Cost of a private pilot certificate now??

[pfarber]

But of course, we try to exceed the minimums

and you prove my point. you are costing students money and increasing the failure/dropout rate because you think you need to go above and beyond. The ACS doesn't have minimums, it has STANDARDS that must be met.

CFI are like the idiot AnP's who thinks they have the power to ground aircraft because they think something is unairworthy. Both are 100% wrong.

 

[Racerx]

These training costs make the package deal of training AND buying a plane, then selling it (even at a loss), possibly a reasonable spreadsheet outcome.

Did exactly that. Bought plane for 33k. Will be selling it for 55-60k shorly. 50 an hour for instructor and roughly 50 an hour in fuel. Did have a 5k annual and it did need some radio work and adsb. At worst I'll break even.

 

[Racerx]

and you prove my point. you are costing students money and increasing the failure/dropout rate because you think you need to go above and beyond. The ACS doesn't have minimums, it has STANDARDS that must be met.

CFI are like the idiot AnP's who thinks they have the power to ground aircraft because they think something is unairworthy. Both are 100% wrong.

Id be willing to bet most drop outs are well before getting anywhere close to minimums. And largely due to the student not being willing/able to fly frequently enough.

I would much prefer going beyond the minimum of 10 night landings. It's the difference between legal and proficient. Are you going to be tested on a night landing come checkride? Nope. But if you slam all 10 with an instructor, I wouldn't want to be signed off because I met the 61.109 minimum.

 

[Clip4]

I really wish I had written down what I paid for rentals, instructors, and fuel over the 30+ years I have been flying. I THINK I paid $38-$45 an hour for a busted up 150/152 back in 1990, but I don't know. I think I have receipts from 1999 in a PA28-180 I rented to do my commercial check ride somewhere. I think it was around $70/hour.

1980=$22 an hour for brand new 172s and $18 for new 152s.

 

[AlphaPilotFlyer]

what, may I ask, is an experimental c172?

Why, it’s the best c172 ever! Actually just a old c172 with a v8 engine

 

[BillTIZ]

I have been an instructor since 2001. I can't remember anyone doing it in 40 hours. But of course, we try to exceed the minimums, not to make more money, but to make better pilots.

I did it in 42, had a couple of extra solo hours... granted I was flying 3 times a week during college. Started after Labor Day, finished before Christmas. That was 50+yrs ago.

 

[Rene]

I was paid to learn how to taxi, pre-flight, and fuel an airplane. (But, being nice, I threw in mowing the grass, shoveling snow, cleaning the planes inside and out, slinging a hotdog and a Coke, keeping the paperwork, and updating the database for free. ) Hanging around the airfield, I learned who knew their stuff, who didn't know sheet from Shinola, and who had a good temperament to teach. After a few lessons where we actually left the ground, I bought part of an airplane that was very similar to what I wanted from someone who shared the same aviation goals as me. (And as a bonus he is teaching me all about budgeting for, and maintaining a classic.)

Empirically, that would be over $15,000 in 2024 dollars. (Which is to say $1,250 when Gramps was my age, or $2,750 when Dad was my age.) But it wasn't $15,000 out of pocket.

I had originally figured that I could swing the cost by obtaining a SPL in '24. There are Champs and Cubs available to rent, and by doing a PPL compliant Cross-Country I would only have to "repeat" testing when I obtained a PPL later. Access to "my" plane changed those plans. And it made waiting for my appointment with the DPE a lot easier.

 

[HAWKXP]

Nothing wrong with that. 70 Kts in an Ercoupe is about 4.5 GPH - can't beat that for dollars saved.

70 kts builds time, but looking out the widow does not necessary build competency.

 

[AlphaPilotFlyer]

there's no reason it should cost this much, corrected for inflation or not. Where else does 40+ years old object rent for such high cost? and gets more each year with no significant improvements? check out the angry comments on airfacts journal article regarding the cost of GA and solutions ....there's a lot of frustration but FAA fights to maintain the status quo for last 50 years, and beyond.

The Corsair C172-V8 Experiment Update #3—Reader’s Suggestions : Air Facts Journal

Unfortunately, it became clear that FAA leadership had no interest in supporting such a solution—whether as an experimental conversion for certified airframes or via a STC (a certification that would allow owners to replace their original engine with ours on certified aircraft)—regardless of the...

airfactsjournal.com

The result is GA has shrunk so much that it will only get more ridiculously expensive and continue its demise except for a few that can afford it…. Especially for non-career recreational pilots and owners. A buddy was putting off getting his commercial cert because he ran out of money and would need $6-8k for the 50 hours, training and checkride….we loaned our experimental and he did it all for less than $2400. Some vintage c172, same checkride.

There are practical solutions to lower cost and even eliminating leaded emissions…… experimental category can be a viable solution for many and encourage many, especially those seeking multiple ratings, to consider it if cost is a significant factor. Also, exp avionics cost far less than certified, amd can enhance the time building quality. Our exp has a big iPad EFIS and moving foreflight map, depicts weather and traffic….its info is fed by a small box with pitot static tube inputs and has adsb and GPS….. it cost about $800 and took about 4 hours to install. It was by far the best practical solution for a beat up well used 1970 skyhawk. It would have cost us close to $20k for same features in a certified solution.

From someone that went in to substantial debt for flight training in the 1980s, I cannot fathom why we are paying such costs for the same planes that were beat up and ancient when I flew them in the 80s with no additional safety features. It’s not rocket science. There are many small entities and innovators that have come up with viable solutions but shut down by FAA….. I am hopeful next administrator will refocus GA efforts and pull it out of its flat spin by making it part of a solution rather than the problem.

 

[MauleSkinner]

70 kts builds time, but looking out the widow does not necessary build competency.

With “both pilots logging PIC” I wouldn’t expect much proficiency regardless. The goal at that point has nothing to do with proficiency.

 

[ColinD]

1980=$22 an hour for brand new 172s and $18 for new 152s.

I'm punching the air right now.

I paid $173/hr wet in 2022 for a 172R (fairly new one... only 24 years old.)

 

[AlphaPilotFlyer]

Nice depiction that cost of flying same exact product costs even exceed inflation factors. Moreover, the 1970’s c172 you are paying for now is the same 1970’s c172 ….same performance, same radios, paint, interior, smell….. where else would one pay such increased cost for the same old product over a half a century? Imagine paying $150 per day to rent a 1974 Ford Pinto that looks and smells its age?

 

[Desmo]

I finished mine in 2023 in 44 hours flying a DA40 at a Part 61 school. I could have done it in ~40 hours if we didn’t have to fly so far across Texas just to find a DPE. Cost just a hair over $10k, not including the $800 DPE fee.

 

[Roller]

This seems obvious to many


Who you know is a huge factor

I have seen line guys & friends and family of pilots build a way better new guy logbook than a ERU kid, for like a 1/4 of the price, turbine time, aerobatics time, and so on, and walk into way better first jobs, fraction of the price

Same with private, if you have friends at the airport or in the industry it’s completely different math

 

[Rene]

This seems obvious to many

Who you know is a huge factor . . . if you have friends at the airport or in the industry it’s completely different math

In high school, I watched the yellow and orange Champ(s) fly past my house. So, one day I traced 'em back to their home and talked myself into a job there. I've made lots of friends, and that has made all the difference.

 

[j1b3h0]

When I was young my urge to be around airplanes (and airplane people) bordered on hormonal. Even in the 1970s when I started taking lessons flying was expensive. For ages we have had this conundrum: Airplanes, maintenance and insurance are expensive. So much so that we find it hard to justify paying anyone who instructs or maintains them a living wage. I can hardly blame those who seek a livable wage after learning their craft in GA. People who wouldn’t think twice about paying a golf or tennis pro wince at paying a CFI as much.

 

[bonefishpete]

Nice depiction that cost of flying same exact product costs even exceed inflation factors. Moreover, the 1970’s c172 you are paying for now is the same 1970’s c172 ….same performance, same radios, paint, interior, smell….. where else would one pay such increased cost for the same old product over a half a century? Imagine paying $150 per day to rent a 1974 Ford Pinto that looks and smells its age?

Because a new Pinto today would be say 28K?
A new 172 is 450K?

 

[TCABM]

Nice depiction that cost of flying same exact product costs even exceed inflation factors. Moreover, the 1970’s c172 you are paying for now is the same 1970’s c172 ….same performance, same radios, paint, interior, smell….. where else would one pay such increased cost for the same old product over a half a century? Imagine paying $150 per day to rent a 1974 Ford Pinto that looks and smells its age?

The 70s-era rental 172s I’ve flown all have had ADS-B out added, a GNS-430 or better added, G5s or similar added to get rid of the vac pump, and some were full-blown Dynon TAA makeovers.

But you know that, as well as knowing rental cost needs to cover acquisition cost, engine reserve, maintenance costs, and insurance. If it were easy to turn a profit, we’d see tons of truly vintage barn find museum piecess on the flight lines, yet we don’t.

 

[hindsight2020]

This seems obvious to many


Who you know is a huge factor

I have seen line guys & friends and family of pilots build a way better new guy logbook than a ERU kid, for like a 1/4 of the price, turbine time, aerobatics time, and so on, and walk into way better first jobs, fraction of the price

Same with private, if you have friends at the airport or in the industry it’s completely different math

at least y'all are finally owning up to the myth of meritocracy. If the death of a hobby is one of the casualties, hey I'm all for it. The cognitive dissonance in some monied circles regarding that must be unreal though.

 

[hindsight2020]

there's no reason it should cost this much, corrected for inflation or not.

Bah, you're wasting your time spouting that in this "just make more money, poor!" echo chamber. You'll prob get more traction on reddit. Dont ya know, there is no problem, "GA is thriving!", OSH 20XX this or that.

 

[Roller]

at least y'all are finally owning up to the myth of meritocracy. If the death of a hobby is one of the casualties, hey I'm all for it. The cognitive dissonance in some monied circles regarding that must be unreal though.

I don’t think any experienced pilots ever held the puppy mills in any good regard, maybe the HR drones were impressed?

 

[schmookeeg]

Bah, you're wasting your time spouting that in this "just make more money, poor!" echo chamber. You'll prob get more traction on reddit. Dont ya know, there is no problem, "GA is thriving!", OSH 20XX this or that.

I bet it would take at least 400# of thrust to fly that chip off of your shoulder.

 

[hindsight2020]

I bet it would take at least 400# of thrust to fly that chip off of your shoulder.

when ya catch flak... you're over the target. #copeharder

 

[murphey]

Did exactly that. Bought plane for 33k. Will be selling it for 55-60k shorly. 50 an hour for instructor and roughly 50 an hour in fuel. Did have a 5k annual and it did need some radio work and adsb. At worst I'll break even.

Bought the 1969 cherokee in 2000 for $50K before I took the checkride, have spent about $35K on avionics and new interior over the years (I don't include hangar and annuals). Been offered over $100K.

 

[Rene]

when ya catch flak... you're over the target. #copeharder

Eh, hit the coast at 30K feet and 300 mph, then make 20 degree changes in course every 30 seconds, holding that change for at least 10 seconds. At your IP descend 1000 feet and turn 90 degrees to target continuing those 30 - 10 turns.

-Per U.S.A.A.F. T.F. 1-3389 'FlAK' (1944)

 

[Roller]

Eh, hit the coast at 30K feet and 300 mph, then make 20 degree changes in course every 30 seconds, holding that change for at least 10 seconds. At your IP descend 1000 feet and turn 90 degrees to target continuing those 30 - 10 turns.

-Per U.S.A.A.F. T.F. 1-3389 'FlAK' (1944)

Not familiar of many planes that fly at 30k at read in MPH

AT 30k we are indicating 320kts, or about mach .85 which is how we refer to our speed at the altitude with ATC

Often below 10k we have to request high speed due to performance

I would think military would be about the same

 

[Rene]

Not familiar of many planes that fly at 30k at read in MPH

AT 30k we are indicating 320kts, or about mach .85 which is how we refer to our speed at the altitude with ATC

Often below 10k we have to request high speed due to performance

I would think military would be about the same

I was quoting the T.F.. I find those old Periscope Films fascinating. The German radar would lock onto a target and send a firing solution to the FlAK battery, but with computation, loading, traversing, and shell travel to 5 NMs of altitude, a 20 degree change in course from what was anticipated would send the shells relatively harmlessly off to the port or starboard, then moving back to the primary course would repeat the process.


"$295.00, This Airspeed Indicator is a WWII-era US Army Air Force Type D-7, Bendix Pioneer PN 1426-4T-A10-1, as used across a number of US Army Air Corps and Air Force aircraft during WWII, including heavy bombers B-17 and B-24, medium bombers B-25 and B-26, as well as light bomber A-20, according to the Maintenance Interchangeability Chart dated Dec 1943. It was also used in versions of US Army Air Force WWII fighters P-38, P-39, P-40, P-47, and P-51."

Although I have read about A-20s and P-39s meant for the Soviets, but diverted to the Pacific. Those read in meters and KMPH.

 

[Roller]

I was quoting the T.F.. I find those old Periscope Films fascinating. The German radar would lock onto a target and send a firing solution to the FlAK battery, but with computation, loading, traversing, and shell travel to 5 NMs of altitude, a 20 degree change in course from what was anticipated would send the shells relatively harmlessly off to the port or starboard, then moving back to the primary course would repeat the process.

View attachment 138236
"$295.00, This Airspeed Indicator is a WWII-era US Army Air Force Type D-7, Bendix Pioneer PN 1426-4T-A10-1, as used across a number of US Army Air Corps and Air Force aircraft during WWII, including heavy bombers B-17 and B-24, medium bombers B-25 and B-26, as well as light bomber A-20, according to the Maintenance Interchangeability Chart dated Dec 1943. It was also used in versions of US Army Air Force WWII fighters P-38, P-39, P-40, P-47, and P-51."

Although I have read about A-20s and P-39s meant for the Soviets, but diverted to the Pacific. Those read in meters and KMPH.

My A14 sextant is by bendix, same with the Venturi and turn & skid on my champ.

They made dang good stuff back in the day

Periscope films rocks too

 

[Pinecone]

From someone that went in to substantial debt for flight training in the 1980s, I cannot fathom why we are paying such costs for the same planes that were beat up and ancient when I flew them in the 80s with no additional safety features. It’s not rocket science. There are many small entities and innovators that have come up with viable solutions but shut down by FAA….. I am hopeful next administrator will refocus GA efforts and pull it out of its flat spin by making it part of a solution rather than the problem.

1) Fuel costs
2) Parts costs
3) Maintenance costs
4) Insurance costs
5) Overhead costs (office, phones, electric, computers, workers)
6) Inflation (value of money)

How much did you make in the 80s? Compared to the same job today?

When I did my PP in 1979, a 2LT in the military, with flight pay made about $6 per hour ($12,000 per year). I paid $30 per hour for a Grumman Tiger and $9 per hour for the instructor. So an hour of dual cost me almost a days pay.

Today a 2LT makes about $22 an hour and a C-172 rents for about $160 plus $50 for instructor, so just over 1 days pay per hour dual.

GA is not significantly more expensive in actual buying power.

 

[UngaWunga]

Bought the 1969 cherokee in 2000 for $50K before I took the checkride, have spent about $35K on avionics and new interior over the years (I don't include hangar and annuals). Been offered over $100K.

yes, the covid bump costs have benefited you. And me. Try getting into aviation now.

 

[Dan Thomas]

$40hr flying 121?! And this post was from this year?

He's working in a shop, not flying.

what, may I ask, is an experimental c172?

A 172 with an automobile V8 in it. It would be registered in the R&D category, so training in it would be legally sketchy, IMO.

 

[Dan Thomas]

50 years ago I paid about $1200 for my private ticket. Using the Canadian inflation calculator, It would be about $8K now. It actually costs way more than that, more than double that, now, even for the same number of hours.

 

[Rene]

50 years ago I paid about $1200 for my private ticket. Using the Canadian inflation calculator, It would be about $8K now. It actually costs way more than that, more than double that, now, even for the same number of hours.

There are places that *say* they will rent for ca. US $100 hour plus US $80 for a CFI . . . Toss in ground school and tests and that's about US $8k for the legal requirements for a Private (exclusive of your costs to get to their field). A couple also offer Sport instruction.

I'm not *saying* this isn't true. But, I'm unsure of demand v. availability, being the lowest cost I found anywhere close to Michigan / Wisconsin. My original plan would have cost more in rental fees, but less in travel time . . . and . . . best of all, have been in a classic taildragger, not a C-152.

 

[Dan Thomas]

There are places that *say* they will rent for ca. US $100 hour plus US $80 for a CFI . . . Toss in ground school and tests and that's about US $8k for the legal requirements for a Private

And what model of airplane is that? Must be something pretty old/cheap/ratty. It also sounds like they're making up some of the difference in the CFI cost. Even when I was instructing 20 years ago our costs were more than that.

 

[Tusayan]

First Flight at Brown Field in San Diego is what always comes to mind with this discussion. $90 wet for a VFR C172 and $70 wet for an Aeronca Champ. $55 for an instructor. They have a website, their facility is exactly as old school as you might imagine.

I’ve never done business with them other than buying $4.95 100LL but I bet a million pilots have gained their tailwheel endorsement in that Champ and its predecessor.

 

[Rene]

And what model of airplane is that? Must be something pretty old/cheap/ratty. It also sounds like they're making up some of the difference in the CFI cost. Even when I was instructing 20 years ago our costs were more than that.

I'm just quoting prices I've seen. Wisconsin Aviation (Madison: 800.594.5359, Watertown: 800.657.0761, Dodge County: 800.319.0907) currently has the lowest hourly rates I've seen around here. $105 / hr with no fuel surcharge and $75 per hour for a CFI. I am NOT saying that I've done anything other than look this up online. They have seven C-152s.

The closest would be a multi hour drive for me, and there are people here who have nicer airplanes (in my highly selective opinion), Cubs, Vags, Champs who teach. More per hour, but less travel. Plus, here everyone at the airport knows me.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

I left my job at Wausau Flying Service at the end of December. The rental rates then were $165 for a C-172, less for a 152 and lowest for a 150. Instruction was $60/hr or $55 if the customer scheduled four hours. All the airplanes were older but well-maintained. The 172s had AV30s and the 152 had very nice avionics. Six instructors and four training airplanes. Probably about 30 students. I loved working there, but the company insurance will no longer cover me at age 79.

 

[pfarber]

Id be willing to bet most drop outs are well before getting anywhere close to minimums. And largely due to the student not being willing/able to fly frequently enough.

I would much prefer going beyond the minimum of 10 night landings. It's the difference between legal and proficient. Are you going to be tested on a night landing come checkride? Nope. But if you slam all 10 with an instructor, I wouldn't want to be signed off because I met the 61.109 minimum.

I've seen garbage CFIs yell at a young woman for God know what. CFI wouldn't sign off my long XC because he had a bad IFR student before me and was ****ed... one small not even mistake set him off and cost me $250. CFIs would drop students at a chance the right seat anything twin or turbine. That was at one of the 6 schools I went through.

CFIs are garbage and and 80%+ drop out rate prives my point.

CFIs are garbage because their goal is not instructing... but 1500 hrs.

CFIs are garbage because FSDOs don't do jack about complaints.

To the 20% that survive the cesspool of flight training, flight schools and CFIs we are the lucky one with more money and brains that most.

Most CFIs are garbage and I can prove it any day of the week.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Cubs, Vags, Champs

Those all started out as 65-HP airplanes. 4 gallons an hour. Dirt simple, many even without electrical systems. I would expect them to go cheaply. Even if they've been upgraded to 85 or 100 HP they're still economical airplanes.

And none of them have an IFR panel, so there's no hood time. In Canada there is a requirement for 5 hours of that in the Private training. No night, either, since most of those airplanes have no lights.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Those all started out as 65-HP airplanes. 4 gallons an hour. Dirt simple, many even without electrical systems. I would expect them to go cheaply. Even if they've been upgraded to 85 or 100 HP they're still economical airplanes.

And none of them have an IFR panel, so there's no hood time.

In the U.S., an IFR panel is not required for hood time. A Venturi-powered T&B would be sufficient (and IMO, preferable) to get the job done at least through the Private level.