battery minder for a Concorde RG-2525XC question

DKirkpatrick

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DKirkpatrick
Hello. I know airplane stuf is expensive. But I just bought a new Concorde battery, and my a/p advises a battery minder. Then I learn they're $270, and you gotta buy one explicitly for Concorde. It's not a million, but wondering why the big jump in price for Concorde?? Thanks alot... dumb on this stuff.
 
thanks. but with all of them out there for half the price of the one that works with Concorde... you gotta ask "what am I getting that just costs so much?"
 
but wondering why the big jump in price for Concorde??
The unit is specifically internally adjusted to the requirements for a Concorde battery. Same for the Gill B-minder which are slightly different than Concordes. Limited market so higher price. The use of a standard B-minder will damage aircraft batteries over time due to the way they are adjusted for vehicle batteries.
 
I had one on my 182 and the battery has 7 years on it and still really strong. When I bought a new aircraft with a 6 mo old Concorde in it, the first purchase was a Concorde battery minder. If I get an extra two years out of a battery because of it, it is worth it IMO.
 
But I just bought a new Concorde battery, and my a/p advises a battery minder.
How often do you fly, and do you monitor the voltage in-flight?

I have a 5 year old RG-35AXC that has never been on a battery minder. I usually fly once a week or so, but bad and cold weather has been getting in the way lately. Plane sat for a month and then started just fine at 30°F. Flew it for three hours, put it back in the hangar.
Due to more bad weather I flew it agan three weeks later. This time the temperature overnight was in the single digits, the engine was preheated but the battery was definitely cold. Still cranked and started just fine.

Unless you let the plane sit for months at a time, and don't do much flying when you do fly, my opinion is that a battery minder doesn't add much value, if your charging system is working properly and your battery is clean, without current leakage paths.

If anything, a battery minder might mask a failing battery, which will start ok at your departure airport but leave you stranded 12 hours later at a remote field.

You can build a charger that you'd use once a month or so for a couple hours from about $40 worth of parts from Amazon, if you want to.
 
I’ve heard mixed thoughts on a battery minder. Some manufacturers even warn of a “slight decrease” in battery life if one is used. Ugh…
 
I’ve heard mixed thoughts on a battery minder. Some manufacturers even warn of a “slight decrease” in battery life if one is used. Ugh…
Only if you exceed the OEMs recommendations on its use. Otherwise the use of a proper battery minder is recommended by most OEMs to include Concorde to achieve the max battery life. As with anything battery related, too much or too little of proper charging reduces battery life in most cases. However, I've found in my experience even if you lean toward a bit excess with a battery minder you come out with a longer life than if you leaned in the other direction and let the battery OCV drop to a low value which definitely will lead to sulfation and permanent damage.
 
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I’ve heard mixed thoughts on a battery minder. Some manufacturers even warn of a “slight decrease” in battery life if one is used. Ugh…
Concorde has always recommended specific "BatteryMINDer" (specific brand, not generic descriptor) models for specific battery models. A few years ago, they updated the BM settings for better "full charge" performance.

Click on "Battery Chargers":
 
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Hello. I know airplane stuf is expensive. But I just bought a new Concorde battery, and my a/p advises a battery minder. Then I learn they're $270, and you gotta buy one explicitly for Concorde. It's not a million, but wondering why the big jump in price for Concorde?? Thanks alot... dumb on this stuff.
Be careful what you're comparing. There is a big difference between a trickle charger and a Battery Minder, and looking at Battery Minder's web site right now, all of the aviation battery minders are the same price, regardless of whether it's Concorde or not.

I do highly recommend Battery Minders (the specific brand). They may seem expensive, but batteries are way more expensive. Right now I have a Concorde that was installed in 2014 and a Gill that was installed in 2007. The Gill is finally to the point where I'll be replacing it at annual in a month, but the decade-old Concorde is in great shape.

Given that the Concorde was $500 when I installed it, it's probably $1000 now; I would expect maybe four years out of a battery that isn't on a battery minder. So, the Battery Minder paid for itself years ago.
How often do you fly, and do you monitor the voltage in-flight?

I have a 5 year old RG-35AXC that has never been on a battery minder. I usually fly once a week or so, but bad and cold weather has been getting in the way lately. Plane sat for a month and then started just fine at 30°F. Flew it for three hours, put it back in the hangar.
Due to more bad weather I flew it agan three weeks later. This time the temperature overnight was in the single digits, the engine was preheated but the battery was definitely cold. Still cranked and started just fine.
I've had a (car) battery go 10 years without a battery minder, but that's definitely not the norm.

I have yet to have an airplane battery last as *few* as 10 years with a battery minder on it.
You can build a charger that you'd use once a month or so for a couple hours from about $40 worth of parts from Amazon, if you want to.
But it will not be a desulfator like a Battery Minder is, just a trickle charger.
I’ve heard mixed thoughts on a battery minder. Some manufacturers even warn of a “slight decrease” in battery life if one is used. Ugh…
I've never heard of an actual user of battery minders say anything of the sort. I can see why battery manufacturers would warn against them, though, given that you'll buy batteries a lot less often if you use a battery minder.
 
Here’s an interesting discussion.


I’ve also had mechanics and service centers express that they’re very ineffective at best and damaging to the battery long term at worst.
That is interesting - However, keep in mind that on the TBM you can disconnect the battery far easier than most of us can. You also have a port for the Battery Minder, and one is included when you purchase the aircraft new so it clearly isn't a bad thing! I'm sure TBM owners are more sensitive to keeping batteries going because not only do you have a massive draw (400+ amps) at start, your battery also costs 5-10x what a piston battery costs. I know there's a lot of turbine owners that like to use a GPU for start as much as they can, but some FBOs don't like to do that for the TBM due to the location of the GPU port.

My big takeaway from this is that it's a good idea to let the battery cool prior to plugging the battery minder in. I probably don't have much to worry about because my battery is in the tail cone, and plugging it in is one of the last things I do before leaving the hangar. For you, it probably makes more sense to disconnect the battery and let it rest and then come back after a week if you haven't flown and plug in the battery minder.
 
I’ve also had mechanics and service centers express that they’re very ineffective at best and damaging to the battery long term at worst.
There are "battery chargers", "battery tenders", and "BatteryMINDers". They are not the same. There are also multiple versions of BatteryMINDers that are intended for different batteries.

Using a random charger/tender that was probably intended for a car battery is not the same thing as using the specific BatteyMINDer recommended for your aircraft battery. Among other features, BatteryMINDers have temperature probes to monitor battery temperatures and adjust charging voltages and currents to best protect the battery. There are probably lots of folks who don't realize there's a difference, including some mechanics. Using the wrong one can do more harm than good. Using the correct one can do a lot more good than never using one, even if you have to keep it plugged in all the time, if you don't fly frequently enough to keep the battery charged.

 
I’ve also had mechanics and service centers express that they’re very ineffective at best and damaging to the battery long term at worst.
Interesting. Thats the complete opposite of my experience with both airplanes and helicopters. Below is the Concorde bulletin on maintenance charging. You'll note at the top of page 3 it states while continuous mx charging is possible its not recommended "over a long period of time." You'll find in practice that "long period of time" will equate up to 7+ years vs batteries that are not mx charged which may only last 3-5 years depending on usage. Regardless, most batteries are permanently "damaged" at installation by not following OEM instructions or allowed to discharge for extended periods without a proper recharge cycle which continous mx charging with a proper charger doesnt even come close to.

https://batterymanagement.concordebattery.com/BatteryDocs/TB15.pdf
 
I have a few friends who just use the normal 24v ones with no issues
 
What a Battery MINDer does is NOT continuous charging. It has a micro processor and monitors the charge level and does what is needed to safely keep the batter topped up.

Concorde used to recommend full time use of a Battery MINDer, but now suggest giving the battery a break every so often. But many people have kept their battery on a Battery MINDer full time without issue.

Definitely DO NOT use an auto charger on an aircraft battery, except for a short period of time. You will damage the battery.

BTW, there is a Battery Tender brand that makes very good auto smart charges. I have used them for years on my cars.
 
One feature that the more expensive 'Concorde specific' chargers have is temperature compensation. It is very beneficial to the life of the battery.
 
Not necessarily about saving money but about going to an airplane that starts when you want it to.
 
One of the advantages of AGM batteries like the Concorde is a low self-discharge rate, especially at low temperatures. Unless you are not flying once a month, an AGM battery should be just fine unless your aircraft charging system is not properly maintained. I've never had an issue with Concorde batteries sans battery minder for over 20-30 years. Even in the snowy winter months where I might go more than a month without use.
 
thanks to all for great contributions to the discussion. Can answer one question... I'm guilty, I get busy and don't regularly fly. The old(er) Gill bat has done its job well... but going with this Concorde and battery minder system will mean I don't have to get into a really tight space to get the top off the battery box, even worse, replace the battery box w those two pins in a dark space through the little door in the cowl. Makes the decision less technical, I know, but stuff like that takes the fun out of flying... THERE, done w my rant. Thanks for your help w great info!!
 
One of the advantages of AGM batteries like the Concorde is a low self-discharge rate, especially at low temperatures. Unless you are not flying once a month, an AGM battery should be just fine unless your aircraft charging system is not properly maintained. I've never had an issue with Concorde batteries sans battery minder for over 20-30 years. Even in the snowy winter months where I might go more than a month without use.
As you mention in your first sentence, self-discharge rates decrease with decreasing temperature. Your last sentence might be better written as, "Especially in the snowy winter months..."

It's more of a problem for us who live in the sun belt, especially if there are any additional parasitic losses from aircraft systems. Even seeing consistent temps in the 90s/100s a healthy battery should still be able to tolerate its own self-discharge for a couple of months, but a battery kept in the fridge would take about a year to lose the same charge. (Chart below from https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-802b-what-does-elevated-self-discharge-do )

1738277337993.png
 
I've read the guidance from BatteryMinder and Concorde about the need to use a battery charger that is precisely tuned to the unique needs of a Concorde battery. Seemed plausible, but I would have liked to see some data comparing the average capacities as a function of time of a number of batteries which used a BatteryMinder regularly vs. a number of batteries that were simply flown regularly.

That got me thinking about the charging system in my plane. Since I typically fly about weekly all year round, my plane's battery experiences relatively little self discharge, and most charging of my plane's battery comes from the alternator/voltage regulator immediately after starting up the engine. As far as I can tell, my plane's voltage regulator is not precisely tuned to the unique needs of my Concorde battery. It's just a 20+ year old Zeftronics VR that was probably made before Concorde sealed AGM batteries were a big thing.

Does anyone make a voltage regulator that is made to charge a particular brand of battery? I don't recall reading about any. So if it isn't important enough for the primary charging device for a plane's battery to be tuned for a particular brand of battery, why is it so important that it's maintainer be tuned?
 
why is it so important that it's maintainer be tuned?
Because you are talking about to separate tasks. In general, when you are operating the aircraft the battery power is being consumed by the electrical system and the alternator/regulator are designed to support the entire electrical system to include the battery. And the regulator is "tuned" to provide optimum charging rates and electrical load requirements. The only variance in "tuning" a regulator would be for a system change/requirement or in some instances you would change the voltage setting due to ambient temperature changes. For example, at my old day job we had a summer regulator setting and a winter regulator setting for certain helicopters to keep the batteries at the proper levels.

Charging a battery on its own with no power consumption requires a more precise level of charging and the reason for battery specific chargers. In general, most standard DC chargers will charge at a higher voltage and at a faster rate than a Concorde or similar battery can accept and can be damaged in the process. And as mentioned above the Concorde chargers will also compensate for ambient temp changes which is another requirement not needed on standard batteries. Questions?
 
I've read the guidance from BatteryMinder and Concorde about the need to use a battery charger that is precisely tuned to the unique needs of a Concorde battery. Seemed plausible, but I would have liked to see some data comparing the average capacities as a function of time of a number of batteries which used a BatteryMinder regularly vs. a number of batteries that were simply flown regularly.
If you fly regularly, then you don't need a BatteryMINDer. You would see little difference between the batteries in the test you describe.

But a lot of planes don't fly regularly. That's the situation a BatteryMINDer can help with.

That got me thinking about the charging system in my plane. Since I typically fly about weekly all year round, my plane's battery experiences relatively little self discharge, and most charging of my plane's battery comes from the alternator/voltage regulator immediately after starting up the engine. As far as I can tell, my plane's voltage regulator is not precisely tuned to the unique needs of my Concorde battery. It's just a 20+ year old Zeftronics VR that was probably made before Concorde sealed AGM batteries were a big thing.

Does anyone make a voltage regulator that is made to charge a particular brand of battery? I don't recall reading about any. So if it isn't important enough for the primary charging device for a plane's battery to be tuned for a particular brand of battery, why is it so important that it's maintainer be tuned?
When a battery is charged during a 2 hr flight the charge environment only needs to be "good enough". But you wouldn't want the battery to see that charge environment 24/7/365. The more tailored design of the BatteryMINDer addresses the scenario where you hook it up not knowing whether it will be plugged in for a day or for 3 months.
 
keep in mind cost of battery vs cost of battery maintainer. . On most piston planes - a battery isnt that much. On some of these turboprops - the battery is 4k each - and sometimes need 2. So its best to keep the battery in the best shape possible for longevity/cost. . . On my plane, the batteries are good for 2-3 years tops (starting is hard on the batteries) - so I keep them topped off with a battery minder. I dont keep them connected all the time - just once every week for 12 hours is all. that way if it sits for a couple weeks, it'll be "maintained". How does this compare to say using a noco/ctek/whatever other battery trickle charger that is 1/3 of the price (or less) ? Don't know. But this does seem to be recommended by the battery manufacturers and the batteries are expensive compared to the small maintainers.

also, if you do need to claim warranty for say a concorde battery (highly unlikely as the window is 12 months for turbines and I think 24 for pistons) - using a battery minder might help you get some partial credits. I would certainly not mention that I was using a 3rd party charger that they dont recommend as being ok.
 
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keep in mind cost of battery vs cost of battery maintainer. . On most piston planes - a battery isnt that much. On some of these turboprops - the battery is 4k each - and sometimes need 2.
Last Concorde I bought for the Mooney was a decade ago and that was $500. And a TBM's battery was about $5K, 5 years ago. I'm sure both have increased significantly by now.

And considering how much longer my Concorde has lasted, the Battery Minder has already paid for itself.
 
AGM batteries have a problem with sulfation if repeatedly only partially charged to less than 100%. If your battery is healthy and you're flying regularly for an hour or more (not just "warming the oil" for a few minutes), you're probably charging to 100%. AGM batteries also have a problem with being repeatedly discharged below about 50% state of charge. If you're seeing that low state of charge (less than around 12.3 vdc static charge), you probably don't have a healthy battery, or you have a large parasitic drain. Have your battery tested annually, fly regularly (or at least have your battery properly charged periodically).

If you do decide to go with a battery minder, the Concorde warranty does not specify a particular model of charger only that it complies with the requirements of their "CMM". not all batter "minder" are gonna meet those specs. But, I suspect you can find a good AGM battery charger that does meet those requirements on Amazon.com for about $70.
 
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