Plane expenses planning. I need some real world examples.

scarpozzi

scarpozzi

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SCARPOZZI
My plan was to get a plane for 250-300nm trips to a few select cities...and for time building mostly for hobby after getting my PPL. I considered flying to NFL games in the Fall and then using the plane to fly to the coast throughout the Winter months just to get away for long weekends. Commercial flight seems to work better for my family, so this would mostly be me and maybe one passenger...but possible short trips for 4 people.

I've looked at Cherokees and Arrows to keep the costs low, but also considered something like a Mooney M20F or a Cherokee 180/235 (though they're priced too high anymore)

If I buy one of those planes for $70-110k and pay in cash, how much cash do I need in reserves for maintenance and unexpected expenses realistically? I remember reading you should have an engine account you save in each time you fly to cover the TBO...so should you have $20k? or $30k to cover annual maintenance expenses or the post-buy fix-up inspection.

I know this is a huge variable, but what are some examples of those expenses that you've seen? I don't want to start into this and run out of money, so I'm trying to be tactful on when I jump in and **** off my wife.
 
Whatever your purchase price, keep at least that much in reserve for the first 2 years.
 
scarpozzi said:
My plan was to get a plane for 250-300nm trips to a few select cities...and for time building mostly for hobby after getting my PPL. I considered flying to NFL games in the Fall and then using the plane to fly to the coast throughout the Winter months just to get away for long weekends. Commercial flight seems to work better for my family, so this would mostly be me and maybe one passenger...but possible short trips for 4 people.

I've looked at Cherokees and Arrows to keep the costs low, but also considered something like a Mooney M20F or a Cherokee 180/235 (though they're priced too high anymore)

If I buy one of those planes for $70-110k and pay in cash, how much cash do I need in reserves for maintenance and unexpected expenses realistically? I remember reading you should have an engine account you save in each time you fly to cover the TBO...so should you have $20k? or $30k to cover annual maintenance expenses or the post-buy fix-up inspection.

I know this is a huge variable, but what are some examples of those expenses that you've seen? I don't want to start into this and run out of money, so I'm trying to be tactful on when I jump in and **** off my wife.
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I've been an airplane owner for >30 years. A Tomahawk, an RV-6, and an RV-10. I've had one ~$10K unexpected expense over that time. After that, it has all been expected stuff (oil changes, filters, plugs, brakes, one cylinder repair, etc) plus upgrades (ADSB and a couple of others). Obviously, your engine *can* fail at any moment, but that's uncommon. Still it DOES happen, and at that point your options are to spend $50K to rebuild/replace it or to sell the airplane as-is, and at a substantial discount.
 
I'm a Sport Pilot with an experimental airplane. For cost savings I don't know that there can be a less expensive option available. I fly myself and now & again I'll take a passenger. You may be surprised at the amount of time the other seat(s) are empty. I can cruise ~ 120 knots, carry two moderate sized folks (190 lbs each) & a bit of baggage. As a PPL for the rare occasion you carry 4 folks renting would be an option.

Sport Pilot means no dealing with the FAA medical folks (I have no issues to prevent me from getting a class 3). I built my plane and I maintain it & do the condition inspection and/or have an A&P look it over also.

TBH I've considered a PPL and certified aircraft but for what I want Sport has met my needs. Next year when MOSAIC comes alive the benefit to being a Sport Pilot should be even better.

Just another guy on the 'net with an opinion ...
 
What is the ballpark to overhaul a IO-360?
 
rene86mx said:
What is the ballpark to overhaul a IO-360?
Click to expand...

$30-$40K + removal/re-install and the miscellaneous firewall forward. All in, our O-320 was about $40K 11 months ago and that included no labor charges as one of our partners is an A&P/IA and did/supervised the install for free.

Overhauls come in a variety of flavors from a field OH (cheapest) to Factory New engine (most expensive). The sweet spot is an airplane with 500-1200hrs since OH and flies regularly.

Purchase price (capex) isn’t the killer in ownership, operation & maintenance expenses are. A lot of that is due to the requirement to use an A&P and certified parts for a lot of the maintenance.

If you can swing near-six figures for capex and have a modicum of mechanical aptitude, find an RV-7 that flies regularly, do most of the maintenance yourself and find an A&P willing to do your condition inspections.
 
If you buy a plane with fixed gear, no rust, and a solid engine (less than 1/2 of TBO and no corrosion), chances are extremely small that you will have a large expense.
Just buy the plane and enjoy it.
 
I own a 91 Grumman Tiger, similar to a Cherokee in size and faster than a lot of Arrows. My yearly fixed costs are approximately $7.5K. That covers annual ($3K), hangar rental (in a shared hangar $2.4K), avionics database ($500) and insurance ($1.4K). Fuel, upgrades, and unexpected repairs are the major variables and I budget about $6.5K for that for a yearly total of about $14K. My annual costs tend to be on the higher end since I do not permit any kind of deferred maintenance and that does not include $500 every other year for pitot-static and IFR cert. Like many, my first annual was miserable. I ended up with a top overhaul and fixed many deferred maintenance issues from the prior owner. Plus, I foolishly added some upgrades at that time so my first annual was about $28K. So if you are going to jump into ownership, get through your first annual with an A&P that you can trust and who is anal about safety before looking at upgrades, etc.

My engine is now in the 1600 hr range although I did a complete top overhaul in my first annual so I am beginning to plan and budget for an overhaul. Avionics are starting to age but still very functional. But unless something catastrophic happens (compressions start to tank, oil consumption goes way up, my primary gps/comm craps out, or lots of metal in the filter, etc.) I should be able to go another 5-6 years before having to deal with any of that at about the same annual cost of about $12-14K.

Some may spend more, some less. But once I was passed 2 annuals and caught up on all the deferred maintenance, my annual plane costs have been pretty predictable. YMMV.
 
If I buy one of those planes for $70-110k and pay in cash, how much cash do I need in reserves for maintenance and unexpected expenses realistically?
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This an impossible question to answer accurately. Especially at this price point. You're probably looking at planes with no GPS, old King or Narco radios, maybe high times SMOH engines or one that's a low time SMOH but the OH was 14 years ago and it's been sitting for the last 5 or 6 years.

That said, you could find the unicorn and have trouble free flying for years. Or you could spend the sale price on repairs in the first year.

So I guess the answer is "Yes".
 
A really good pre buy will at least help with budgeting over normal annual costs. It’s correcting deferred maintenance that will really hit the pocket. There is safe to fly, but many of us keep things to a higher standard.
 
scarpozzi said:
My plan was to get a plane for 250-300nm trips to a few select cities...and for time building mostly for hobby after getting my PPL. I considered flying to NFL games in the Fall and then using the plane to fly to the coast throughout the Winter months just to get away for long weekends. Commercial flight seems to work better for my family, so this would mostly be me and maybe one passenger...but possible short trips for 4 people.

I've looked at Cherokees and Arrows to keep the costs low, but also considered something like a Mooney M20F or a Cherokee 180/235 (though they're priced too high anymore)

If I buy one of those planes for $70-110k and pay in cash, how much cash do I need in reserves for maintenance and unexpected expenses realistically? I remember reading you should have an engine account you save in each time you fly to cover the TBO...so should you have $20k? or $30k to cover annual maintenance expenses or the post-buy fix-up inspection.

I know this is a huge variable, but what are some examples of those expenses that you've seen? I don't want to start into this and run out of money, so I'm trying to be tactful on when I jump in and **** off my wife.
Click to expand...
I recently bought a 182. For simplicity’s sake, knowing I plan on using 125-150 hours a year, my approach is to put away $25k annually related to aviation expenses and just roll that forward each year (one time upgrades etc will be extra)

Fuel costs me $70/hour if I buy at my home airport, so I figure the balance should be enohhh to carry most expenses. If there is anything left over at the end of the year I would just roll it forward with another $25k next year.


I don’t know if $25k is too much or too little. I will tally up all my expenses at end of year 1 and find out. If it’s too much then I can use that money towards upgrades or larger maintenance expenses that will inevitably show up at some point.


I don’t want to do anything more complicated than this. I don’t want to track evry penny every time and compare it to a budget line and stress out about it. Will just see where I am all in at the end of year 1 w the $25k planned.

$25k doesn’t include cost of purchasing the airplane but includes everything else including hangar insurance annual fuel subscriptions
 
MountainDude said:
If you buy a plane with fixed gear, no rust, and a solid engine (less than 1/2 of TBO and no corrosion), chances are extremely small that you will have a large expense.
Just buy the plane and enjoy it.
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Not sure that I would judge the chances as extremely small, although I agree that those are good criteria. I think that this is an area in which failure to plan is planning to fail. Much better to have money reserved and not need it than the converse.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, in my case I bought a low-time 1966 Cherokee 180C with no training history and a mid-low time engine (850 SMOH), flown regularly, and owned by a group of engineers who meticulously tracked maintenance as only engineers can (got to love maintenance Excel sheets with hyperlinks). I had a thorough pre-buy done by a reputable shop which found no major issues and pronounced the Cherokee to be in excellent condition. I completed the purchase and happily flew it around for 9 months before taking it in for its annual, whereupon a cracked cylinder (believed due to an improperly installed exhaust) led to a cam-shaft finding that required a complete overhaul and a year of AOG.

OP, my point is that in the price-range you're looking at, you're probably going to get a fairly old aircraft, likely with tired avionics and probably some deferred maintenance. At best, you should probably plan on a painful first annual and worst-case for an unexpected engine overhaul. I probably wouldn't buy unless I could reserve $20k for unexpected expenses, and was sure that I could swing the $30-$50k for an engine overhaul if it became absolutely necessary. Maybe you'll get lucky and that reserve money can sit in a high-yield savings account while you are happily flying about. What you don't want is a really expensive paperweight because of a maintenance issue.

Agree with others on fixed cost planning. Also agree that the purchase cost of an aircraft is the cheapest part of ownership. Per hour fuel-burn, hangar costs, insurance. Once you get a sense of those costs and add a reasonably maintenance margin, you can either break it down by expected hours, or just put a lump sum into a savings account each year.
 
1.) Budget 10-20% of the purchase price in the first year or two to fix defered MX and otherwise get the bird up to spec.
2.) Insurance, hangar, average annual, and average yearly MX is ~$12k/yr before the prop turns. (Mooney 201)
3.) Now add gas and go fly.
4.) Firewall forward a few years back using a factory Lycoming overhaul (not the zero time one) came to $48k after everything up front was overhauled or replaced.
5.) Avionics upgrades cost what they cost.
 
Bill said:
1.) Budget 10-20% of the purchase price in the first year or two to fix defered MX and otherwise get the bird up to spec.
2.) Insurance, hangar, average annual, and average yearly MX is ~$12k/yr before the prop turns. (Mooney 201)
3.) Now add gas and go fly.
4.) Firewall forward a few years back using a factory Lycoming overhaul (not the zero time one) came to $48k after everything up front was overhauled or replaced.
5.) Avionics upgrades cost what they cost.
Click to expand...

For #4 did u pull your engine and sent to them for OH or can u get one from the factory and basically just engine swap?
 
Budgeting is uniquely personal exercise. Whether you need to keep money in "reserve" or need to sock cash away each flight depends entirely on your personal financial situation. Some people can cash flow most airplane issues, some can't.

IMHO, the best way to manage your expenses is to learn to do owner-assisted maintenance (and find a mechanic willing to work with you). If you're handy, or at least willing to learn to be handy, you can save a lot of money in basic troubleshooting and some minor to intermediate maintenance tasks. You should also learn to manage your own parts sourcing, at least for stuff that isn't just "ordinary."

The guys who tend to really get burned on costs are those who just drop the airplane off at the mechanic and say "call me when it's done."

But make no mistake, airplane ownership is very expensive. Even the most routine parts for a lot of airplanes can be $500-1000 to replace or overhaul. Mags are running $500-750 per to overhaul anymore, fuel pumps are routinely over $1k, most instrument overhauls are at least $500, etc. Shop labor can easily exceed $100/hr (and most mechanics aren't exact efficient with their time...) and avionics shop labor can be $150/hr or more.

Ultimately, ownership can be, in some instances, death by 1000 cuts.
 
bradg33 said:
IMHO, the best way to manage your expenses is to learn to do owner-assisted maintenance (and find a mechanic willing to work with you).
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This.
Even simple things, like removing the cowling, seats and access panels before the annual and replacing them after can save you a lot of labor hours.
Then you can tag along and learn. Next time you will get to remove, clean, gap and reinstall the plugs. If you have to replace a cylinder, you can stard by removing the baffles, intake, exhaust and so on.
The more you get involved, the more you'll learn the actual state of your plane, and that will give you time to plan for bigger maintenance items.
 
Go for it!!! if you get a good pre-buy and know of what to expect i'm sure you will be able to figure out how to make things workout for you!!!
 
Bill said:
1.) Budget 10-20% of the purchase price in the first year or two to fix defered MX and otherwise get the bird up to spec.
2.) Insurance, hangar, average annual, and average yearly MX is ~$12k/yr before the prop turns. (Mooney 201)
3.) Now add gas and go fly.
4.) Firewall forward a few years back using a factory Lycoming overhaul (not the zero time one) came to $48k after everything up front was overhauled or replaced.
5.) Avionics upgrades cost what they cost.
Click to expand...
#2. Don't discount insurance and storage, especially as a newly minted PPL. If you have zero retract, they will punish you on insurance.

I purchased an Arrow 18 months ago when I was about 70 hours TT. The plane was in the "sweet spot" a lot of people referred to here, about 350hours on a factory reman in 2019, updated avionics and very few nits from the pre-buy. Not a ton of unexpected mx (maybe $2k over the 18 months), but finding (and the cost) a hangar and insurance shocked me. I put $500/mo into an engine money market account. I paid a bit more than your budget for a relatively updated plane that had everything I need, but I still managed to purchase a new auto-pilot earlier this year. I tell myself I don't need any other upgrades, but I'm sure I will find something.
 
30 years ago I had a beautiful 900TTSN Hawk XP that I had sold because I bought my C180. The day the buyer was to arrive to take the plane the engine suffered a broken rod while in flight. The engine damage caused damage and destruction to the CS prop and governor, too. The repair bill was $50K in 1995 dollars. It’d be more now.

Airplane ownership expense can be overwhelming when you least expect it.
 
I read through the post and there is a lot of good info. But I missed this item, maybe it was there but I don't recall seeing it.

What type person are you?
A) One that likes technology and the cool things they do or
B) One that is more traditional, always had a six pack and 1 NAV/COM. Good enough.

If you answer "A" , you will spend a lot on new Avionics and instruments. You will love them, they are cool. But the life is limited on each. You may put in a $30K into the panel and not get much! Think $70K! Maybe none of it is broken, it is just not what you want to fly with. Another part ... many pilots will not fly single pilot IFR without an autopilot.

If you answer "B", you will spend not much if any on new Avionics. However, you will probably every 5 years have to rebuild at least one older instrument. Shops are harder to find as people have moved on to electronic instruments. Older avionics will fail, when they do it will be at least preferred time. IFR in solid IMC ? At best they will fail and take weeks to get repaired.

Nothing wrong with being a person who is part answer A and part answer B.

Topic 2: Airplane repair time. Seems airplane repair calendars don't match the wall calendar for most shops. 1 week often means 3 weeks. They will ship it and it will be here by the end of the week means we have not started the repair, will see. I would guess 3 weeks before it hits UPS. Fine, I will never use them again! Ooops, there is only one shop in the USA that repairs or overhauls the XYZ, you are using them. Of course I am exaggerating some, but I have many quality shops (A&P, Avionics, Repair places and Manufacturers) give me wildly inaccurate time frames in the past. I usually multiply by 3 and then I am not stressed out.
 
Bill said:
1.) Budget 10-20% of the purchase price in the first year or two to fix defered MX and otherwise get the bird up to spec.
2.) Insurance, hangar, average annual, and average yearly MX is ~$12k/yr before the prop turns. (Mooney 201)
3.) Now add gas and go fly.
4.) Firewall forward a few years back using a factory Lycoming overhaul (not the zero time one) came to $48k after everything up front was overhauled or replaced.
5.) Avionics upgrades cost what they cost.
Click to expand...
This is pretty much spot on. I own an AA-5, and it's been through a total interior refurb, engine overhaul, and various avionics upgrades over nearly 40 years. An O-320 was only about half #4 to overhaul. #5 can be very costly, but can enhance safety and dispatch reliability.

Flying places on a schedule in the winter months in the Northeast is sporty at best, even with an instrument rating. You can't outwit icing. But most light singles can be handy for 200-300 nm trips, and is much nicer than driving when you can do it. A frequent trip for me and my spouse is Central New York to Maine or DC. More adventurous, 2-3 leg trips are also feasible, but it can be a long day in one go for 600-900 nm, especially in a slower plane.
 
Here's a breakdown to help you plan:

  1. Engine Reserves: A good rule of thumb is to set aside $25-$30 per flight hour for engine reserves, depending on the engine's total replacement cost and time before overhaul (TBO). For a Lycoming or Continental engine, you’re looking at $20k-$40k for an overhaul, so having $20k set aside is a reasonable start.
  2. Annual Inspections: Budget $1,500-$3,000 for a typical annual on a Cherokee or Arrow, but it could go higher if squawks are found. First-year inspections often uncover more issues, so prepare for $5k-$8k to address deferred maintenance or surprises.
  3. Unexpected Repairs: Even with a thorough pre-buy inspection, unexpected issues can pop up—like avionics repairs ($500-$2k), new tires/brakes ($500+), or fuel system fixes. Keeping $10k-$15k in reserves for surprises is a safe bet.
  4. Ongoing Maintenance: Expect regular costs like oil changes ($100-$150 every 50 hours), AD compliance, and wear-and-tear items. For older aircraft, plan on $2k-$5k annually for these smaller but cumulative expenses.
  5. Avionics Upgrades: If the plane has older equipment, an ADS-B upgrade or other avionics work could cost $5k-$15k, depending on your needs.

​

 
Texas Bill said:
What type person are you?
A) One that likes technology and the cool things they do or
B) One that is more traditional, always had a six pack and 1 NAV/COM. Good enough.
Click to expand...
C) replace steam gauges with standalone drop-in modern replacement (AV-30, G5). Best of both worlds.
Texas Bill said:
Topic 2: Airplane repair time. Seems airplane repair calendars don't match the wall calendar for most shops. 1 week often means 3 weeks.
Click to expand...
It's the 90-90 rule of aviation. The first 90% of the job takes 90% of the time and 90% of the money. The remaining 10% of the job takes 90% of the time and 90% of the money.
 
I understand that avionics in experimental aircraft are less expensive than in certified (“less” being the operative word). Is this true even if you’re one of the ‘drop off at the shop call me when it’s done’ pilots?

Also, will the same avionics shops be willing to do work on experimentals? Even if I gained the mechanical aptitude to do minor routine maintenance, there’s no way I’d ever be able to mess with avionics.
 
DMD3. said:
I understand that avionics in experimental aircraft are less expensive than in certified (“less” being the operative word). Is this true even if you’re one of the ‘drop off at the shop call me when it’s done’ pilots?

Also, will the same avionics shops be willing to do work on experimentals? Even if I gained the mechanical aptitude to do minor routine maintenance, there’s no way I’d ever be able to mess with avionics.
Click to expand...

Depends, but the savings is much less since labor rates are involved. There’s avionics shops willing to work on EAB.
 
scarpozzi said:
My plan was to get a plane for 250-300nm trips to a few select cities...and for time building mostly for hobby after getting my PPL. I considered flying to NFL games in the Fall and then using the plane to fly to the coast throughout the Winter months just to get away for long weekends. Commercial flight seems to work better for my family, so this would mostly be me and maybe one passenger...but possible short trips for 4 people.

I've looked at Cherokees and Arrows to keep the costs low, but also considered something like a Mooney M20F or a Cherokee 180/235 (though they're priced too high anymore)

If I buy one of those planes for $70-110k and pay in cash, how much cash do I need in reserves for maintenance and unexpected expenses realistically? I remember reading you should have an engine account you save in each time you fly to cover the TBO...so should you have $20k? or $30k to cover annual maintenance expenses or the post-buy fix-up inspection.

I know this is a huge variable, but what are some examples of those expenses that you've seen? I don't want to start into this and run out of money, so I'm trying to be tactful on when I jump in and **** off my wife.
Click to expand...
It’s the luck of the draw. With a 100k airplane I would get a hangar, you’re now looking at 15k per year minimum for hangar, mx, insurance. Now add fuel approx $60/hour so another 5-10k.

Get a cheaper airplane that you park outside and you can get away with much less. Or join a flying club and save yourself the mx headaches.
 
eman1200 said:
For #4 did u pull your engine and sent to them for OH or can u get one from the factory and basically just engine swap?
Click to expand...
We swapped our core for a different engine. We decided on this avenue for two reasons:

1.) Went from A3B6D to the A3B6, meaning we ditched the Siamese mag for two separate mags
2.) Went from flat tappets to roller tappets.

These changes required a different new prop governor, it's cabling, and different fuel and oil hoses to be made up, adding some to the firewall forward price.
 
3 airplanes over 15 years, 10 years with the last one. 15 months ago, Arrow engine sheared cylinder studs in flight and all hell shook loose. Glad it happened solo. No vendors wanted to bother with IRAN (low profit margin). Quotes for overhaul (Lyco angled injected 360) ranged in the mid 30s to mid $40s, before R/R, another 10k with engine mount reconditioning. So a 50k minimum affair before they could even tell me about the condition of the case or crank. At the time it looked like more than 12mo estimated between vendors and mechanics willing to R/R. Yippee *dry heave*. Between you and I, the latter is what white knuckled me the most.

Anyhoo, that ought to give you an idea of what can happen. It won't happen to all, but it can happen to some. caveat emptor.

In my case I had the money, but did not find the proposition value-adding for a host of reasons I don't feel like relitigating. A good clip of folks around here get around it by going dutch so the numbers feel more palatable. To each their own; I sold as-is and stage right.

Good luck to you.
 
Reading the posts here I am reminded that your best cost control measures in aircraft ownership are (1) interested hands on engagement with your plane and (2) a relationship with an knowledgeable A&P IA who makes his money from other people and likes you. Honest. These will cut your costs dramatically.

I bought my current plane in 2010, with about 900 hrs total time airframe and engine since 1971. That was a pretty good start because not withstanding the potential engine issues from low utilization, it wasn’t too badly hacked up. Over the following 14 years of light duty usage I’ve fussed with it and flown it when I can, but done nothing very expensive. The hangar is the big cost. Otherwise a thousand dollars here and there for parts and a lot of caring labor by me and the plane is in much better condition than it was, all ‘dialed in’ now, from stem to stern. My Annuals nowadays run $400 with me doing most of the work, and if the 53 year old never apart O-320 needs an overall or IRAN some day, it’ll likely be done in much the same manner, in the field with the cooperation of the aforementioned A&P IA.

There is no single answer to the OP’s question. Costs can vary greatly depending on how well you choose the plane, a bit of luck and a lot of relationship factors, most of which are driven by your own time commitment, enthusiasm and engagement. If you’re a hands off kind of owner, you’ll be the one from which the A&P is making his money, and won’t find the advantageous parts sources and methods yourself. Nothing wrong with that, somebody has to pay retail, but that’s the way it works.

That’s my real world example, perhaps a bit different than the “I spent $50K in the first year and it’s never stopped” examples, but no less real.
 
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DMD3. said:
I understand that avionics in experimental aircraft are less expensive than in certified (“less” being the operative word). Is this true even if you’re one of the ‘drop off at the shop call me when it’s done’ pilots?

Also, will the same avionics shops be willing to do work on experimentals? Even if I gained the mechanical aptitude to do minor routine maintenance, there’s no way I’d ever be able to mess with avionics.
Click to expand...
If you put the same avionics in an experimental and a certified airplane, the cost will be essentially the same. Any difference will be due to the difficulty or ease of installation. In the experimental world, you can choose lower cost avionics - there are products that don't have STC's available for certified aircraft and which cost less than the semi-comparable Garmin or Dynon producuts. Also, if you want, you can substitute automotive gauges for aviation engine gauges if a round gauge panel is what you're after. The automotive products benefit from the lack of certification costs and from economies of scale.
 
Another point - depending on your risk tolerance and financial situation, note that insurance is generally not required. Most people obtain it, but if you don't have a lien on the airplane and you're not in one of the very, very few states that purport to require it, you can fly without it.
 
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