When should I ignore SID NOTEs?

Jim_R

Jim_R

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Jim
OK, that's a loaded question. What I'm really wondering is whether I'm misunderstanding something, whether there's an error in the published procedure, or whether there's another explanation. And if there's an error, is there anything I could/should do to feed that back to someone who might care to correct it?

Last weekend I flew from TKI to T41. I've flown this route dozens of times over the last 10 years and about 98.6% of the time I was assigned this route: JPOOL7.CLL.BLUBL4 (the numbers changed over time, of course).

In the last update cycle, the BLUBL STAR into Houston was apparently retired. The closest equivalent is now SNDAY, and it shares a transition waypoint with JPOOL: ELLVR. "Great," I think, "So the new preferred route is probably JPOOL7.ELLVR.SNDAY1."

For funsies, I log into FltPlan.com and try to create and file a flight plan using the JPOOL7.ELLVR.SNDAY1 route, but I get this error:
1733156191955.png

Reading the JPOOL procedure more closely, I find this: 1733156015960.pngI am neither a turbojet nor destined to one of those 4 airports. I guess I can't use that transition?

So I decide that instead of trying to read ATC's mind, I'll just file a dummy flight plan using DIRECT routing and see what they change it to.

And I get: JPOOL7.ELLVR.SNDAY1 !!

Then I think, "Well, ATC sometimes calls an audible when I call for my clearance, so let's see what they change it to when I actually fly tomorrow."

But McKinney Ground clears me to T41 via radar vectors to JPOOL7.ELLVR.SNDAY1 !!

So: What gives? Am I misinterpreting this: 1733156468843.png? Does the JPOOL SID have an error such that that NOTE should be deleted or modified?

Is there some other reason I should not be surprised/confused by this situation?
 
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Have you tried filing it via another service? An error on the FltPlan.com end is a possibility. I notice that the note does not say

NOTE: ELLVR Transition: Only For turbojet aircraft destined to HOU, EFD, GLS, or LBX​

The other possibility that comes to mind right away is that while the Center computer won't accept a piston filing the SID with ELLVR, there's nothing preventing ATC from assigning it. I always go back to my SID & STAR 101: A SID or STAR is just a bunch of published ATC instructions.

FWIW, the only time I file a SID or STAR is when it comes up as a commonly assigned route or I know it's regularly assigned. Otherwise, i just treat them as something ATC assigs rather than something I request.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
FWIW, the only time I file a SID or STAR is when it comes up as a commonly assigned route or I know it's regularly assigned. Otherwise, i just treat them as something ATC assigs rather than something I request.
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In this case, I've been "trained" to file this way by ATC. Historically, if I filed direct, then ~4 out of 5 times I'd get the JPOOL.CLL.BLUBL route, but the other times I'd get something I liked less. Once I started filing JPOOL.CLL.BLUBL, I got it 100% of the time. I prefer to get the devil I know, but YMMV.
 
midlifeflyer said:
For jollies, I filed your route using Foreflight. It was accepted and, so far at least, the only thing that came back was to expect "as filed."
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That's a good data point. Maybe it's just that FltPlan.com is overly restrictive.

FWIW, I contacted FltPlan.com tech support to ask them if the error checking could happen when the user attempted to file the flight plan, which is the step after generating a nav log, but they said, "Yeah, nah, nothing's going to change." Yet another reason to be annoyed by Garmin...
 
Jim_R said:
In this case, I've been "trained" to file this way by ATC. Historically, if I filed direct, then ~4 out of 5 times I'd get the JPOOL.CLL.BLUBL route, but the other times I'd get something I liked less. Once I started filing JPOOL.CLL.BLUBL, I got it 100% of the time. I prefer to get the devil I know, but YMMV.
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In your case, sure, file it. When I know the devil, I do too.
 
Jim_R said:
But McKinney Ground clears me to T41 via radar vectors to JPOOL7.ELLVR.SNDAY1 !!
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TKI Ground cleared you for it, but did you actually fly it? Or did you get an amendment to your routing before reaching the STAR?

Also, I may be missing something, or maybe it was just a typo on your part, but your title asks about notes on SIDs, whereas your question seems to be about notes on STARs. I don't think the answer or thought process is any different, but did you mean to ask a question about the SID as well?
 
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RussR said:
TKI Ground cleared you for it, but did you actually fly it? Or did you get an amendment to your routing before reaching the STAR?
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Not sure why that matters. The original question was about why the SID transition doesn't seem to apply to SE pistons but I got assigned it anyway. FWIW, ATC typically vectors me more or less due south until I'm south of Mesquite. I then get cleared direct to some point closer to Houston (either because ATC offers it or I request it). So no, I don't typically fly it.

RussR said:
Also, I may be missing something, or maybe it was just a typo on your part, but your title asks about notes on SIDs, whereas your question seems to be about notes on STARs. I don't think the answer or thought process is any different, but did you mean to ask a question about the SID as well?
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You're missing something: JPOOL is a SID, and it's JPOOL that had the 1733186643901.pngThat's why FltPlan.com wouldn't let me build a route with the ELLVR transition (as confirmed by my email exchange with FP.com tech support).
 
Jim_R said:
Not sure why that matters. The original question was about why the SID transition doesn't seem to apply to SE pistons but I got assigned it anyway. FWIW, ATC typically vectors me more or less due south until I'm south of Mesquite. I then get cleared direct to some point closer to Houston (either because ATC offers it or I request it). So no, I don't typically fly it.
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I'm not 100% sure, but I think it may matter. The ATC computers don't always seem to know about what goes on in other facilities. You file direct, get cleared as filed by one facility and then a facility 500 nm later puts you on a STAR that probably should have been assigned to you by the computer in your initial clearance. Versions of this happen all the time. So that made me wonder if you did actually get to fly the jet transition or not, because if you did, I'd really wonder why they're assigning you a jet-only transition.

For the ATC computer to know the jet-ness of the transition, that information would have to be encoded into the computer - I'm not sure if it is, maybe others can speak to that. If it's not, though, then it doesn't surprise me that the computer spat it out for you. But if a human assigned it to you once you were airborne, or even just kept you on it, that implies that they don't care (or know) about the jet-ness of the transition, which is obviously a different issue.

Jim_R said:
You're missing something: JPOOL is a SID, and it's JPOOL that had the View attachment 135846That's why FltPlan.com wouldn't let me build a route with the ELLVR transition (as confirmed by my email exchange with FP.com tech support).
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You are right. I read too fast. Lo siento mucho.
 
RussR said:
I'm not 100% sure, but I think it may matter. The ATC computers don't always seem to know about what goes on in other facilities. You file direct, get cleared as filed by one facility and then a facility 500 nm later puts you on a STAR that probably should have been assigned to you by the computer in your initial clearance.
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I agree that happens sometimes. That's not what happened in this case. My initial clearance was not "as filed" (which was "direct"). The ATC computer changed my "direct" to: JPOOL SID to the SNDAY STAR glued together at the ELLVR transition, and Ground didn't change it when I called for my clearance.

RussR said:
For the ATC computer to know the jet-ness of the transition, that information would have to be encoded into the computer - I'm not sure if it is, maybe others can speak to that. If it's not, though, then it doesn't surprise me that the computer spat it out for you. But if a human assigned it to you once you were airborne, or even just kept you on it, that implies that they don't care (or know) about the jet-ness of the transition, which is obviously a different issue.
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FltPlan.com thinks it knows the "jet-ness" of the transition, but apparently it's wrong about that. Per midlifeflyer, apparently Foreflight ignores that constraint. Next time, I'll try filing that route via iFlyEFB/1800wxbrief.com and see if it complains. (I'm one of the 17 pilots in the world who doesn't use Foreflight.)
 
ELLVR transition is for the Jets, but it continues beyond ELLVN to College Station CSN, which is used for piston to the HOU area, so JPOOL7.ELLVR is the same as JPOOL.CSN lite. :). I doubt that ERAM is adapted to block piston aircraft from filing JPOOL7.ELLVR, in spite of the note.
 
John Collins said:
ELLVR transition is for the Jets, but it continues beyond ELLVN to College Station CSN, which is used for piston to the HOU area, so JPOOL7.ELLVR is the same as JPOOL.CSN lite. :). I doubt that ERAM is adapted to block piston aircraft from filing JPOOL7.ELLVR, in spite of the note.
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Yeah, that gets to the next question I have, which is, "Why is the ELLVR transition restricted to turbojets, anyway?"
 
Jim_R said:
Yeah, that gets to the next question I have, which is, "Why is the ELLVR transition restricted to turbojets, anyway?"
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Who says it is restricted to turbojets (other than, I guess, FltPlan.com)? I pointed out the lack of the word "only" earlier. "For" turbojets is not the same as "restricted to" or "only for" turbojets. "For turbojet aircraft destined to HOU, EFD, GLS, or LBX" can simply be referring to a preference for using ELLVR as a traffic management transition when turbojets are going from TKI to one of those four airports. It doesn't preclude its use for other purposes.

Note the different language in the series of notes.
1733250686185.png
 
midlifeflyer said:
Who says it is restricted to turbojets (other than, I guess, FltPlan.com)? I pointed out the lack of the word "only" earlier. "For" turbojets is not the same as "restricted to" or "only for" turbojets. "For turbojet aircraft destined to HOU, EFD, GLS, or LBX" can simply be referring to a preference for using ELLVR as a traffic management transition when turbojets are going from TKI to one of those four airports. It doesn't preclude its use for other purposes.

Note the different language in the series of notes.
View attachment 135878
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I agree it's weird that the TORNN uses the word "Only" but the others don't.

But if "only" isn't implied in the others...then my question becomes "why have those notes at all"? If it's just trying to indicate a preferred route for certain types of aircraft and/or destinations, that seems a poor way of wording it.

Their wording seems excessively careful on the COLLEGE STATION transition if "only" is not implied in the first part.
 
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Jim_R said:
I agree it's weird that the TORNN uses the word "Only" but the others don't.

But if "only" isn't implied in the others...then my question becomes "why have those notes at all"? If it's just trying to indicate a preferred route for certain types of aircraft and/or destinations, that seems a poor way of wording it.
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Managing expectations?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Managing expectations?
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I dunno...I guess maybe? But there are jillions of possible combos of SIDs/STARs and other routes, and we all know that the computer consistently spits out certain routes most commonly. Not all of those get special notations to help you guess what you're likely to get. So...why are some special enough to get notes? (shrug)
 
My guess is that ELLVR feeds into a STAR transition used in the HOU area. I checked and it seems that ELLVR.SNDAY1 is used as an arrival transition. There may be others?
 
John Collins said:
My guess is that ELLVR feeds into a STAR transition used in the HOU area. I checked and it seems that ELLVR.SNDAY1 is used as an arrival transition. There may be others?
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I guess you didn't read my OP:

Jim_R said:
In the last update cycle, the BLUBL STAR into Houston was apparently retired. The closest equivalent is now SNDAY, and it shares a transition waypoint with JPOOL: ELLVR. "Great," I think, "So the new preferred route is probably JPOOL7.ELLVR.SNDAY1."
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You mean they let you actually fly a STARS into Houston and not vector you around everything for an hour?!
 
JVerb said:
You mean they let you actually fly a STARS into Houston and not vector you around everything for an hour?!
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I've only come in on the southeast side over the bay and my vectoring has been minimal. They drop me low further out than I like but not too bad unless it is in the summer. I been in to AXH and IWS with little meandering.
 
JVerb said:
You mean they let you actually fly a STARS into Houston and not vector you around everything for an hour?!
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I never said that. What I file, what I get as an initial clearance, and what I actually fly are always at least two and sometimes three different things. But the initial clearance always includes a STAR.

That said, from Dallas to Houston I'm usually either vectored east through the I-10 corridor, or around the east side of the IAH Bravo (depending on which way IAH traffic is flowing) to my destination on the east side of the metro. Neither of those routes are onerous, and it's essentially what I'd fly if I were VFR anyway.
 
I get STARs going into IAD in the Navion on occasion.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Houston is the only place I've gotten a STAR when flying a normally aspirated piston GA aircraft.
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The DRONE arrival into the Norfolk VA area is regularly assigned to light pistons arriving from the Raleigh area, even to some of the close by nontowered airports. It’s just a preferred routing.
 
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