Crash at Reagan National Airport, DC. Small aircraft down in the Potomac.

[Larry in TN]

I have a simple question: If the helicopter is supposed to be in a VFR corridor at 200 feet, and it was flying at 300 or more, then why didn't ATC order them to descend and maintain 200?

You are assuming a level of accuracy in the Mode-C display which may not match reality.

Plus, even ATP standards are +/- 100'.

 

[Velocity173]

Not sure if you're saying that it has no ADS-B at all or that it doesn't have ADSB-IN but does have ADSB-OUT.

Yeah I forgot to add another in. They don’t have ADS-B in. To my knowledge all the Mikes have out though.

 

[dtuuri]

Looking at the Flight Aware track of Flight 5342 took me back 50 years. On my first Mt. Vernon Visual approach up the Potomac the captain told me to hug the east shore but don't fly over land when circling for runway 33. I had never heard of Boling Field and probably would've been inclined to widen the base leg over land for a less steep approach. I noticed that today there is a helo route (#4) centered over that very same route we strived to follow in the Learjets. Perhaps helos should stay over land and jets over water again, huh?

 

[ateamer]

Too bad that Blackhawk did not have a Stratus and an iPhone with Foreflight.

I apologize for being a bit snarky, but serious question: I'll bet that VH-60 has a million dollars in avionics installed. Anyone know if that includes ADS-B In?

Would it be reasonable for anyone in any airframe flying VFR in VMC at 300’ to be looking at a screen instead of outside?

 

[Larry in TN]

Yeah I forgot to add another in. They don’t have ADS-B in. To my knowledge all the Mikes have out though.

I figured that they probably had ADS-B-OUT because the ground track information was available almost immediately after the accident from the flight tracking sites.

 

[geezer]

PAT25 would have had a visual of red over white for the runway 33 VASI, indicating on glideslope for landing. When I am on the highway on the east side of the river, I always look for the red over red, you are dead............. You can see those lights well off to the sides.

As an annual requalification flight there was not only a previously qualified pilot flying, but a senior check pilot monitoring to see that he did not fly outside the required limitations of that tightly restricted route. 2 highly trained pilots, plus whoever the third might have been, missed estimating their height visually, missed noticing they were in the VASI approach lights, and not over the east edge of the river.

A lot of holes lining up there.

The third person may have been getting an introductory look at the route prior to actually flying it himself. Maybe simply too much chit chat, and not enough looking at instruments and outside view? We will never know, but hopefully, the black box will tell what the radar altitude and pressure altitude were, plus the accuracy of flying the center of the route.

I am a retired Senior Technical Training Supervisor, 5 years in that task, and I see a lot of fails here in this training flight.

 

[T Bird]

This accident once again highlights how clueless mainstream news organizations and our nation’s leaders are about aviation. Headline on major cable news network “sec hegseth: might be an elevation issue.”

Assume they mean altitude (which, duh) but damn these are not difficult terms to learn the meaning of before reporting…

 

[Rcmutz]

Looking at the DC Heli chart he was route 1 going into 4. It says at or below 200’ if I’m reading this correctly. Seems he was a bit high? The route 1 text explicitly says helos to the pentagon shall be at or below 200’

Perhaps wrong altimeter setting dialed in?

 

[geezer]

Trivia, the reason that the National Airport flight routes are over the water is to assure that a plane that goes down does not destroy complete neighborhoods.

Those who fly accept the risk of crashing, the people who are at home have not accepted that risk, and complained bitterly, and successfully, to keep the planes somewhere else, thus over the rivers.

In the radial engine days, departures fron runway 4 made the Annacostia departure route, and in high density altitudes of summer, barely made it over the South Capitol street bridge. Succeeding in that, they eased to max continuous from MAXTO, and flew level up the river until they had good cooling airflow, and engine temperature fell some, then resumed a gentle climb.

I have been in the pattern at CGS when a 4 engine airliner passed through at pattern altitude. The river is at the end of the runway. The were much easier to avoid than Piper Cubs, though.

 

[172andyou]

Would it be reasonable for anyone in any airframe flying VFR in VMC at 300’ to be looking at a screen instead of outside?

It's not one versus the other. Adding a traffic display in the cockpit to the existing scan out the window is definitely a good thing. Multiple people in this thread have mentioned reporting to ATC that they had traffic in sight to realize moments later that they had the wrong plane. A traffic display can help prevent this or allow it to be caught earlier than eyes alone. I see traffic earlier and with more positive identification using both tools that I would ever be able to do with eyes alone.

 

[Half Fast]

Not surprising, but it's being reported that the tower was understaffed.

D.C. Plane Crash Live Updates: Reagan Air Traffic Control Tower Was Reportedly Understaffed

Sixty-seven people died in a collision between a Bombardier CRJ700 regional jet operated by PSA Airlines and a military Black Hawk helicopter.

www.forbes.com

One controller working both airplane takeoffs and landing plus helicopter traffic. Normally that's two people. Also, I read elsewhere that the tower has had only 19 controllers on staff since Sep 2023. A full complement is 30.

ATC is having staffing problems nationwide, but it does seem that certain airports should be given priority and assigned a full crew based on the traffic situation. Couldn't a few sleepy Deltas go non-towered and their controllers be moved to hotspots?

 

[Baked Potato]

Not surprising, but it's being reported that the tower was understaffed.

D.C. Plane Crash Live Updates: Reagan Air Traffic Control Tower Was Reportedly Understaffed

Sixty-seven people died in a collision between a Bombardier CRJ700 regional jet operated by PSA Airlines and a military Black Hawk helicopter.

www.forbes.com

One controller working both airplane takeoffs and landing plus helicopter traffic. Normally that's two people. Also, I read elsewhere that the tower has had only 19 controllers on staff since Sep 2023. A full complement is 30.

ATC is having staffing problems nationwide, but it does seem that certain airports should be given priority and assigned a full crew based on the traffic situation. Couldn't a few sleepy Deltas go non-towered and their controllers be moved to hotspots?

At Reagan?!
I often feel sorry for the controller when there are multiple planes in the pattern and an IFR departure in my little Class D airport.

 

[AlleyCat67]

Not surprising, but it's being reported that the tower was understaffed.

D.C. Plane Crash Live Updates: Reagan Air Traffic Control Tower Was Reportedly Understaffed

Sixty-seven people died in a collision between a Bombardier CRJ700 regional jet operated by PSA Airlines and a military Black Hawk helicopter.

www.forbes.com

One controller working both airplane takeoffs and landing plus helicopter traffic. Normally that's two people. Also, I read elsewhere that the tower has had only 19 controllers on staff since Sep 2023. A full complement is 30.

ATC is having staffing problems nationwide, but it does seem that certain airports should be given priority and assigned a full crew based on the traffic situation. Couldn't a few sleepy Deltas go non-towered and their controllers be moved to hotspots?

You’re assuming that the sleepy Delta controllers wouldn’t actually make things worse at a busy Class B.

 

[172andyou]

You’re assuming that the sleepy Delta controllers wouldn’t actually make things worse at a busy Class B.

So move the sleepy D's to sleepy C's. And the sleepy C's to busier C's. And the busy C's to Reagan.

But, at the end of the day, I'm not sure what difference would be made. Based on what we currently know, the helicopter simply misidentified the traffic. Not sure what having better ATC staffing would have done to change things if that's the case.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Would it be reasonable for anyone in any airframe flying VFR in VMC at 300’ to be looking at a screen instead of outside?

Sure. One pilot head up and on the controls; other pilot navigating, monitoring systems, working radios, watching for traffic/obstacles, etc. Crew chief has a window too. @Velocity173 can speak to the details, but that's what I saw every time I looked up front.

 

[Half Fast]

So move the sleepy D's to sleepy C's. And the sleepy C's to busier C's. And the busy C's to Reagan.

But, at the end of the day, I'm not sure what difference would be made. Based on what we currently know, the helicopter simply misidentified the traffic. Not sure what having better ATC staffing would have done to change things if that's the case.

If the controller weren’t overloaded, he might not release a helo to handle its own separation. Chances are this has become common at Reagan (normalization of deviation), and it finally resulted in a disaster.

Many facilities have controllers working 10 hour days and 6 day workweeks. Is this the case at Reagan? Controller fatigue could be a contributing factor.

 

[MauleSkinner]

So move the sleepy D's to sleepy C's. And the sleepy C's to busier C's. And the busy C's to Reagan.

But, at the end of the day, I'm not sure what difference would be made.

Probably increased staffing problems as controllers quit rather than move.

 

[Velocity173]

Sure. One pilot head up and on the controls; other pilot navigating, monitoring systems, working radios, watching for traffic/obstacles, etc. Crew chief has a window too. @Velocity173 can speak to the details, but that's what I saw every time I looked up front.

Yep, that’s exactly how it’s briefed. The Mike model tends to bring guys inside though. I didn’t fly the Mike but I know guys who say they’re inside a lot playing with all the toys. Supposed to announce when “inside” as well. I was more of an outside guy anyway. Never was a fan of the HUD at night either. Always took it off unless I was doing an eval or receiving one.

Speaking of, sounds like an eval (APART) might have been going on. With a CW2 and a CPT up front, most likely the warrant was the IP / SP. SSG in the back for airspace surveillance. If that indeed was the case, then the typical roles can be reversed for training / evaluation. Still, the IP has the ultimate responsibility of not letting things get out of hand on a check ride. For instance, I sure wouldn’t be doing EPs or even asking stump the chump questions when flying through the approach corridor to a congested airport. All eyes out concentrating on traffic and terrain.

 

[TCABM]

….ATC is having staffing problems nationwide, but it does seem that certain airports should be given priority and assigned a full crew based on the traffic situation.…

1. Less than half the towers are FAA towers; more than half are contract.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/mission_support/faa_contract_tower_program

2. When was the last time manning levels were justified, so how do we know staffing level percentages are right sized and right placed?

 

[Larry in TN]

Perhaps wrong altimeter setting dialed in?

Mode-C reports pressure altitude rounded to the nearest 100'. You don't have to be 100' high for it to show 100' high. Lots of small errors can affect altimetry. Don't attribute a level of precision to the altitude readouts that the system is not technically capable of providing. The actual altitude of the aircraft will be analyzed in the investigation.

If the controller weren’t overloaded, he might not release a helo to handle its own separation. Chances are this has become common at Reagan (normalization of deviation), and it finally resulted in a disaster.

Helicopters maintaining visual separation from airliners in the vicinity of airports is normal procedure throughout the US. Happen safely hundreds of times everyday. There is no perfect procedure.

 

[172andyou]

2. When was the last time manning levels were justified, so how do we know staffing level percentages are right sized and right placed?

That's an interesting point. It's easy to look at the wreckage still being recovered and jump to conclusions. But isn't it also true this is the first domestic mass casualty in something like 20 years? The track record is still pretty extraordinarily good and provides, by far, the safest way to travel.

 

[Velocity173]

You know, unless there’s more audio that shows tower gave a proper traffic call, “do you have the CRJ in sight” is not a traffic call. How’s Pat25 even going to be able to tell a CRJ at night?

 

[midwestpa24]

On another board it has been said, although I cannot verify, that the Helo Route 4 down the river is not allowed if landing Runway 33.

If true:

1. The helo should not have been allowed by ATC to fly down the river while aircraft were landing Runway 33.

2. The CRJ should not have been directed by ATC to land Runway 33 knowing there was a helo on the route.

Either way, those aircraft should not have been within a mile of each other. The way it worked last night, even if things went according to plan, the two aircraft would have passed danger close to each other. That was one of my early questions, how could this route be established only planning for 100 to 200 foot vertical clearance between aircraft. That is not allowable separation anywhere!

The question I now have, was it common practice to allow Route 4 with aircraft landing Runway 33 in the past, if indeed that was not allowed?

 

[MauleSkinner]

You know, unless there’s more audio that shows tower gave a proper traffic call, “do you have the CRJ in sight” is not a traffic call. How’s Pat25 even going to be able to tell a CRJ at night?

Given the number of times I’ve seen pilots pointing at the wrong aircraft when they told ATC they had the traffic in sight, I’m not sure “night” is even a factor.

 

[Bill]

Depth perception has almost nothing to do with visual separation. Probably a little oversimplified, but If the aircraft is moving in your windshield, you’ll miss. If the aircraft is stationary in your windshield, you’ll hit.

One of the first things they teach you at OCS, CBDR.

 

[PPC1052]

Lastly, once the RJ was called out as a potential traffic conflict, the FIRST thing that I would have done would have been to make sure that I wss at 200 feet.

First thing should be eyes out looking for traffic.

 

[Velocity173]

Mike model has both CVR and FDR as well.

 

[TCABM]

Mike model has both CVR and FDR as well.

Will there be missing data?

 

[Larry in TN]

You know, unless there’s more audio that shows tower gave a proper traffic call, “do you have the CRJ in sight” is not a traffic call. How’s Pat25 even going to be able to tell a CRJ at night?

PAT25 reported the CRJ traffic in sight twice. They were transmitting on the helicopter Local frequency. Local was transmitting on both.

I'm not convinced he was looking at the correct airplane.

 

[Roller]

Everyone is a very important person to their friends and family. But in this context, "VIP" is a term of art with a generally understood meaning.

And no, we're not a monarchy, yet that doesn't change the fact that some people are more important to the smooth, safe, and effective operation of our country's government than others.

No


When 60 American passengers and 4 America crew die to protect a a VIP training mission, that’s a wrap, game over.

We need to roll back everything post 9/11, it was stupid and never made sense, the beauty of America is if you kill one of our politicians we just elect another one

I am not going to sacrifice my family for your “VIPs”, let alone for a VIP training mission

 

[Kelvin]

PAT25 reported the CRJ traffic in sight twice. They were transmitting on the helicopter Local frequency. Local was transmitting on both.

I'm not convinced he was looking at the correct airplane.

I thought that right away. If these guys were on night vision gear as is being reported, this would further exacerbate this issue.

 

[ahmad]

It appears the helicopter was supposed to be on a published route, but deviated both vertically and horizontally (drifting/turning westward into the path of the CRJ instead of hugging the eastern shore of the river per the charted route).

I agree with you.

I don't know if this is true but I read somewhere that the heli also didn't have the ADSB on?!?
I certainly can't blame the crj.

just a terrible tragedy and of course it is now become a political blame game.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

No


When 60 American passengers and 4 America crew die to protect a a VIP training mission, that’s a wrap, game over.

We need to roll back everything post 9/11, it was stupid and never made sense, the beauty of America is if you kill one of our politicians we just elect another one

I am not going to sacrifice my family for your “VIPs”, let alone for a VIP training mission

If we disallow training flights for crews whose purpose is to transport individuals, why not just disallow all training flights?

Training, right? Who needs it?

 

[bonefishpete]

RJ from what I heard was asked to circle to 33. I suppose they were planning rwy1. Could the RJ refuse the circle 33 and insist on a rwy 1 approach? If yes then we wouldn't be talking about this.

 

[MauleSkinner]

We need to roll back everything post 9/11, it was stupid and never made sense, the beauty of America is if you kill one of our politicians we just elect another one

Which post-9/11 change are you thinking is at play here?

 

[Larry in TN]

I don't know if this is true but I read somewhere that the heli also didn't have the ADSB on?!?

You'll read lots of things before the correct information comes out.

That type of military helicopter has ADSB-OUT but not ADSB-IN. That is why its ground track and altitudes were available immediately on the flight tracking sites.

RJ from what I heard was asked to circle to 33. I suppose they were planning rwy1. Could the RJ refuse the circle 33 and insist on a rwy 1 approach? If yes then we wouldn't be talking about this.

You are using 20/20 hindsight which wasn't particularly helpful at the time that the CRJ Captain made the decision to accept Rwy 33.

The visual to 1, change to 33, procedure is very common when in a north flow with good visibility at DCA. That crew had likely done it many times before. I've done it in a CRJ and trained for it in the 737. There is no reason to believe that that procedure had anything more to do with the accident than the fact that CRJs fly from ICT to DCA.

The problem appears to have been that visual separation failed. We need to find out why it failed and how to mitigate that cause.

 

[dans2992]

They didn’t have ADSB out. They were Mode S only. The only tracking site that had the helicopter’s path (that I’m aware of) was ADSBexchange, and that was due to triangulation via their ground network.

ADS-B Exchange - track aircraft live

ADS-B Exchange - track aircraft live - aircraft flight history

globe.adsbexchange.com

 

[Mahneuvers]

Thanks to everyone posting. I've learned so much from reading the expressed perspectives. A new years resolution was to decrease social media time including PoA. It's great that when I check in here there's a perspective available nowhere else.

 

[Velocity173]

No


When 60 American passengers and 4 America crew die to protect a a VIP training mission, that’s a wrap, game over.

We need to roll back everything post 9/11, it was stupid and never made sense, the beauty of America is if you kill one of our politicians we just elect another one

I am not going to sacrifice my family for your “VIPs”, let alone for a VIP training mission

Again, this has nothing to do with VIPs or post 9/11. They weren’t even operating as a VIP aircraft. It could’ve been any plain Jane UH-60 flying that route.

There are 8 major cities over the US with similar routes. Routes that even go directly above the airport. These aren’t reserved for the military as the media keeps trying to say. They’re FAA helicopter routes to assist in navigating around a busy fixed wing airspace. If everyone is doing what they’re supposed to be doing, there shouldn’t be any conflict. Obviously there was a breakdown in CRM and possibly ATC procedures.

 

[kyleb]

Vertical separation was not being used on the accident flights. They were applying visual separation.

It's been a moment since I wrote that, but I think my point was if the heli was at or below 200', which I understood was the altitude for that route, and if visual separation was in effect too, theoretically there would have been 2 layers of protection between the two aircraft. So, even if the visual separation wasn't maintained there would have been an altitude difference.