Frost removal - removal ideas

saddletramp

saddletramp

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saddletramp
One of the Skyhawks I instruct in has to sit outside. Last week the frost was easy to remove by spraying water on the surfaces with a nearby hose. The temperatures were just under freezing so the water we sprayed on never froze. This week were going to be in the low 20's & barely above freezing during the day.

Short of wing covers any other easy way to remove the frost?
 
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previously
J

Thread 'De-frost?'

I flew up to Kent State University (1G3) from Tampa and as I was getting ready to depart 1G3, a friendly gentleman working the ramp sprayed the wings with some kind of garden sprayer that he had to pump. He told me they were using it on all the university aircraft and it was to remove and prevent frost. I'll admit I have never seen this before and I am interested in learning more about what it is and what it does. I'm interested if anyone here uses this as well and what exactly is in the garden sprayer? Thanks.
 
Oh this brings back distant memories of living in Canada (only moved to the south 4 months ago, but I keep the cold weather memories FAR away anyways lol).

Best solution: Pull in a hangar for 10 minutes.
2nd Best solution: Sun and wait. Even if it's really cold, if you put the plane in the sun, the frost will disappear within about an hour.
3rd best solution: RV antifreeze in spray bottle.
4th best solution: Use your credit card to scrape it off. Royal PITA but works. Wear really good gloves lol.
 
I used water in a gallon bottle i carry in my cars pouring over the frosted wings of a da40…oh say ten years ago. Instantly froze made it much worse had to them put it in the heated hanger. Lesson learnt
 
I’m surprised nobody has mentioned isopropyl alcohol yet. Mix it in a spray bottle with a 2:1 ratio with water and bam!
 
I’ve used RV antifreeze (glycol), as well as the credit card method. My current airport will deice your bugsmasher for $25 which I consider a bargain compared to using a credit card.
 
I also carry old towels in the plane to wipe the melted ice/frost off so it will not refreeze. I do it mainly after being put in a hangar to defrost.
 
nuclear_blast.jpg


Possible long term side effect of more frost.
 
West of the Cascades, when there's frost on the wings and you're not socked in, it usually means the best way to defrost is to turn the airplane so the tail is toward the sun as soon as you get to the airport. By the time you're done waiting for the fuel truck and preflighting, the frost is mostly gone from the wings and tail.
 
saddletramp said:
One of the Skyhawks I instruct in has to sit outside. Last week the frost was easy to remove by spraying water on the surfaces with a nearby hose. The temperatures were just under freezing so the water we sprayed on never froze.
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I highly recommend NOT doing that. Such things have caused crashes when the water got into things like control surface hinges and re-froze.

@Chrisgoesflying has a pretty good list.

There is always the option of getting an actual de-ice from the airport as well, but that will likely be $$$$$... See below.

AlleyCat67 said:
I’ve used RV antifreeze (glycol), as well as the credit card method. My current airport will deice your bugsmasher for $25 which I consider a bargain compared to using a credit card.
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That is a MASSIVE bargain.

FWIW, a couple years ago I went to an early-January Green Bay Packers game at Lambeau. It was cold, and it was clear, and that is when frost will form. So I bit the bullet and paid the $250 special event hangar rate for the Mooney to be inside for a few hours.

My friend who did not do that with his RV-10 came back to a frosty plane and had them squirt some Type I (orange, heated) deicing fluid on it for him. $700. I didn't feel so bad about the hangar fee after that - But in a pinch, you can do it. I've heard of a Bonanza being done for $1000 too. Normally, I'd expect a $1000 bill for both type I and type IV on a TBM but prices vary, of course.

Brrrrr.IMG_3218.jpg
 
I’ve noticed a big difference in drama between guys who rarely if ever see frost and guys who deal with it as a part of everyday life.

The worst part of wing covers is the moisture on the underside that freezes hard to the wings and tail with temperature swings that happen when using wing covers. A little frost isn’t a show stopper. Rub it off or use a rope. If it’s bad enough to need heat, I spray a little warm RV anti freeze. It isn’t the glycol that does the magic, it’s the heat. Glycol stores and transmits heat well, and doesn’t freeze quickly when it cools. Hard ice that’s shaped like the wrinkles in the wing covers is harder to remove, especially if temps are single digit or colder. That requires more heat. I’ve used a blow dryer, diesel unit heaters, etc, but the best tool for that is a Red Dragon, which is about the only thing one of those POS heaters is good for. I don’t prefer to blow heat on fabric airplanes, though. Carefully applied heat on the metal substrate leading edges is no problem.
 

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saddletramp said:
One of the Skyhawks I instruct in has to sit outside. Last week the frost was easy to remove by spraying water on the surfaces with a nearby hose. The temperatures were just under freezing so the water we sprayed on never froze. This week were going to be in the low 20's & barely above freezing during the day.

Short of wing covers any other easy way to remove the frost?
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Why would anyone even want to get out of bed at 20 degrees?
 
Stewartb said:
I’ve noticed a big difference in drama between guys who rarely if ever see frost and guys who deal with it as a part of everyday life.

The worst part of wing covers is the moisture on the underside that freezes hard to the wings and tail with temperature swings that happen when using wing covers. A little frost isn’t a show stopper. Rub it off or use a rope. If it’s bad enough to need heat, I spray a little warm RV anti freeze. It isn’t the glycol that does the magic, it’s the heat. Glycol stores and transmits heat well, and doesn’t freeze quickly when it cools. Hard ice that’s shaped like the wrinkles in the wing covers is harder to remove, especially if temps are single digit or colder. That requires more heat. I’ve used a blow dryer, diesel unit heaters, etc, but the best tool for that is a Red Dragon, which is about the only thing one of those POS heaters is good for. I don’t prefer to blow heat on fabric airplanes, though. Carefully applied heat on the metal substrate leading edges is no problem.
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Yeah, no doubt you have more exposure in that realm than most of the rest of us. Another factor though is the type aircraft. If I was flying some STOL thing I would likely be much more tolerant than if I am flying my skinny little wing Lancair. It's those days when I am using a credit card and RV antifreeze that I'm envious of the thicker winged aircraft.
 
Stewartb said:
It isn’t the glycol that does the magic
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Um... I have three words for you: feeezing point depression. Glycol absolutely does the magic.
Stewartb said:
Glycol stores and transmits heat well
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Water heat capacity: 4.184 J/g•K
Glycol heat capacity: 2.49 J/g•K

Water heat conductivity: 0.6 W/m•K
Glycol heat conductivity: 0.25 W/m•K
 
AV8R_87 said:
Um... I have three words for you: feeezing point depression. Glycol absolutely does the magic.

Water heat capacity: 4.184 J/g•K
Glycol heat capacity: 2.49 J/g•K

Water heat conductivity: 0.6 W/m•K
Glycol heat conductivity: 0.25 W/m•K
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On a cold day, go spray 10° glycol on a frosted wing and 90°glycol on the other. Which works better?

Been doing this for a long time. I’ve kept a steel garden sprayer with RV anti freeze in my shed and now my hangar for 25 years. I can’t count how many times I’ve used it on my Cessna. My slat wing Cub has far less outdoor parking time so I’ve avoided needing it on that plane.

In Alaska, mesh wing covers are popular. If you want an education on de-icing? Deal with mesh covers that had snow on them, stayed on through a warm spell, and then had the temps plummet. Removing the covers reveals a mesh pattern in hard ice. These days if I use mesh covers I put the solid covers on first. Live and learn.
 
Let the sun do the work, or ask to put in a heated hangar for 30 min. That’s about how long it will take you to manually remove the frost anyhow.

You gents heard the story of the old bull and the young bull standing on the hill looking down on the herd of cows?
 
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Stewartb said:
On a cold day, go spray 10° glycol on a frosted wing and 90°glycol on the other. Which works better?
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A gallon of 60% glycol at 10°F will melt an additional gallon of ice through freezing point depression alone.
The same gallon, heated to 90°F, will melt an extra quarter of a gallon of ice through its stored heat.
It will also accelerate the physical reaction of the glycol mixing with the meltwater, speeding up the melting through freezing point depression which is what will prevent that water from freezing again in your control surfaces.

So yes, while heat does help, saying that the glycol isn't doing "the magic" creates a dangerous mindset for an unsuspecting pilot that might be tempted to just go in the FBO and grab a gallon of hot tap water.
 
Typical RV anti freeze for potable water systems, the kind I can allow to hit the ground and not worry about the DEC coming for me or dogs dying from licking it, works far better when heated. Is that accurate enough to not raise your ire? I’m just a dumb pilot who lives in Alaska, so what would I know?

By the way, hot tap water works, too, if the OAT isn’t too low. That there’s some more Alaskan hillbilly wisdom.
 
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RyanB said:
I’m surprised nobody has mentioned isopropyl alcohol yet. Mix it in a spray bottle with a 2:1 ratio with water and bam!
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That doesn't work on the Canadian prairies. We ended with more ice after we did that. The alcohol evaporates, absorbing heat from the wing as it does so, lowering the temperature of the wing skin so that the water that remains freezes into hard little droplets that are now stuck real tight.

AV8R_87 said:
Um... I have three words for you: feeezing point depression. Glycol absolutely does the magic.
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It works much better if it's heated. It flows out better and starts the melt faster.

In the flight school, early on, the guys were trying isopropyl, with the result I gave above. It's also flammable. I finally bought a drum of the orange (Type I) deice fluid; couldn't get it in smaller containers. I bought a garden sprayer and we used that, with room-temp deicer. When I heated it, though, it sure worked a lot better. Some of the value of heating is the raising of the skin temperature, allowing the frost or ice to melt much faster. The manufacturers of that deice fluid strongly recommended heating it.

Transport Canada has lots to say about heating the stuff, among many other things regarding deicing:

Heating Type I Deicing Fluids
The effectiveness of a Type I deicing fluid in removing frozen contaminants from an aircraft’s critical surfaces is principally the result of it being applied at a heated temperature.

The time of protection provided by Type I fluids is directly related to the heat input to the aircraft’s critical surfaces. Therefore, in order to achieve the published HOT values for Type I fluids, the fluids must be heated as indicated.

The following points should be noted regarding heating Type I fluids:

  1. Standby heated storage. Deicing fluid should not be stored at a high temperature since prolonged heating may lead to fluid degradation or increased concentration of glycol. It may be maintained in heated standby storage before or during the active deicing events to save time when heating to the final application temperature. If heated, the fluid should be kept in the standby mode at a temperature that does not exceed the temperature recommended by the fluid manufacturer. Avoid heating during idle times because this may result in thermally induced degradation.
  2. Heating for application. Follow the fluid manufacturer’s recommendation. Typically, temperatures should be in the range of plus 60°C to plus 82°C.
"HOT values" refers to the HoldOver Time of the fluid after application, when it will continue to discourage further ice or frost formation.

And it's hot. 60 to 82°C is 140 to 180°F. Hot stuff, far above someone's figure of 90°F.

https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/pu...raft-ground-icing-operations-tp-14052#toc-811

Some airport people get really worked up about that stuff dripping onto the ramp. With airline operations they have dedicated spray ramps with drainage to catch the stuff before it gets into the soil.

It can also stain the airplane, requiring a good wash to remove.
 
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Dan Thomas said:
I finally bought a drum of the orange (Type I) deice fluid; couldn't get it in smaller containers. I bought a garden sprayer and we used that, with room-temp deicer. When I heated it, though, it sure worked a lot better. Some of the value of heating is the raising of the skin temperature, allowing the frost or ice to melt much faster.

"HOT values" refers to the HoldOver Time of the fluid after application, when it will continue to discourage further ice or frost formation.

And it's hot. 60 to 82°C is 140 to 180°F. Hot stuff, far above someone's figure of 90°F.
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Also, FWIW, the holdover times even with fluid that hot aren't long. In "active frost" conditions on a metal airplane, it only prevents new frost for 45 minutes, and for any sort of freezing precipitation it's between 2 and 18 minutes (18 being in "very light" snow at warmer temperatures). Normally around 10 minutes, which is hardly enough time to get back to the runway. That's why Type IV exists, but that would be somewhat difficult to use in a piston aircraft as it sticks to the top of your wing until 100 knots.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Also, FWIW, the holdover times even with fluid that hot aren't long. In "active frost" conditions on a metal airplane, it only prevents new frost for 45 minutes, and for any sort of freezing precipitation it's between 2 and 18 minutes (18 being in "very light" snow at warmer temperatures). Normally around 10 minutes, which is hardly enough time to get back to the runway. That's why Type IV exists, but that would be somewhat difficult to use in a piston aircraft as it sticks to the top of your wing until 100 knots.
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If you need type IV, you probably shouldn't be flying a single engine piston ( or a twin)
 
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Chrisgoesflying said:
I’ve got an app on my phone for that. My a** is staying in bed.
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Not the greatest hangar (and getting more expensive every year) but it has electricity. Prop covers, engine cover and I can turn the engine heater on from home with the app. Of course the high today in Denver is 3F, so forget it. Not going outside for anything! Wed should be in the 40s, that I'll fly. On the other hand, having DA under 2400 ft is appealing. But no, it's too cold.
 
Hang 4 said:
If you need type IV, you probably shouldn't be flying a single engine piston ( or a twin)
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At least not unless it's FIKI. But yeah, I agree and I put that there for completeness only. And I can't think of any piston twins still in common use that rotate at 100 knots anyway.
murphey said:
Not the greatest hangar (and getting more expensive every year) but it has electricity. Prop covers, engine cover and I can turn the engine heater on from home with the app. Of course the high today in Denver is 3F, so forget it. Not going outside for anything! Wed should be in the 40s, that I'll fly. On the other hand, having DA under 2400 ft is appealing. But no, it's too cold.
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The DA at my home drome right now is 4,274 feet. BELOW sea level. Brrrr. M19/M26 A3045
 
flyingcheesehead said:
At least not unless it's FIKI. But yeah, I agree and I put that there for completeness only. And I can't think of any piston twins still in common use that rotate at 100 knots anyway.

The DA at my home drome right now is 4,274 feet. BELOW sea level. Brrrr. M19/M26 A3045
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Yeah but I start at 5500 MSL.
 
wayneda40 said:
TKS fluid in a garden sprayer.
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That exactly what I do. I warm it first, in an FBO’s kitchen sink, by placing the sprayer in a bucket of hot water. Works great.

A silicone car squeegee helps, for wiping the liquid after applying and melting the frost.
 
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