B17 crash at Dallas.

Sooooo…. Pretty probable an air boss issue.

But you have to ask what/why more than once to get to the root cause.

What happened? Fighter flew into a bomber.
Why? Loss of situation awareness.
Why did he lose it? Bad plan on the fly.
Who? Air boss.
WHY? Inexperienced?

Thence… how could he be air boss? Selected by air show organizers.

WHY?

That answer will get us closer to root cause.

Ironically I think TPS (Toyota Production Systems) says you have to ask WHY like seven times before you get the real answer….
 
Sooooo…. Pretty probable an air boss issue.

Did the airboss design the circuit? I don't know. Lots of links in this accident chain, but I believe it starts with the circuit design and the lack of altitude deconfliction.

Seems like lots of blame to go around.
 
There were several comments in the docket about the P-51 and Me-262 at Wings Over Houston on Sunday, October 30, 2022... Does anyone here have footage that might enlighten those comments?
 
Juan Browne and Scott Perdue break down the accident (NTSB docket), recently posted:
 
Juan Browne and Scott Perdue break down the accident (NTSB docket), recently posted:
Anything we didn’t already beat to death here within a few weeks of it happening?
 
This post is just me ruminating about flying and its presence over my years.

I was looking through my cloud photos and came across some photos of P-63F 43-11719 taken during the 2021 CAF show at KRBD. I had the pleasure of meeting Craig Hutain, and he took the time to educate me about the aircraft's history and its rarity. He was a very nice man, and we spoke for almost thirty minutes.

Somewhere in my photo collection I also have some shots of B-17 44-83872 Texas Raiders, taken at Ellington in 1984. It was the first of many times we crossed paths. I had my son with me, he had just turned one year old, and dad was already introducing him to aviation.

The link below gives a timeline history of the Kingcobra. The last photo in the sequence was taken by @RyanShort1, as it taxied out for its final flight. Ryan has shared his thoughts about that day, which must have been most difficult.

 
I'm local, and there have been intermittent rumblings over the last year which provided details about the lack of deconfliction planning and the air boss's qualifications. It was pretty accurate in comparison with the NTSB findings.

It's always maddening when lives are lost due to straight up incompetence. The absence of hard altitude separation and show line limits dictates for the bombers and fighters along with a lackadaisical pre-show briefing was inexcusable. Same goes for using ad hoc radio traffic as a substitute for those critical hard limits.
 
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Do you think this had anything to do with Hank leaving?
 
It's always maddening when lives are lost due to straight up incompetence. The absence of hard altitude separation and show line limits dictates for the bombers and fighters along with a lackadaisical pre-show briefing was inexcusable. Same goes for using ad hoc radio traffic as a substitute for those critical hard limits.
I don't think incompetence is the right word. There's good video of the year before and the same airboss did fine with twice as many planes. I would go to the FAA words complacency, and invulnerability, and the pressure of fewer planes to work with due to weather and trying to please the crowd with a tighter show.
 
Well, success previously (sans adversity) doesn’t mean he was qualified. Sort of a success despite rather than because of scenario.

The ability to have caught THAT would be what the ntsb is trying to guide these organizations towards.
 
I don't think incompetence is the right word. There's good video of the year before and the same airboss did fine with twice as many planes. I would go to the FAA words complacency, and invulnerability, and the pressure of fewer planes to work with due to weather and trying to please the crowd with a tighter show.
Like I said in the other thread, just because good pilots can successfully execute a bad plan doesn't make it a good plan.
 
Normalization of deviance, and unwillingness to speak up about problems. Pilots experienced the air boss causing hazards at a previous show but didn’t say anything, presumably due to the organization’s culture which might have effectively punished them.

Going along with being a good ol’ boy and not bucking the system should have been dead beyond hope of resuscitation with Bud Holland’s crash.
 
Normalization of deviance, and unwillingness to speak up about problems. Pilots experienced the air boss causing hazards at a previous show but didn’t say anything, presumably due to the organization’s culture which might have effectively punished them.

Going along with being a good ol’ boy and not bucking the system should have been dead beyond hope of resuscitation with Bud Holland’s crash.
Let's be accurate: different airboss, different show - Wings Over Houston the week before. Even if they'd spoken up, it probably wouldn't have prevented Wings Over Dallas issue.

And no, I'm not saying there wasn't a problem, but I'm not convinced the right lessons are being learned.
 
Like I said in the other thread, just because good pilots can successfully execute a bad plan doesn't make it a good plan.
Conversely, a good or even an OK plan can get messed up by a bad mistake.
 
…And no, I'm not saying there wasn't a problem, but I'm not convinced the right lessons are being learned….
That’s an organizational and participant problem. There’s a point where failure to learn is the problem and in the airshow business that’ll kill folks dead right quick and with impunity.
 
Thank you.
Should we ask the mods to merge threads? At a minimum we should put the final report in that thread.
I'll merge them now. It should flow fairly well between the old thread and this one without many interleaved posts.

You can always use the Report button on a post to bring it to the moderators' attention. Reports aren't only for Rules of Conduct violations.
 
Like I said in the other thread, just because good pilots can successfully execute a bad plan doesn't make it a good plan.
Yep. In my profession we have a saying: “We’re lucky more often than we’re good.”

We have a tendency to think that we did well simply because we had a positive outcome. Digging a bit often reveals that we succeeded in spite of mistakes rather than being mistake-free. Unfortunately, I’ve seen some of my peers ignore this, and eventually suffer a tragic, but predictable fate because repeated positive outcomes built-in mistakes and complacency.
 
That’s an organizational and participant problem. There’s a point where failure to learn is the problem and in the airshow business that’ll kill folks dead right quick and with impunity.
In this case, the organizations / participants might have learned the right lesson, but the internet mob, not. Not saying I have any special knowledge of that crowd, but the online analysis isn't stellar.
 
In this case, the organizations / participants might have learned the right lesson, but the internet mob, not. Not saying I have any special knowledge of that crowd, but the online analysis isn't stellar.

Surprised? Also, why care what uninvolved parties think because it’s highly likely nothing going to change opinions.
 
Surprised? Also, why care what uninvolved parties think because it’s highly likely nothing going to change opinions.
Not surprised, but exercising my freedom of speech to say something.
In general, if my students watch any of those videos, in my opinion they aren't coming away with as much useful information as they could.
 
Why is that fighter gaggle called a "formation"? What "formation" position was the P63 pilot holding? The whole thing was a goatrope. As was Reno.
 
They had gone to an “in trail” situation. A formation really is nothing more than, more than one plane, acting as a group.

But you bring up an interesting point. The faa requires that formations BRIEF. They had NOT briefed this situation. Granted they were being “controlled”.

These sorts of formation “maneuvers” are EXTREMELY dynamic. That’s what the top level causal factor was. My only surprise with the report is the deliberate removal of qualification by the pilots as a causal factor. I believe they were not qualified or trained for this sort of maneuvering. It puts them in the they didn’t know what they didn’t know arena.
 
These sorts of formation “maneuvers” are EXTREMELY dynamic. That’s what the top level causal factor was. My only surprise with the report is the deliberate removal of qualification by the pilots as a causal factor. I believe they were not qualified or trained for this sort of maneuvering. It puts them in the they didn’t know what they didn’t know arena.
Personally, that statement seems like complete baloney, even despite the fact that the accident happened.

First off, at every show I've been to, the individual formations or groups of pilots DO brief after the main briefing. The bomber pilots would have briefed and the fighter formation would have briefed. There was no expectation or intention that the two formations would have merged, so they wouldn't have briefed it together. I've even done that in an L-5 at Wings Over Houston. We went off into a separate location after the main briefing and discussed our speeds, positions, spacing, emergency options, etc.

Second, there was nothing about the B-17's flight path that indicates that the pilots weren't qualified, or that they weren't flying the correct line as they were told, so I think it's reasonable that should take them OUT of the equation.

That eliminates all but Craig, the P-63 pilot, and makes it seem like he is the target of your statement. Examining that, he had been a long-time Tora Tora Tora member, and even flew the Hawk in the display just before the show. He knew the flight lines, had also practiced and had the FAA approval to fly an acro routine in the Kingcobra, and had no trouble with collision avoidance during the carefully rehearsed and choreographed Tora display, and was even doing tail-chase maneuvers with the "Zero" ahead. The accident maneuver should have been spectacularly easier than the TORA show if it hadn't been for the airboss' timing issues - which you really can't blame on the last man in trail. If anything, (and I'm NOT making an accusation here) one might say that the lead fighter (who has managed to avoid much discussion, but I believe that he IS a former military pilot and IP and probably "qualified" by your standards) might be somewhat more responsible for the separation of his flight from the other flight... which is something I haven't really seen at all addressed. But they all had an expectation bias that the timing of the airboss' calls for their turns would be good like it had been every time before. That's why I think that the most obvious causal factor on the pilots' side of the accident was complacency and perhaps invulnerability.
But you bring up an interesting point. The faa requires that formations BRIEF. They had NOT briefed this situation. Granted they were being “controlled”.
I mean, if the standard for formation briefings is that you have to brief every single possible situation that could arise, then most formation flights are illegal. The FAA standard in the regs for what you brief for a formation doesn't seem to be quite that strict. All it says is:
§ 91.111 Operating near other aircraft.
(a) No person may operate an aircraft so close to another aircraft as to create a collision hazard.

(b) No person may operate an aircraft in formation flight except by arrangement with the pilot in command of each aircraft in the formation.

(c) No person may operate an aircraft, carrying passengers for hire, in formation flight.

The previous years I had been CAF Redbird Squadron OPS officer, and had been tasked with getting their Taylorcraft L-2 back in the air and I spent a reasonable amount of time over at HQ the year before the accident making sure the annual got done, getting her airworthy and had had a lot of the kind of conversations and such that happen when you are standing around the aircraft in the hangar. The folks at HQ were trying very, very hard to finish the year without an accident, and making real safety culture efforts. The atmosphere at HQ even had a bit of a sense of hopeful relief in the air after Wings Over Houston had finished. It looked like it was going to be a year without a single major CAF incident and the the expectation was that a minimal acro show with a high emphasis on simple flybys and "safe" flying (one of the things that was notable about the WoD show was that they really were making a concerted effort to keep it low-energy and avoid offending the nearby neighborhoods) would be a wrap on a perfect year. That ended up being a recipe for disaster in the simplest of mistakes, vectoring the two formations into the same space with a ridiculous amount of space available (long gaps between passes for the crowd) and fewer planes being vectored than in previous years.
 
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This sticks with me more than anything:

“The decision on how they’re gonna fly and how they’re gonna operate within the airspace one it starts is either decided in the briefing, if they are given rote altitudes and orbits, or they are decided by the air boss while those aircraft are flying, in an effort to maximize the entertainment value, because you are providing entertainment to people.”

- Air Boss

Lots of other relevant supporting statements from interviews, but this one also seemed germane to the discussion:

“According to an interview summary for the fighter lead pilot, during the performance and before the accident, he did not fully understand the string of instructions the air boss provided, and he asked him to clarify. He said that he believed that the air boss had directed the fighters to the 1,000-foot show line. He said that he put his wingmen (the positions 2 and 3 fighters) in a right echelon until the air boss instructed him to put them in trail.”

Is it possible for a formation of aircraft to pre-brief every eventuality of formation that might be thrown at you, at any time or place during the performance, by someone who are themselves not in the formation, but who are winging directives in an attempt to maximize entertainment value?
 
And yet the qualified individuals didn’t call a “knock it off”, the most basic of formation principles.

1. WHY did that VAST amount of experience not do that? SERIOUS SERIOUS systemic problems. EVERY airplane airborne (except the rides maybe) could have done that.

2. Did they really even know just how dangerous that seemingly benign change was? That’s where my suspicions of qualification exist.

These are not accusatory questions. Just ones from which we can learn something to help prevent this from happening again.

Chalking it up to a singular micro second lapse of judgement event will not provide much.
 
They had gone to an “in trail” situation. A formation really is nothing more than, more than one plane, acting as a group.

But you bring up an interesting point. The faa requires that formations BRIEF. They had NOT briefed this situation. Granted they were being “controlled”.

These sorts of formation “maneuvers” are EXTREMELY dynamic. That’s what the top level causal factor was. My only surprise with the report is the deliberate removal of qualification by the pilots as a causal factor. I believe they were not qualified or trained for this sort of maneuvering. It puts them in the they didn’t know what they didn’t know arena.
I don't think the P-63 was in trail when he hit the B-17. Might call it extended trail which would allow some more lateral displacement. Where did lead think his wingmen would be relative to him?
 
“According to an interview summary for the fighter lead pilot, during the performance and before the accident, he did not fully understand the string of instructions the air boss provided, and he asked him to clarify. He said that he believed that the air boss had directed the fighters to the 1,000-foot show line. He said that he put his wingmen (the positions 2 and 3 fighters) in a right echelon until the air boss instructed him to put them in trail.”

This is exactly why I commented about ad hoc radio traffic superseding hard show line and altitude limits. Two groups of aircraft in close proximity yet operating at significantly different speeds shouldn't be managed by the whims of someone on the ground with a radio.
 
I don't think the P-63 was in trail when he hit the B-17. Might call it extended trail which would allow some more lateral displacement. Where did lead think his wingmen would be relative to him?
For the purposes of the airshow, he still would have been considered part of the "fighters" gaggle - in extended trail - at a minimum. The fighters would have been flying "together" even when in trail and the bombers were also flying together as a group.

The airshow definitions are generally the FAST definitions, and that isn't any secret: https://www.flyfast.org/Reference.html and there's no reason to believe that they weren't in an extended trail formation.
 
This is exactly why I commented about ad hoc radio traffic superseding hard show line and altitude limits. Two groups of aircraft in close proximity yet operating at significantly different speeds shouldn't be managed by the whims of someone on the ground with a radio.
Except they really weren't supposed to be in "close proximity" which is why I think that the participating pilots agreed to the plan. Generally speaking, the spacing was always fine in previous shows. I was literally shooting next to the runway the previous year and it never looked unsafe. I remember thinking that things were off just a bit before the accident, but I couldn't put my finger on it until afterwards.
 
For the purposes of the airshow, he still would have been considered part of the "fighters" gaggle - in extended trail - at a minimum. The fighters would have been flying "together" even when in trail and the bombers were also flying together as a group.

The airshow definitions are generally the FAST definitions, and that isn't any secret: https://www.flyfast.org/Reference.html and there's no reason to believe that they weren't in an extended trail formation.
So lead put his wingman in a vulnerable position or 3 decided to not fly formation on lead? Goatrope.Why is NTSB calling that a formation yet saying the p-63 didn't see the B-17? If it was a formation 3, the P-63, should have been looking at lead and maintaining his formation position. Total goatrope but how does lead take his gaggle on that flightpath. NTSB doesn't know what a "formation" is. #5 should be Lead.
 
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