PA-28 possible buy: What do y’all think:

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ateamer

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ateamer
PA-28-180, approx. 3000 total time. Overall it’s clean, original paint and interior are in really good shape especially for being 60 years old. It’s been hangared for most of its life (almost all in the upper midwest) and in Florida for about 18 months.

The engine has about 1000 on it, and had three cylinders overhauled earlier this year due to low compression. Since then (July 2024) it’s only flown about an hour, so break-in hasn’t been done. In the last 15 years, it has a total of 127 hours, including a four-year stretch where it only accrued 13 hours. The airframe does not have obvious corrosion. There are a couple minor sheet metal repairs. The logs are complete to Day 1 - no borescopes or oil analysis at any point.

The spar corrosion AD has been complied with, with none found. It has a total of 12 100-hour inspections, in the late 60s to mid 70s.

What do you guys think of it sitting for five months with new cylinders not broken in? I’m considering moving to a prebuy next.
 
I've done several break-ins, so that wouldn't scare me, but I'd probably want to do some sort of conditional purchase option because that's always a higher risk of failure.
 
ateamer said:
PA-28-180, approx. 3000 total time. Overall it’s clean, original paint and interior are in really good shape especially for being 60 years old. It’s been hangared for most of its life (almost all in the upper midwest) and in Florida for about 18 months.

The engine has about 1000 on it, and had three cylinders overhauled earlier this year due to low compression. Since then (July 2024) it’s only flown about an hour, so break-in hasn’t been done. In the last 15 years, it has a total of 127 hours, including a four-year stretch where it only accrued 13 hours. The airframe does not have obvious corrosion. There are a couple minor sheet metal repairs. The logs are complete to Day 1 - no borescopes or oil analysis at any point.

The spar corrosion AD has been complied with, with none found. It has a total of 12 100-hour inspections, in the late 60s to mid 70s.

What do you guys think of it sitting for five months with new cylinders not broken in? I’m considering moving to a prebuy next.
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Your situation is quite similar to mine when I bought.

1972 PA28R-200, ~3000 TTAF. Between 2003 and 2020 it only flew 250h (and during that time there were years it only went up for a few hours). Last OH was in 1993. Had 4 100h inspections, all back in the 70s.

We pulled a cylinder during the first annual a few weeks after I bought it and found a bit more work to do, which cost a few AMUs, but not a huge deal. My mechanics advice was "the best thing you can do for this plane is to fly it". So I did and compressions improved along with oil analyses readouts. ~700 hobbs hours later the engine is still chugging and have never had an issue.

You'll learn more during the prebuy (which I would proceed with if you're happy w/the price).
 
ateamer said:
Since then (July 2024) it’s only flown about an hour, so break-in hasn’t been done
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That really bugs me, why go through all the effort and expense and then potentially throw it down the drain like that? Makes you wonder what else has been ignored and mistreated?
Borescope the cylinders and depending on the condition make an offer that assumes you'll need to remove/rehone/replace those cylinders.
 
ateamer said:
What do you guys think of it sitting for five months with new cylinders not broken in?
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Fresh cylinders tend to rust more before they are broke in. Since its been 5 months, may want to address that in some way.
 
Having bought one plane that sat for four years. Run Away
Now seeing Midwest and Hanger maybe.
 
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Bell206 said:
Fresh cylinders tend to rust more before they are broke in. Since its been 5 months, may want to address that in some way.
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I heard the same from the guy who built my engine. He had built others for different customers, and said they would test run them, then stick them in the corner for several months while they finished building, or whatever they had to do. Reportedly some were completely rusted/locked up at that point, and they would call him all frantic.
He said once you put some time on those bare metal parts they get 'shellacked'... that was the word he used to describe it, but I knew what he meant.
Good advice to check it out closely.
 
The lack of engine use is a concern. Borescope, compression test, and an oil leak test (run engine, idle, stick bore scope back in and see if you get oil pooling), etc.

Oil analysis is a must.
 
With where I'm at in my potential airplane purchase journey that has been going on for the last 18 months or so -- I wouldn't buy an airplane that sat that long, period. Just my personal opinion there that the likely/potential downsides outweigh the discount upfront. I don't think there's anything wrong with considering it though, just as mentioned above get as much info as possible about the health of the engine and even still consider that you may need a full overhaul in the next x00 hours.

If I was in a different place training-wise, with more free time and financial flexibility I would be much more likely to consider a plane that sat a long time, but I'd still go into it expecting to need to overhaul the engine pretty quickly after buying it. And from what I've found sellers very very rarely will discount the plane enough upfront to account for that possibility from the plane sitting. They will wait to find a buyer who sees 1000 hours and is comfortable with it on the surface, because in this market those buyers absolutely exist.

In this particular case too, as mentioned a few times above, I'd be questioning how much of an "overhaul" was actually performed on those cylinders -- definitely take a real good look at those logs to see what work was actually performed. I'm no expert at all but I like this thread as a start:

www.pilotsofamerica.com

Top Overhaul vs. Full Overhaul

I was pursuing some aviation related porn and saw a plane with an engine with about 2300 hours, with a Top Overhaul with about 320 hours. What are the ramifications of not doing a full overhaul around 2000 hours? Is a top OH vs. full OH on an IRAN basis?
www.pilotsofamerica.com www.pilotsofamerica.com

Also, I feel like I'm forgetting a better idiom here but the overhauling of those 3 cylinders could be a case of the owner "putting lipstick on a pig" before selling to increase chances of a sale while screwing the buyer. Not necessarily, but I would be cautious about that being a possibility.
 
Hire someone (me?) to fly the airplane for 50 hours, send the oil and filter for analysis. Then continue with pre-buy.

What was the date of the last overhaul?

What’s the price and what avionics are included?

What are the dates of the costly fixes (are they upgraded)? Fuel servo, alternator, prop, starter, mags, vacuum pump?

Low time is good, but you could have a 50k overhaul awaiting and more if all original equipment.
 
Spending more for a somewhat "more flown plane" that has been given honest maintenance saves a bit of money.

For context, I just bought a plane with less "sitting" that what you described late spring this year. It was in better shape and flew a bit more than what you described. I knew it would need somethings from the pre buy, and things that would be "unexpected". I just expected the unexpected. So far, overhauled 2 cylinders, replaced another one outright. Add to the list a blocked fuel vent, hardened fuel cap gaskets, flap limit switches, old (and weak) battery. Oh, and an ancient transponder encoder that they don't even make any more that needed to be replaced. I'm starting to slow down on the things to fix, so I'm thinking I'm reaching a better ratio of flying time to "fixing time".

Lots of other things that don't like sitting that I haven't run into, but put you should put on the list. Tires that have aged out, old hydraulic fluid that might have corrosion in brake system, old engine vent tubing, corroded control wires (you have to pull headliner to check), old and broken/leaking air vent hosing, control pulleys not lubricated, engine mounts, exhaust manifold, ...............

The first plane you get to the pre buy stage might be a good plane for you. But maybe not. My first plane I paid a pre buy for, I walked. It was at a great price BTW; and even with that great price is would have cost a fortune.

I paid more for my plane I eventually bought because it was in better condition than others, knowing I was still going to have to fix unexpected things.
 
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Were the cylinders actually overhauled or just valves and seats?

Edit: found it. Says new cylinders.
 
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Lots of conflicting advice here, but the bottom line is if you make an offer on this plane, add an allowance for a possible early overhaul. You might get lucky (like ArrowFlyer) or you might not (like T Bird or BoneFishPete). You pays your money and you takes your chances.

We'd all like to consider purchasing a plane with a history of recent usage, but as a practical matter if someone is using their plane a lot, they probably aren't interested in selling it. So a big percentage of planes for sale out there have been sitting for a long time. Of course the owner will tell you it was in perfect condition and ran like a top the last time they flew it (in 2019) so it must be in the same condition today, right? You get to convince them it doesn't work that way and few will want to hear it.

C.
 
Racerx said:
Were the cylinders actually overhauled or just valves and seats?
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Good question. New pistons and rings in non hauled cylinders means you just get re do it all over again.
 
OP says "overhauled" cylinders. So a plane that flew an average of 8 hr/year for a decade and a half needs to be sold. 3/4 cylinders are kaput, so they put on overhauled ones. Now the compressions are up, so they put it back in the corner waiting for a buyer.

If they had all the cylinders off, verified the cam and lifters were good, and then put on four new new cylinders, and broke the engine in for 20 hours, maybe.

None of that seems to have occurred, so if you have a seriously good price (that accounts for premature engine replacement) maybe. Otherwise, not so much.
 
Thanks for the input. I am going to pass on it. The price is attractive, but I am believing that it’s a higher than lower chance of needing major engine work. The purchase price plus the cost of an overhaul are within my budget, but the downtime and hassle are not.

The search continues.
 
Good choice ,sometimes a low price looks good from afar.
 
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