the hell is really going on here? Are you pulling our legs?

 

[Tom-D]

You've written it twice now, so you obviously can't spell it. You are referring to a "fairy", the mythical little creature, not the boat across the river, a ferry, right?

No I think this FERRY is a boat, no one knows who he is>

 

[yachtjim]

Let's go back to your original list...



Unless you broke it this year, how can the new guy be at fault? He just found the problems.

Either last year's guy missed most of these items, or you damaged them all in a single year.

New guy just FOUND it, which is the whole point of an annual INSPECTION.

Or, they're working you.

Your comment about saying you think you made a mistake not specifying which mechanic did the annual is ridiculous. Are you really saying you wish you'd told them to use the guy who screwed up the pre-buy inspection so bad that he'd miss things again and put you and your passengers lives at risk?

The whole shop is HIGHLY questionable if they're trying to hang this on the new mechanic. Are you freaking kidding me?

Lets see...

Pitted landing gear - probably didn't happen in a single year.
New exhaust - maybe falls into "stuff happens". They do fail on old aircraft.
New starter - Why? Did the old one quit working or is there an AD or something?
New engine gaskets - Is the engine is leaking oil, or what? Was it leaking all year? Did you even notice?
Helicoils in the heads - WTF?
New ailerons - Even more WTF?! What's wrong with them?
New engine mounts - What was their condition at the pre-buy?
Lots more - Like what?

This list is so insane and your handling of it really makes me wonder if this story is even true. If it is, realize it's that crazy. Crazy enough I'm wondering what the hell these idiots are doing.

Let me guess. If it is a true story, the mechanic who "knows the airplane" was good buddies with the former owner and apparently found a sucker to buy this aircraft who wouldn't hire their own mechanic they trusted for the pre-buy???

What in the hell is really going on here? Are you pulling our legs?

Any other ASSumptions you want to make? Sounds like you've got quite a story going. Who said the shop is hanging this on the new guy? I never said that. I am the one hanging it on the new guy. I don't think anybody that owns a 45 year old plane expects everything to be like new. That is why I would prefer the guy that did the pre-buy to do the annual. I have not seen anything on this list that is going to make the plane fall out of the sky. The old guy is more forgiving on an older plane. The old guy seems to be the guy everybody prior to you on this thread has asked me to find. I thought I had found him but the shop assigned somebody else to my plane. Live and learn. I said one aileron has a crack on the trailing edge and the only approved fix was to replace it. Anyway, this thread sure has brought out a bunch of angry people. Thank you to those people that actually provided me helpful insight. I used the opinions here to strengthen my position with the shop. The annual is now down to about $7500 which I am agreeable to. Still high, but even if I took it somewhere else at this point they would have to get to down to $6000 for me to break even, and then I'd still have things that need fixing.

 

[denverpilot]

I may have missed some of your follow up. The one paragraph run-on sentences without breaks are hard to parse. It doesn't really matter if it's the shop or you who thinks the young guy's being too hard on the airplane, really. He found serious problems.

This part I haven't missed...

You think $7500, which is down from an original quote of $14,500, after a "clean" pre-buy from the same guy, only ONE year ago, is good?

Is that fixing all of the items on the original list, or now only some of them? Many of those items took years to develop, or you're the unluckiest person on the planet.

Frankly, you don't want to go easier on an older airframe, you want to inspect it harder. It's not a Ford, and there aren't any off-ramps up there.

It's your airplane. I'm not mad. You didn't answer any of the maintenance specific questions I posed, however. You chose to focus on the young mechanic/old mechanic thing only in your response.

Why did the old mechanic not notify you of these serious maintenance deficiencies when he did the pre-buy?

Change the scenario: If the young mechanic would have done the pre-buy a year ago, would you have purchased the aircraft, or would you have walked away and found one in better condition, with a list like that?

It's your money... If you're agreeable to $7500 and think the pre-buy was done properly after a list like that... Hey, have at it. No skin off my nose.

I'm just challenging your logic in trusting the guy who missed multiple multi-year problems and also you saying now that older airframes should basically be allowed to be "more broken" than newer ones. Really?

Cracks in control surfaces? And landing gear? All in the same year? And engine mounts? And engine seals? Wow.

 

[steingar]

I would have been done with the shop some time before. I may be done with mine for what I consider a bad annual, and it wasn't a quarter what the OP is facing.

 

[zaitcev]

This thread demonstrates why I'm scared ****less of becoming an owner.

One option is to buy a factory-new airplane and then IRAN and generally know every little thing about it. You can buy a Belite for $20k with chute included. Okay, it's an ultralight, but it is an airplane, and costs less than Jim's Cherokee. $80k gets you an actual airplane from a reputable shop, say Aerotrek. For $120k you can get a Champ if you want Certificated iron with direct-drive engine. Get one that matches your budget and never relax maintenance thereafter, until you're bored with it and sell.

 

[murphey]

The key note to take away from this thread is never to take your plane to an IA that you dont know the track record of (by talking to other local owners etc.).
Also dont have an IA work on your plane who has a boat payment due, same applies to vascular surgeons :wink2: .

The second is knowledge - learning the rules of airworthy items and what constitutes an inspection.

 

[denverpilot]

I'll add that I was not trying to be abrasive to the poster other than to try to get his attention.

I'd be REALLY abrasive with that mechanic probably though, AFTER I got my airplane the hell away from him.

Just my opinion. It's a discussion board, after all. Not "ask.com". Haha. Sorry.

Everyone's had moments of "WTF?" with a mechanic. I think pilots in general have to be extra dilligent in asking hard questions as almost the whole "affordable" fleet is getting well past the years the 60s and 70s airplane builders ever thought they'd still be flying.

Cessna ain't selling to the so-called "middle class" anymore, that's for sure. Half a million in today's dollars to replace our Skylane helps keep high MX costs in sad perspective.

 

[yachtjim]

Denver, I just don't get what you're telling me. It seems contradictory. You are saying its good that this new guy has pointed out all of these deficiencies. However you are saying I should be abrasive with the mechanic and get the plane out of there. It seems, by your logic, that I should be thankful the new guy has pointed out every possible thing wrong with this old plane and pay him with a smile. Or are you saying I should get the plane out of there and find a mechanic that will overlook this stuff?

Would I have bought this plane if these things turned up in my pre-buy? If I had to pay for them all then probably not. If the seller would have paid for most or all of the issues then yes.

And what is with you accusing me of using run-on sentences?

 

[wabower]

Compared to Nate's rambling they all look like run-on sentences. Except that his are formatted into about about 50 one-sentence paragraphs.

Denver, I just don't get what you're telling me. It seems contradictory. You are saying its good that this new guy has pointed out all of these deficiencies. However you are saying I should be abrasive with the mechanic and get the plane out of there. It seems, by your logic, that I should be thankful the new guy has pointed out every possible thing wrong with this old plane and pay him with a smile. Or are you saying I should get the plane out of there and find a mechanic that will overlook this stuff?

Would I have bought this plane if these things turned up in my pre-buy? If I had to pay for them all then probably not. If the seller would have paid for most or all of the issues then yes.

And what is with you accusing me of using run-on sentences?

 

[denverpilot]

You started the thread with a $14,500 bill one year after a clean pre-buy. No matter how you swing it, the shop isn't trustworthy. Period. End of story.

 

[Geico266]

You started the thread with a $14,500 bill one year after a clean pre-buy. No matter how you swing it, the shop isn't trustworthy. Period. End of story.

Why anyone would ever use them after missing the stuff in the pre buy is beyond reason.

 

[yachtjim]

Why anyone would ever use them after missing the stuff in the pre buy is beyond reason.

I agree, but the only way to find this out is to be where I am right now.

 

[Matthew]

Not an owner - but just trying to understand the whole process on the chance that some day I will be:

In a 'pre-buy' inspection - is there any normal standard of care that is expected? Or are you relying on the mechanic himself to use his experience and intuition to check things and give you a report? Or is it expected that the mechanic would use the same annual inspection procedure (without the associated paperwork) to look at the same items that would be looked at with a real annual? Or is it all up to what's been negotiated between buyer and mechanic?

 

[wabower]

It can be all of the above, depending on circumstances. When you're ready to buy your first plane, ask the pre-buy mechanic to show you the inspection guide he will use for the pre-buy. A high percentage won't have one.

Not an owner - but just trying to understand the whole process on the chance that some day I will be:

In a 'pre-buy' inspection - is there any normal standard of care that is expected? Or are you relying on the mechanic himself to use his experience and intuition to check things and give you a report? Or is it expected that the mechanic would use the same annual inspection procedure (without the associated paperwork) to look at the same items that would be looked at with a real annual? Or is it all up to what's been negotiated between buyer and mechanic?

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Not an owner - but just trying to understand the whole process on the chance that some day I will be:

In a 'pre-buy' inspection - is there any normal standard of care that is expected? Or are you relying on the mechanic himself to use his experience and intuition to check things and give you a report? Or is it expected that the mechanic would use the same annual inspection procedure (without the associated paperwork) to look at the same items that would be looked at with a real annual? Or is it all up to what's been negotiated between buyer and mechanic?

It can be all of the above, depending on circumstances. When you're ready to buy your first plane, ask the pre-buy mechanic to show you the inspection guide he will use for the pre-buy. A high percentage won't have one.

Also, skill sets, business philosophies, and ethics vary tremendously shop to shop.

As someone said earlier in the thread, you need to find and vet your mechanic BEFORE you find and vet your plane.

The peace of mind in having someone you can trust working WITH YOU to maintain your plane is priceless.

 

[murphey]

It can be all of the above, depending on circumstances. When you're ready to buy your first plane, ask the pre-buy mechanic to show you the inspection guide he will use for the pre-buy. A high percentage won't have one.

Don't know about other manufacturers, but every Piper service manual has a multipage form (checklist) that explicitly lists each and every detail for 50, 100, 500 hour inspections.

Every shop I've dealt with either uses that or have developed a variation for in-house use.

 

[N801BH]

Took my plane in for annual. Was pretty perfect as far as I knew, lots of upgrades since I bought it last year. Was prepping myself for a $3k annual. Bought the plane with low hours since overhaul so I would not have to deal with a huge surprise expense. My plan backfired In a big way. Apparently in a year I need new landing gear (from pitting), new exhaust, new starter, new engine gaskets, helicoils in the heads, new aileron, new engine mounts and lots more. I bought it last year and used the annual as my pre-buy.

The plane was babied all year and mostly used for 3 hour cc flights. The previous owner used it 20 hours a year. I put 140 hours on it in the last 12 months. Pretty down on the whole ga experience right now....

The OP used the "annual" as his pre-buy inspection..... Even Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder can see a pitted landing gear, and oil leaks, and a worn out exhaust system....

I would really hope the friend and owner of the aviation shop reads this thread and has a VERY frank talk to his mechanics.. The OP based his purchase decision on a clean bill of health of the plane, now another A&P /IA had written down numerous defects that cannot accumulate in a years time...

As the saying goes on the Lucy show " someones gots some splainin to do"

IMHO...

Ps. I really feel for the OP as he is torn between his friend and that businesses ability to consistantly call the correct shots on airworthy defects.

 

[wabower]

Pitting doesn't always call for replacement.

The OP used the "annual" as his pre-buy inspection..... Even Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder can see a pitted landing gear, and oil leaks, and a worn out exhaust system....

I would really hope the friend and owner of the aviation shop reads this thread and has a VERY frank talk to his mechanics.. The OP based his purchase decision on a clean bill of health of the plane, now another A&P /IA had written down numerous defects that cannot accumulate in a years time...

As the saying goes on the Lucy show " someones gots some splainin to do"

IMHO...

Ps. I really feel for the OP as he is torn between his friend and that businesses ability to consistantly call the correct shots on airworthy defects.

 

[N801BH]

Pitting doesn't always call for replacement.

I agree 100%..

 

[Tom-D]

The OP used the "annual" as his pre-buy inspection..... Even Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder can see a pitted landing gear, and oil leaks, and a worn out exhaust system....

I would really hope the friend and owner of the aviation shop reads this thread and has a VERY frank talk to his mechanics.. The OP based his purchase decision on a clean bill of health of the plane, now another A&P /IA had written down numerous defects that cannot accumulate in a years time...

As the saying goes on the Lucy show " someones gots some splainin to do"

IMHO...

Ps. I really feel for the OP as he is torn between his friend and that businesses ability to consistantly call the correct shots on airworthy defects.

I've known of 4 occasions in the resent past, the pre-buy inspector told the buyer " do not buy this aircraft" the seller adjusted the price, and the buyer bought it anyway.
The adjusted price was based upon a estimate of parts and labor, but after the sale the new owner finds that the inflation of parts and labor brings the price of repairs way above the original estimate.

 

[N801BH]

...........The adjusted price was based upon a estimate of parts and labor, but after the sale the new owner finds that the inflation of parts and labor brings the price of repairs way above the original estimate.

I bet that happens all the time too..

 

[Tom-D]

Every shop I've dealt with either uses that or have developed a variation for in-house use.

that should scare the hell out of you.

and yes it is legal.

 

[murphey]

that should scare the hell out of you.

and yes it is legal.

Why should it scare me, and yes, I know it's legal.

I have no problems with a shop creating a more generic version so it can be used for various aircraft as long as it includes everything on the Piper list. Some items (e.g. electric trim) is NA for my cherokee. So on the All-Encompassing Checklist it's marked that way. Just the same as ADs that aren't applicable.

The shop I use checks off each item on the list as it goes along, and offers it to me at the end of the inspection. Of course I get te squak list - that's a different form filled out in parallel.

 

[cirrusmx]

you sir just hit......the jackpot!!

 

[Tom-D]

Why should it scare me, and yes, I know it's legal.

I have no problems with a shop creating a more generic version so it can be used for various aircraft as long as it includes everything on the Piper list. Some items (e.g. electric trim) is NA for my cherokee. So on the All-Encompassing Checklist it's marked that way. Just the same as ADs that aren't applicable.

The shop I use checks off each item on the list as it goes along, and offers it to me at the end of the inspection. Of course I get te squak list - that's a different form filled out in parallel.

IF they add to, that's ok, but usually they detract from the list to fit their time slot.

 

[yachtjim]

Ps. I really feel for the OP as he is torn between his friend and that businesses ability to consistantly call the correct shots on airworthy defects.

You explained my feelings on the subject precisely. I am still working through other alternatives to figure out a positive path from this mess. I keep talking to Cherokee owner after Cherokee owner that say their annuals rarely top 2k. So it's finally sinking in that my shop has Gucci expectations.

 

[wabower]

Call and raise. A buyer brought an airplane to the shop for a pre-buy, then explained that he had already bought it because it was such a good deal but wanted to have an inspection anyway, and if any a/w issues turned up he would talk to the seller about an adjustment. The "bargain" price of the plane is now 2X the original cost and climbing daily. The seller declined to participate.

I've known of 4 occasions in the resent past, the pre-buy inspector told the buyer " do not buy this aircraft" the seller adjusted the price, and the buyer bought it anyway.
The adjusted price was based upon a estimate of parts and labor, but after the sale the new owner finds that the inflation of parts and labor brings the price of repairs way above the original estimate.

 

[poadeleted21]

You explained my feelings on the subject precisely. I am still working through other alternatives to figure out a positive path from this mess. I keep talking to Cherokee owner after Cherokee owner that say their annuals rarely top 2k. So it's finally sinking in that my shop has Gucci expectations.

My first annual + fixes on my Cherokee would have likely been as much or more than yours. Everything got fixed, I did most of it and as much paperwork as I could. $3500 grand total.

P.s. people lie about annual costs. You're annual inspection should be around 1K if I'm allowed to generalize that much.

 

[Tom-D]

Call and raise. A buyer brought an airplane to the shop for a pre-buy, then explained that he had already bought it because it was such a good deal but wanted to have an inspection anyway, and if any a/w issues turned up he would talk to the seller about an adjustment. The "bargain" price of the plane is now 2X the original cost and climbing daily. The seller declined to participate.

I wonder why they call it a buyer beware market?

I got my money, Cya.

 

[Tom-D]

P.s. people lie about annual costs. You're annual inspection should be around 1K if I'm allowed to generalize that much.

Most people do not know the difference between a inspection and repairs. or the cost of each.

 

[bbchien]

My first annual + fixes on my Cherokee would have likely been as much or more than yours. Everything got fixed, I did most of it and as much paperwork as I could. $3500 grand total.

P.s. people lie about annual costs. You're annual inspection should be around 1K if I'm allowed to generalize that much.

Bad generalization. Try operating a twin. Say that in my local maintainence bay and everyone will laugh their way out to lunch....

 

[wabower]

Most people do not know the difference between a inspection and repairs. or the cost of each.

When the airplane is ready, they are presented with an invoice. They pay it and consider the amount as the cost of the annual.

 

[AggieMike88]

I haven't been to visit him yet, but I've been referred to a highly-regarded A&P in the Dallas area. At least going in I know he has good references..

Would this be John over at T67?