Crash at Reagan National Airport, DC. Small aircraft down in the Potomac.

Engineering i.e. hardware design is a vastly different undertaking than designing a system that has to operate with a ton of other systems that are impacted by things not necessarily in their direct control.

Again, the example of self driving cars comes to mind.
Ok, I don't think you're contradicting the quoted post. Certainly you recognize that SpaceX hardware operates with a ton of systems that are impacted by things but in their direct control. I don't think anyone would claim that everything between firing a rocket into space and catching it back at the launch pad or landing it on a floating barge, not to mention docking and recovering a spacecraft with the space station, is within SpaceX's control.
 
Self driving vehicles are a much better analogy to ATC AI than anything SpaceX does. It's not a particularly difficult software problem, and could be solved using current AI tools. It just takes a lot of development resources and time to get performance to a level acceptable for such a critical system, with 90% of that effort spent on edge cases. Right now, there is little impetus in either the government or private sector to expend those resources on that problem. As AI tools continue to improve, eventually the problem will become solvable at a reasonable cost, and it will happen. Someday.
 
You don't have to "blow things up" to train an AI for ATC.

Tesla's FSD computer, the one in each car, is calculating a driving solution all the time, even when Autopilot is not engaged. When the human driver's actions diverge significantly from FSD's solution, the data is sent back to Tesla and, when the human's performance was better than FSD, is used for AI training.

That is one way that an ATC AI would be trained.

One way in which FSD has an advantage over human drivers is that it is watching all eight exterior cameras simultaneously without ever being distracted or having to "turn its head" in different directions to see all necessary angles. The ATC AI would have a similar advantage in that it would have more information available to it than any single controller now has.

For example, it would know about all of the other airplanes currently flying toward a particular STAR and at what time they will reach each waypoint. Airplanes hundreds of miles apart can be sequenced and deconflicted hours before they arrive at the conflict point creating a more efficient system, with fewer bottlenecks, than is currently possible.

FSD has a features with some parallels to this sequencing in its navigation software. FSD knows when you will need to charge and what Superchargers are available along your route in the area where you will be ready to charge. It also knows how many stalls are available at each charging site, how many other cars are navigating to those chargers, and at what times they will all arrive. It uses this data to spread the charging demand across the stations to avoid anyone having to wait for a charger.
 
I don't think the collision avoidance algorithm is quite as trivial as you might think. It's not difficult to come up with realistic scenarios where escape maneuvers create even more collision hazards.

(then there is the whole problem of dealing with spoofed ADS-B messages).
It is every bit as "trivial" (and by that, I don't mean easy for any coder to write, far from it) as similar stuff exists today.* There are far fewer items to predict (despite how busy the ADS-B map looks) than what is tracked in various industries. And we aren't working with entirely random dots on the screen. In fact, the only real issue is that the pilot must obey the alerts, which we already know ain't a 100% certainty.
*Former DoD programmer, who worked on image recognition "back in the day", and AI in the private sector, so I'm likely looking at it all wrong. It could have been done decades ago. And should have. ADS-B is what I would call a "kluge" when it comes to avoidance.
 
I'll note that we aren't at a zero rate for mid-air collisions among aircraft under human ATC control today, so there's no reason to hold AI ATC to that standard.
 
I'll note that we aren't at a zero rate for mid-air collisions among aircraft under human ATC control today, so there's no reason to hold AI ATC to that standard.
When was the last mid-air that was caused by an ATC error or failure? I can't think of anything recent.
 
When was the last mid-air that was caused by an ATC error or failure? I can't think of anything recent.
I didn't say caused by. But under control of. And other than the subject of this thread, I can think of three off the top of my head.
 
When was the last mid-air that was caused by an ATC error or failure? I can't think of anything recent.
I believe the most recent egregious incident was the near collision between a SWA passenger aircraft and a FedEx cargo plane in February 2023.

A FedEx cargo plane trying to land and a Southwest Airlines jet trying to take off nearly collided on an airport runway last year because of an air traffic controller’s faulty assumptions amid heavy fog, investigators with the National Transportation Safety Board said in a hearing Thursday.

“It is an error. We’re all human,” said NTSB chairwoman Jennifer Homendy. “That’s why you have technology to provide that extra layer of protection, not just in the tower but also in the cockpit of the airplane.”


 
I believe the most recent egregious incident was the near collision between a SWA passenger aircraft and a FedEx cargo plane in February 2023.
That was an ATC error but a collision was avoided. ATC errors happen everyday. Just like pilot errors.

Big problem there was the lack of ground tracking systems. Not primary, of course, but it took away the backup alert system that such a system provides as well as the situational awareness benefit to the controller in an occluded tower cab. As of last June, KAUS now has an ADS-B Airport Surface Surveillance Capability system.

DHL611 comes to mind; early 2000s.
Definitely. ATC and Russian crew errors. Procedures changed on both sides. I was think of the US ATC system.

An AI system should have been able to alert the controllers, in both cases, much earlier than current systems.
 
Elon is running a company that basically commoditized space launch business … while not suggesting that he has any demigod like abilities ( as seem to be the case recently with some news outlets ) but collectively his company is well equipped to handle tough engineering problems so I would be reluctant to dismiss him with “ the mid air collision and CFIT rate would 100x within a month” type of silly remarks.
"Move fast and break stuff" just doesn't work so well when it comes to human lives. And if he did try to do it in 6 months, I would not be at all surprised for midairs and CFIT to increase by 100x. After all, this is the guy who has been promising "(a) full self driving (demo) by the end of the year" since 2016.
"cute" sound bite, but the flip side is that wrt engineering testing is that if you don't have any test failures, then your tests aren't properly designed.
Generally, a well designed engineering test is going to fail a particular component or system, not the entire rocket. And the RUD events aren't designed tests - They're things that happen because the philosophy at SpaceX is such that they're willing to accept much riskier flights in exchange for the data they'll get from a RUD if it happens.

Or are you saying NASA should have blown some shuttles up on purpose?

Look, there's room for an approach that doesn't make every component human spaceflight ready on day one. I've seen it be extremely successful. But you don't have to lose entire vehicles to move fast.
Self driving vehicles are a much better analogy to ATC AI than anything SpaceX does. It's not a particularly difficult software problem, and could be solved using current AI tools. It just takes a lot of development resources and time to get performance to a level acceptable for such a critical system, with 90% of that effort spent on edge cases. Right now, there is little impetus in either the government or private sector to expend those resources on that problem. As AI tools continue to improve, eventually the problem will become solvable at a reasonable cost, and it will happen. Someday.
Not particularly difficult? Really? And no impetus in the private sector?

Tesla has been working on this for quite some time and has made massive investments into it. They have hundreds of BILLIONS of miles worth of data collected from their cars and their training system is one of the most powerful supercomputers in the world, yet they still don't have a system that can run without human supervision.
 
Yall complicate the ever loving heck out of matters


Don’t fly a helicopter/whatever through a airliners current approach path seems like a pretty basic concept

“Negative PAT, stay clear the airspace, regional traffic on approach, recommend topping off the senators cocktail and holding for 5 min”
 
Yall complicate the ever loving heck out of matters


Don’t fly a helicopter/whatever through a airliners current approach path seems like a pretty basic concept

“Negative PAT, stay clear the airspace, regional traffic on approach, recommend topping off the senators cocktail and holding for 5 min”
Y’all’s algorithm doohickey needs some adjustin’. There were no passengers in the helo.
 
I'll note that we aren't at a zero rate for mid-air collisions among aircraft under human ATC control today, so there's no reason to hold AI ATC to that standard.
But it will be held to that standard. An ordinary car crash may not even make the local news, but a crash of a self driving Tesla in LA will be hit the news in NYC.
Or are you saying NASA should have blown some shuttles up on purpose?
I remember a discussion on NASA and PR... the (semi serious) idea was NASA was so careful, so few accidents, that space flight became almost boring and the public lost interest. A few accidents, a hero or two in the early days (yes, there was Apollo 1 but it wasn't even flying), and it would have been more exciting for the spectators taxpayers who pay the bills.
 
good grief... hyperboles have run rampant

While there are engineering tests that are designed to be test-to-failure, it would be idiotic to suggest that a shuttle should have been blown up. However, the process to man-rate a launch system should allow for failures. And, properly instrumented, a failure can be extremely helpful in evaluating as-built performance. Heck, think about the use of the FDR when evaluating an aircraft crash.

Anyone here know about explosive atmosphere testing for avionics? Sometimes the unit under test gets blown up, not deliberately, but it does happen.
 
They're things that happen because the philosophy at SpaceX is such that they're willing to accept much riskier flights in exchange for the data they'll get from a RUD if it happens.
By the time SpaceX launches a test rocket, they're already building rockets that have hundreds of improvements over the one they are launching. The rocket they're launching is already obsolete due to the rapid pace of development so it is already disposable. What they learn from the test flight is the value and they learn a lot whether it RUDs or not. It's how they progress the technology so quickly.

Tesla has been working on this for quite some time and has made massive investments into it. They have hundreds of BILLIONS of miles worth of data collected from their cars and their training system is one of the most powerful supercomputers in the world, yet they still don't have a system that can run without human supervision.
Have you driven v12.6 (AI3)/v13 (AI4) yet? They are very close. Autonomous taxis may take to the roads in Austin this year. For my AI3 car, the improvement from v11 to v12.6 was significant.

An ordinary car crash may not even make the local news, but a crash of a self driving Tesla in LA will be hit the news in NYC.
Tesla offers car insurance in several states. They are now offering discounts for cars that are being driven on FSD instead of manually. The more you use FSD, the lower your rates will be. They aren't doing that because FSD crashes more often than the human driver.
 
"Move fast and break stuff" just doesn't work so well when it comes to human lives. And if he did try to do it in 6 months, I would not be at all surprised for midairs and CFIT to increase by 100x. After all, this is the guy who has been promising "(a) full self driving (demo) by the end of the year" since 2016.

Generally, a well designed engineering test is going to fail a particular component or system, not the entire rocket. And the RUD events aren't designed tests - They're things that happen because the philosophy at SpaceX is such that they're willing to accept much riskier flights in exchange for the data they'll get from a RUD if it happens.

Or are you saying NASA should have blown some shuttles up on purpose?

Look, there's room for an approach that doesn't make every component human spaceflight ready on day one. I've seen it be extremely successful. But you don't have to lose entire vehicles to move fast.

Not particularly difficult? Really? And no impetus in the private sector?

Tesla has been working on this for quite some time and has made massive investments into it. They have hundreds of BILLIONS of miles worth of data collected from their cars and their training system is one of the most powerful supercomputers in the world, yet they still don't have a system that can run without human supervision.
And yet ... if all cars had FSD with today's software, there would be fewer crashes.
 
And yet ... if all cars had FSD with today's software, there would be fewer crashes.
Maybe. But the hard truth is that if your corporation's driving automation causes a crash, the payout will be much larger than if a human caused the exact same crash. I'm not arguing that's how it should be, but that's how it is.
 
I emailed them and asked where 4 was. Wonder if they will answer.

Is there something specific you’re looking for? Wouldn’t briefing 5 be more up to date, possibly a little more accurate?
 
Is there something specific you’re looking for? Wouldn’t briefing 5 be more up to date, possibly a little more accurate?
In 3 he made a big deal about not answering questions about altitude readouts on the Controllers scopes. Said they needed to get more info on it first.
 
Wow. So, Heli crew had some kind of disagreement on what altitude they were at earlier in the flight, and both were on NVGs, but baro altitude info from their FDR is bad (odd) and altimeter settings are not stored by the FDR.

Also, the helicopter crew heard neither the "circling" portion of the first traffic call nor the "pass behind the" portion of the second one, the latter because the Black Hawk briefly stepped on them.

Also, the CRJ crew clearly tried hard to avoid the collision at the last second - Nearly full deflection up elevator and got to 9 degrees pitch up and 11 degrees left roll.

Black Hawk was at 278 RA and given the last RA of the CRJ 2 seconds earlier and their descent rate, they would have been at 298 RA, so it's even possible that the left roll of the CRJ's evasive maneuver had a part in causing the collision - It looks like the Black Hawk went under the CRJ and hit the left wing in the videos. It'll sure be interesting to see what they find the collision points were when examining the wreckage.
 
Wow. So, Heli crew had some kind of disagreement on what altitude they were at earlier in the flight, and both were on NVGs, but baro altitude info from their FDR is bad (odd) and altimeter settings are not stored by the FDR.

Also, the helicopter crew heard neither the "circling" portion of the first traffic call nor the "pass behind the" portion of the second one, the latter because the Black Hawk briefly stepped on them.

Also, the CRJ crew clearly tried hard to avoid the collision at the last second - Nearly full deflection up elevator and got to 9 degrees pitch up and 11 degrees left roll.

Black Hawk was at 278 RA and given the last RA of the CRJ 2 seconds earlier and their descent rate, they would have been at 298 RA, so it's even possible that the left roll of the CRJ's evasive maneuver had a part in causing the collision - It looks like the Black Hawk went under the CRJ and hit the left wing in the videos. It'll sure be interesting to see what they find the collision points were when examining the wreckage.
So much went wrong here.
 
Heinrich Theory

I’m wondering if a slow motion domino sequence better describes this accident than the Swiss cheese model. Once those dominoes get started and without intervention, the last fall is inevitable. Just a matter of time. This accident started a long time ago and followed an 'if this, then that' process.
 
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I wasn't going to comment on this one, but there's enough sidetracks, many interesting, that I don't see any harm. I do risk management in IT, as one of my core things, and have in industrial and public safety systems at all. Which isn't really much to say. Every engineer, every pilot, even any well raised kid has some training in risk management, whether they know it or not.

This accident seems to be to be pretty simple, I'm agreeing with many of the airline pilots here on that. And I'd add not just simple, but I'd bet almost inevitable.

We toss around the "swiss cheese" analogy to describe an accident where lots of unlikely things have to line up in an unpredictable way to cause an accident. It's a description that is pretty accurate for a scenario where multiple safety systems, all unrelated, fail. But that doesn't seem like that. Those accidents may be complicated in execution, but they're easy to understand. This one is where the experienced people just have a gut feeling that things aren't right. When I hear "this doesn't feel right" from peers in my field, I pay attention, because a lot of time they're picking up something in an almost analog way that they know isn't right but they can't put their finger on the specifics. They're not always right, but always worth listening too.

Anyway, a couple of truths are that no system's performance is ever 100% with 0 error. It's going to be +/- some tolerance, some % of the time. Plus or minus 50 feet in altitude 99% of the time, or whatever. If you make the number really big, then it might be 99.99% or whatever. But the math part says you don't get perfect. The same thing is true of any piece of moving anything built by man. It'll eventually fail. And even better, if you have a backup but there's no way to know the primary has failed, adding that backup doesn't necessarily improve your reliability ANY.

Back to this accident, simple version. In my mind it's a lot like the recent warbird crash in TX, that the pilots were more of less playing figure 8 racing on that final, but didn't know it. Before anyone says that's crazy, here's what I mean: In figure 8 racing, or in any environment where the most likely collision is at right angles, it's actually a little tough for the two objects to collide. They have to be in the same spot at the same time, and that happened here in DC. But each are potentially traveling at about 100 knots or more, and they're only about 100' long, maybe a bit less. 100 knots is something a bit over 150 ft/sec. So with zero vertical separation, they have to be on an intercept course within a second to hit each other. If my back of envelope math is right, and if there are guessing a helicopter flight every 15 minutes and a landing on that approach every 3, and if the courses lined up 100% in the vertical, each airplane flight would still have something like a 100,000:1 chance of colliding with a helicopter. Because they're approaching at right angles. The smaller they are, and the faster they go, the less chance of hitting.

But they flight paths did have vertical separation! And they did hit anyway! Why? Because the vertical separation depended on both aircraft staying in their lane, and because pilots and aircraft aren't perfect. The randomness of the altitude excursions was higher than an adequate safety margin for the vertical separation. Or in other words, the helicopter path was too close to the approach path. The accident proves it. It only took this long for it to be a problem because the right angle paths made all the other vertical separation problems unimportant.

To my knowledge we don't run things that closely anywhere else, but maybe we do.

As to the ADSB thing, I really think it's a red herring. ADSB, as others have pointed out, isn't by itself a collision avoidance system, it's a tracking thing. A pilot on final at a controlled field shouldn't be looking at ADSB in my opinion. Their focus should be on the task ahead, that's the high risk activity. The other pilot, flying about 200' above a river at 100k or whatever? if they're looking anywhere other than straight ahead, they're also looking at the wrong thing, in my opinion. But suppose someone else is looking? What evasive action does the helicopter pilot take? They're flying along a river, probably lower than the obstacles on each side. If they guess left or right, with a predicted right angle approach, they may or may not get it right. They can't go left or right much in any event. They can't go down. So they go up. Switch to the aircraft on final. Left or right or down on a final approach? I don't think so, not down and not much left or right. So they go up. It would be especially tragic if we find out that both aircraft saw each other, and both went up to avoid.

That last point puts us in a different spot, again in my view. You shouldn't put pilots in a spot to dodge traffic on final, and you shouldn't put a pilot flying 200' off the ground in a position to dodge traffic, either. Which brings us back to the first point, having that path under the approach path wasn't a good plan. Maybe in the 1950's where "eh, accidents are unavoidable" was accepted, but not now.

Long winded way to say the approach and helicopter routes weren't setup right, again in my view, but wanted to explain my reasoning, and maybe provide some math to the airline guys that could just look at it and say "yeah, that's a stupid plan" without even thinking about it.
 
looking at this again, at the top it says NTSB Media Briefing 4, then below it says MEDIA BRIEFING 5. So which is it, 4 or 5

dude it's not like watching breaking bad or Marvel Cinematic Universe where you need to watch it in order. just wait for the final and you'll get all you need to know. whether they're right or wrong, that''ll be official.
 
dude it's not like watching breaking bad or Marvel Cinematic Universe where you need to watch it in order. just wait for the final and you'll get all you need to know. whether they're right or wrong, that''ll be official.
lol. I ain’t looking for the final answer. Just curious about the Tower Radar display thing, which at the end of the day is very unlikely to be pertinent to the ‘cause’
 
I bet 95% of those helicopter routes close to the airport are daylight operations only…and have been that way for years….would be interesting to see traffic flow utilization as a data point at some time…
 
The Swamp is going to protect it's VIP flights no matter what. The flights into Reagan will not be throttled down.

Nothing will change. Good luck
 
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