$14,500 annual!!

[nddons]

This thread demonstrates why I'm scared ****less of becoming an owner.

Has anyone here used Savvy for maintenance purposes? http://www.savvyaviator.com/

I've read his articles and think this is the only way to go for a novice owner. Thoughts?

 

[LandSickness]

I talked to an A&P/IA about buying my own airplane for flight training and he said the best way to approach a purchase financially is to have on hand $2 for every $1 you want to spend. If your price point is $30k, you should have at least $60k at the time of purchase because even with a low hour power plant, ANYTHING can happen. Saavy Aviator looks like a manageable approach but you still run the risk of taking on additional debt in addition to monthly ownership expenses.

 

[denverpilot]

This thread demonstrates why I'm scared ****less of becoming an owner.

Has anyone here used Savvy for maintenance purposes? http://www.savvyaviator.com/

I've read his articles and think this is the only way to go for a novice owner. Thoughts?

Why be scared? Just get a second opinion.

Mike isn't cheap. Most of his service is common sense.

Join a type club and read their info. Call them if you need a second opinion. Far cheaper than delegating your responsibilty as an owner to get up to speed on maintenance.

If you're the type who takes your cars to the dealership always and never trusts a third party mechanic on them, or if you're not willing to pick anyone other than giant well known contractors to work on your house, his service is probably worth it.

If you can look a mechanic in the eye and say, "Why? Show me." You'll do fine as an owner without it.

 

[flyersfan31]

$14,500 annual! Welcome to the average price of a PA46 annual (I've had many that were a lot more). I'm doing my Malibu annual now, what makes it bad is that I still have to pay for the parts.

That's what I was thinking. And I have to pay for labor!


I'm not complaining. My theory is, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

 

[yachtjim]

What do you guys suggest as an efficient way to locate the parts I need used? I am thinking I can email the annual report to wentworth and see what parts they can find for me used. Does that sound like a good approach? Any other companies like this?

I am going to plead with my friend to let one of my mechanics in the shop to do the grunt work. Then the a&p can inspect it and sign off.

 

[Geico266]

What do you guys suggest as an efficient way to locate the parts I need used? I am thinking I can email the annual report to wentworth and see what parts they can find for me used. Does that sound like a good approach? Any other companies like this?

I am going to plead with my friend to let one of my mechanics in the shop to do the grunt work. Then the a&p can inspect it and sign off.

Put you man pants on and take charge. You can have anyone you want work on your plane and sign it off.

 

[kmead]

At my PA46 maintenance seminars I always talk about owners becoming as educated as possible about their aircraft maintenance needs. Owners must manage their aircraft maintenance needs. My never ending line is - If your shop doesn't offer choices you need to find a new shop. A favorite line is - They changed my door seal because it just looked bad. Normally they add that the seal didn't leak before, but it sure does now.

A business like Savy Aviator is not the shop returning the aircraft to service. I haven't had any experience with them, but I do know some shops that got a bit stirred up about their involvement. The shop will only do what they are comfortable with and want to do. The owner is the only person that can make them back down.

 

[yachtjim]

Put you man pants on and take charge. You can have anyone you want work on your plane and sign it off.

I was referring to using one of my marine mechanics that I employ.

 

[wabower]

The best solution is to find a customer-oriented shop that thinks like Mike. Shops that put themselves in their customers' shoes insofar as finding the most-economic ways to solve problems are worth their weight in avgas. They are usually busy as well.

That doesn't mean that MX will ever be cheap, just that the owner can relax in knowing that the shop has done everything possible to control the costs. The methods include everything from assessing use of the airplane (if brakes are worn to near minimums but plane only flies 50 hours/yr. they will probably still be good next year) to providing owner with parts pricing options (new, rebuilt, serviceable, as-removed) so owner can weigh the cost/benefit ratio and make the best decision.

We found several exhaust issues during the annual completed yesterday. They could have been resolved piece-meal over time and reduced this year's MX expense, but I hate working on exhaust systems and hate the potential consequences of failure even worse. As a result, within 5 minutes I decided to replace the entire system with Knisley and be done with exhaust conversations for a long time. Someone else might have sent both trees to be re-welded and nursed another year or two out of the system. Either decision is defendable, depending solely on owner preference and finances.

I know the exact cost of the system, and assume that I prepaid part of the eventual cost of upgrading by doing the entire field-strip this year. I will never know (and really don't care) how the costs would have compared to rebuilding/replacing various parts over several years, but am comfortable that I won't be up to my elbows in exhaust studs in the near future.

 

[Sam D]

The best solution is to find a customer-oriented shop that thinks like Mike. Shops that put themselves in their customers' shoes insofar as finding the most-economic ways to solve problems are worth their weight in avgas.

Wayne -- Do you find that the odds of finding such a shop decrease as the value of the plan increases? Could you find a shop like this for a turboprop?

 

[wabower]

Yep. In about 2 minutes. Dave S. can attest.

Wayne -- Do you find that the odds of finding such a shop decrease as the value of the plan increases? Could you find a shop like this for a turboprop?

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

What do you guys suggest as an efficient way to locate the parts I need used? I am thinking I can email the annual report to wentworth and see what parts they can find for me used. Does that sound like a good approach? Any other companies like this?

I am going to plead with my friend to let one of my mechanics in the shop to do the grunt work. Then the a&p can inspect it and sign off.

If you don't have them yet, you need to find a set of maintenance and parts manuals for your serial number, then you will be much more successful with the salvage guys and other shops.

With a bit of patience, these can be found online or on ebay at a reasonable cost. I prefer the printed manual to the scanned manual, but the scanned ones work in a pinch and you can get often get one much quicker.

Once you have the correct manufacturer's part number, then you have a much better chance of finding the correct part. Call the salvage yards, as well as the shops that specialize in the type and/or sell mods, and remember that Google is your friend.

Also, make sure your mechanic is OK using parts that you source. Some shops use parts as another revenue stream, selling them at "list" price, plus a percentage fee on top of that. These guys may not touch anything you bring in, or will charge you for them.

Another risk of bringing in your own parts is that if there is a problem with them, the shop is more likely to charge you the labor to get it right.

You really need to develop a relationship with a mechanic that you can trust (and vice-versa) if you want to go this route. Get the trust level to the point that you can help him/her source parts, prep the plane for annual, and where you can do some of the grunt work "under supervision" and he/she is willing to sign off.

This will likely take time and personal references, but is well worth the effort.

 

[weilke]

It may be time to ask for a list of the discrepancies that affect airworthiness and then to take the plane to a different shop to fix the stuff that is real and to sign off the stuff that is not.

A 'friend' who let me down with a shoddy pre-buy like that and/or tries to milk me for money on frivolous stuff a year later would be in the 'former friend' category.

 

[Tom-D]

I am going to plead with my friend to let one of my mechanics in the shop to do the grunt work. Then the a&p can inspect it and sign off.

You may find the FBO won't allow you to do that because of insurance reasons, if he hurts himself, they get sued. plus if he does not have the EPA training he can get the shop in big trouble.

It's all about lawyers and insurance companies.

 

[CRAFT]

If you can look a mechanic in the eye and say, "Why? Show me." You'll do fine as an owner without it.

Absolutely. Had annual last month and stopped by the shop, to check on progress. Found out there was a new mechanic (IA) working there and the list of "squawks" was long and growing. I said are you kidding me? Flip that master I want to see the inop light -- it illuminated just like always. I then went through the list and was assured that the owner would review it before anything was done. I was able to prevent a framstand lube.:wink2: It's a good shop with good people and now the new guy knows that his going out of business old shop ways don't fly here. [Pardon the pun].

 

[Tom-D]

How many times must I say it?

"You must find your mechanic before you find your aircraft".

It would have been much cheaper to pay the mechanic to find you a better aircraft, than be caught in this situation.

 

[docmirror]

What do you guys suggest as an efficient way to locate the parts I need used? I am thinking I can email the annual report to wentworth and see what parts they can find for me used. Does that sound like a good approach? Any other companies like this?

I am going to plead with my friend to let one of my mechanics in the shop to do the grunt work. Then the a&p can inspect it and sign off.

ASOD.com ask for Lucky. You can bargain prices, but he's about the best around. There are tons of various Pipers in there.

 

[yachtjim]

How many times must I say it?

"You must find your mechanic before you find your aircraft".

It would have been much cheaper to pay the mechanic to find you a better aircraft, than be caught in this situation.

I did. I think the problem is the shop put their new mechanic on it this time instead of the same guy. For example - the compass has a cracked face. Last year it was empty and I actually asked them to fill it. They were fine with it being empty. This year it is still filled and working perfectly but the new mechanic said it has to be replaced. Nobody has answered this question yet - since the shop has identified certain things can they now go back and not require them to be fixed, or do I have to find a different shop to overlook or defer all these petty things.

 

[docmirror]

Ah - now we're getting to specifics. The compass with a crack in the glass should have been replaced last annual(or discounted for replacement when bought). A compass can be serviced by refilling it and using a new seal and gasket, but I would say a cracked glass is unairworthy.

Sorry.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

... plus you had a year to peruse ebay for a cheap replacement compass and/or glass but deferred it to the next annual.

 

[Tom-D]

A compass can be serviced by refilling it and using a new seal and gasket, but I would say a cracked glass is unairworthy.

Sorry.

NO IT CAN NOT it is a primary instrument, and must be repaired by a certified instrument repair station.

replacing the glass and filling it is a repair, not servicing.

but the compass ferry does a lot of work on these and never places an entry in the log.

 

[docmirror]

NO IT CAN NOT it is a primary instrument, and must be repaired by a certified instrument repair station.

replacing the glass and filling it is a repair, not servicing.

but the compass ferry does a lot of work on these and never places an entry in the log.

Uh, other than using 'service' in place of 'repair' how does that differ from what I said. It's unairworthy with a cracked glass and needs to be replaced. If the glass is a replacement item it can be replaced. I didn't say the owner could do any of this work.

 

[Tom-D]

Nobody has answered this question yet - since the shop has identified certain things can they now go back and not require them to be fixed,

Yes, they can determine if the discrepancy is airworthy or not, and sign off the annual accordingly.

or do I have to find a different shop to overlook or defer all these petty things.

Yes, after the annual is complete that shop can sign off the annual, If the aircraft is determined to be UN-airworthy, you can get a ferry permit to fly the aircraft to the shop of your choice.

There is no requirement that says that the shop doing the annual must be the shop that does the repairs.

one of my customers took their aircraft to a shop that tore it apart and refused to put it back together until the discrepancies were repaired by them. I called my PMI and he took the time to go have a talk to the shop owner, the next day the aircraft was setting on the line all back together, and signed off as annual completed as un-airworthy, with a list of discrepancies given to the owner. I got a ferry permit for the owner to fly the aircraft back to his hangar, he is now repairing the discrepancies under my supervision.

be reminded that your FSDO may or may not give you a ferry permit if the maintenance is available where the aircraft is located.

 

[Dan Thomas]

NO IT CAN NOT it is a primary instrument, and must be repaired by a certified instrument repair station.

And due to the repair costs, it's probably cheaper to buy a new one.

Dan

 

[bbchien]

Jim, You might have a different problem. The young "marine" mechanic.

We had one here for a while who thought that while the a/c was in the shop, it was HIS bird.

He lasted 58 days. On my aircraft, I called that young marine to attention and read him the book.

How about getting a reassessement from the FIRST A&P....

 

[poadeleted21]

What do you guys suggest as an efficient way to locate the parts I need used? I am thinking I can email the annual report to wentworth and see what parts they can find for me used. Does that sound like a good approach? Any other companies like this?

I am going to plead with my friend to let one of my mechanics in the shop to do the grunt work. Then the a&p can inspect it and sign off.

Cherokeeaircraftsalvage.com call him first.

 

[yachtjim]

Jim, You might have a different problem. The young "marine" mechanic.

We had one here for a while who thought that while the a/c was in the shop, it was HIS bird.

He lasted 58 days. On my aircraft, I called that young marine to attention and read him the book.

How about getting a reassessement from the FIRST A&P....

Sorry this is so confusing. The young guy is a new a&p at the shop where I take my plane. I employ marine (boat) mechanics that I could send over to do some grunt work on my behalf so my bill to the shop is not so high. Things like changing out the exhaust, front strut lower half, etc. leave the more important things to the shop to do.

 

[wabower]

I replaced the exhaust system in my Cessna 180 last week. Can't imagine anything much simpler.

Sorry this is so confusing. The young guy is a new a&p at the shop where I take my plane. I employ marine (boat) mechanics that I could send over to do some grunt work on my behalf so my bill to the shop is not so high. Things like changing out the exhaust, front strut lower half, etc. leave the more important things to the shop to do.

 

[Tom-D]

And due to the repair costs, it's probably cheaper to buy a new one.

Dan

Why ?? they are over E-bay.

the compass ferry fixes them and sells them on E-bay

 

[Apache123]

Just throwing in my 2¢

You can demonstrate evidence to the local FSDO that the plane has flown safely for cross-countries by the nice number of hours you put on her last year. Request a ferry permit for a second opinion at the mechanic of your choice. When I bought my Piper Apache (yay twins) it had two major ADs that had to be complied with including new propeller blades for both sides and a lot of little items. The combustion heater, both generators, voltage regulators, the heater-canvas, and the ELT were all replaced new. A cylinder was replaced on one engine (not necessary, but I did it at the suggestion of the mechanic; being a first-time owner I admit I was quite ready to sign off on many things that didn't need to be done) and it still totaled less than 14k parts and labor. Get your plane out of there. Don't let them take anything apart that would prevent you flying her away.

 

[yachtjim]

I found a bunch of the parts used from Mike at Cherokee Salvage, so I have knocked $2500 off the bill so far. A bunch of the labor on the bill is for adjustments and lubrication. The prior owner told me this stuff is normally included in the annual. What do you guys and gals have to say about this? The items in question:

- Aileron and rudder tension low - $79
- Aileron and rudder deflection require adjustment - $79
- Control column contacting aft wire bundles - $39
- Control column chain contacting forward stop - $39
- Lubrication of Aircraft flight controls, gear, pulleys cranks, and trim system - $79

Would you expect these thigns to be covered in a flat rate annual?

 

[wabower]

Depends on how the job was quoted. Many owners confuse inspections with service, primarily due to their experience with cars and trucks. Planes are different, and the inspection portion typically consists of " I will look at the stuff that's called for in the inspection guide and make a list of what I find. Fixing it isn't included in the quote." Many shops will include minor lube and related stuff, and some don't mind moving a wire bundle over an inch or so while they're looking at it. I personally think he's milking it.

I found a bunch of the parts used from Mike at Cherokee Salvage, so I have knocked $2500 off the bill so far. A bunch of the labor on the bill is for adjustments and lubrication. The prior owner told me this stuff is normally included in the annual. What do you guys and gals have to say about this? The items in question:

- Aileron and rudder tension low - $79
- Aileron and rudder deflection require adjustment - $79
- Control column contacting aft wire bundles - $39
- Control column chain contacting forward stop - $39
- Lubrication of Aircraft flight controls, gear, pulleys cranks, and trim system - $79

Would you expect these thigns to be covered in a flat rate annual?

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Have you sat down with the guy that did it last year or the owner yet, and gone over the list item by item with your concerns?

Or are you still working with the new kid?

It comes across to me that you might be a little conflict adverse, and are challenged with having a real discussion with the shop over what your expectations are.

Remember, you hired them. You don't need to be apologetic over determining "needs" vs. "nice to haves."

 

[yachtjim]

I am not adverse to conflict at all. What would give you that impression

I just don't want to go in there barking at everybody without knowing what I am barking about, and burning a bridge with my local shop. My first conversation with the mechanic and service manager was pretty matter of fact that they needed to fix this stuff. They did not seem like they wanted to negotiate. I am trying to find some time to discuss it with my friend that owns the shop privately to see where we go from here. He is not a mechanic, so I am not sure what leverage he has over his mechanics. Not my industry, so I don't know.

 

[wabower]

Quite a few train wrecks have occurred when the guy doing the driving isn't an engineer.

I am not adverse to conflict at all. What would give you that impression

I just don't want to go in there barking at everybody without knowing what I am barking about, and burning a bridge with my local shop. My first conversation with the mechanic and service manager was pretty matter of fact that they needed to fix this stuff. They did not seem like they wanted to negotiate. I am trying to find some time to discuss it with my friend that owns the shop privately to see where we go from here. He is not a mechanic, so I am not sure what leverage he has over his mechanics. Not my industry, so I don't know.

 

[weilke]

Talk to your friend. That new IA is going to drive him out of business.

 

[yachtjim]

So I ordered a bunch of used parts taken off other Cherokee's at Cherokee Aircraft Salvage. I was in the shop today, all of them were in a meeting apparently discussing my plane. The service manager said to make sure that all the parts have a yellow tag or sticker. So I guess that means another mechanic has blessed the parts. So now I may have another battle to fight to get them to use the used parts. Ugghhhhh. And no, my friend that owns the place is still away so I have not had a chance to discuss this with him.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

So I ordered a bunch of used parts taken off other Cherokee's at Cherokee Aircraft Salvage. I was in the shop today, all of them were in a meeting apparently discussing my plane. The service manager said to make sure that all the parts have a yellow tag or sticker. So I guess that means another mechanic has blessed the parts. So now I may have another battle to fight to get them to use the used parts. Ugghhhhh. And no, my friend that owns the place is still away so I have not had a chance to discuss this with him.

Did you get agreement on owner-supplied parts before you bought them? Some shops make money off the margin between what they actually buy parts for and what sell them to you at. You supplying parts messes up their planned cash flow on the job.

My observation: you don't seem like an appropriate fit for their business model, particularly when the whole shop is having a meeting to discuss how to handle a perceived "difficult" customer who wheedles down their estimate, brings in his own parts, and tries to substitute his own mechanics from a non-aviation shop. That's like scab work in some eyes.

My gentle recommendation: Get it out now. Pay for the annual and get the list of discrepancies. Find another mechanic who meshes with your "style." Fix the plane there. This shop is gonna get their money one way or another if they start tearing into the plane, and neither one of you will be happy.

 

[docmirror]

You won't be getting a yellow tag from the salvage yard. Which means, you'll have to take all the parts to a local A&P and have him determine that they are serviceable and within tolerance for wear. Then, take the parts to the shop and have them inspect them once again, and pay for that inspection too.

I don't know why you don't take the advice offered long ago in this thread and get your plane away from them.

 

[JLowe]

My God, I am taking some awesome notes in this thread. It for sure sounds like you need to get your plane out of there. Have you asked on here for any recommended A&Ps?

I haven't been to visit him yet, but I've been referred to a highly-regarded A&P in the Dallas area. At least going in I know he has good references..