Brokers

Skymac

Skymac

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Nov 9, 2015
Messages
343
Location
Kentucky
Display Name
Display name:
Justin
So tired of dealing with Brokers, especially on light singles and twins under say $250k. What a waste. Call on an airplane, they generally don’t know anything about it, never seen it, blah blah….

Why can’t people better our industry and sell their own planes or quit using brokers that are terrible. I’ve spoken with a couple long standing operations this week and it’s like pulling teeth.

Rant over…
 
Why not get a buyer’s agent or, better yet join the type club and become active in it. WOM will provide opportunities that are never advertised or brokered.
 
Skymac said:
So tired of dealing with Brokers, especially on light singles and twins under say $250k. What a waste. Call on an airplane, they generally don’t know anything about it, never seen it, blah blah….

Why can’t people better our industry and sell their own planes or quit using brokers that are terrible. I’ve spoken with a couple long standing operations this week and it’s like pulling teeth.

Rant over…
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Understand the frustration...
I'll likely use a broker to sell, though. Not interested in picking up every random phone call just to find out if they're semi-serious people.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
Understand the frustration...
I'll likely use a broker to sell, though. Not interested in picking up every random phone call just to find out if they're semi-serious people.
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I'd rather do that than let serious sellers move on to a different airplane because the broker doesn't know the item they are selling.

A good ad should cut down a lot a phone calls. I'd imagine you can tell if you have a serious buyer in the first two minutes. It likely take less time to deal with a few semi-serious people than it does to retain a broker and communicate with them.
 
Just to confirm, these are the brokers of these planes? If so, that’s pathetic service for those sellers.
 
Try selling a plane - and then you'll realize the necessity of having a broker. The amount of tire kickers wasting your time is really absurd (depends on the plane obviously). The group of pilots that come out is truly amazing. They believe a) since you arent using a broker, that they can take 10% off the bat. b) they are going to proceed to tell you what your plane is worth (usually its a good chunk below market) and c) they will nitpick everything under the sun. And frequently they want you or them to test fly the plane. I pretty much let brokers deal with all of those now - and as for the test flights - thats usually after some deposit is put down (fully refundable) but at least you know they are serious.

And then people say they will drive 4 hours to see the plane at so and so time, and show up 3 hours late and call you asking where are you ? Its a lot dealing with pilots trying to buy planes. And many of the ones that refuse to deal with a broker - well they are frequently the bottom feeders (not always, but many are).
 
I bought my last plane from a broker. He knew the plane better than the owner himself, and was incredibly helpful in the whole process.
 
I found a broker helped to keep the conversations going when buying and definitely helped with the repairs needed discovered during the prebuy.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
I bought my last plane from a broker. He knew the plane better than the owner himself, and was incredibly helpful in the whole process.
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Having worked with a number of brokers, this^ is typically what I’ve seen and experienced. However, just as there are good/bad pilots and mechanics it’s the same for brokers. And usually when a seller selects a broker to sell their aircraft it can have more to do with aircraft condition and costs than the "quality" of the broker.

My recommendations have always been to select a good broker first, then they will find the aircraft you are looking for vs the reverse of finding the aircraft 1st then having to deal with the broker the seller picked.
 
mandm said:
I found a broker helped to keep the conversations going when buying and definitely helped with the repairs needed discovered during the prebuy.
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It has been almost 20 years since we bought our Scout from a broker. I thought they were reasonable, they provided images of the Logs, Let us have a local IA we knew come inspect the airplane for us. But they made it clear there was no negotiating on the airplane. It is what it is and the price is what is, buy it if you like it, move on if you don't was the message they gave us.

Brian
 
I bought mine from a broker. But he was type specific and easy to work with.
 
I thought about becoming a broker, but what I really need is for more brokers to hire me to take photos!

I've never purchased from a broker, but the right broker knows how to get good photos and stop a lot of the BS calls.
 
Lowflynjack said:
I thought about becoming a broker, but what I really need is for more brokers to hire me to take photos!

I've never purchased from a broker, but the right broker knows how to get good photos and stop a lot of the BS calls.
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You mean they don’t have just two photos - one of of an unwashed plane and the other of a panel criss-crossed with headset and GPS cables, taken through a potato phone inside a closed, unlit hangar?
 
ateamer said:
You mean they don’t have just two photos - one of of an unwashed plane and the other of a panel criss-crossed with headset and GPS cables, taken through a potato phone inside a closed, unlit hangar?
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LOL, exactly! I know when I'm looking at Barnstormers, if they don't have photos, or a price, I'm moving on.
 
I was relatively happy with the broker when I bought my plane. He handled talking to the owner (and convincing him to accept my terms). He also booked up the various things that needed be done including setting up escrow. I didn't actually meet the seller through any part of this.

About five years later I was at Oshkosh and a friend showed up in his rangemaster and I went to greet him. He had to hurry off to the gray box so I was standing at his plane waiting for him to return. This little old man totters up to me and asks, "Is this your airplane?" I told him it belonged to a friend, but I owned a Navion, too. He starts in on how he used to have a Navion but he had to sell it a few years back. Then he pulls a picture out of his wallet. Yep, N5327K. You must be "Harry D----," I say. He says, "Yeah!" I tell him I was the one who bought his plane.
 
The loss of casual sale exemption keeps me away from brokers. Sucks for the seller, would have been more than happy to offer list. These things aren't that unique to justify the excise tax.
 
A good broker will usually have the answers to questions about the airplane,they also do the research to insure the plane is what your looking for.
 
Anyone can become an airplane or a yacht broker as I don't believe there is any licensing involved... hells bells, who here remembers Baron Thomas and Bob Cullen...
 
hindsight2020 said:
The loss of casual sale exemption keeps me away from brokers. Sucks for the seller, would have been more than happy to offer list. These things aren't that unique to justify the excise tax.
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That's only an issue if you're someplace where "casual sale" means anything. I owed the use tax whether I bought it from the broker or not. The revenooers here mine the FAA database looking for new registrations.
 
flyingron said:
That's only an issue if you're someplace where "casual sale" means anything. I owed the use tax whether I bought it from the broker or not. The revenooers here mine the FAA database looking for new registrations.
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It Texas it means a lot. Casual sale is exempt from sales tax; brokered sale isn’t.
 
Jimmy Garrison - Mooney
Neal Schwartz - Beechcraft
Gary Black (Aerista) - Cirrus
I have personally worked with each of them.
Cessna/Piper/Others - you're on your own
 
KLRDMD said:
Jimmy Garrison - Mooney
Neal Schwartz - Beechcraft
Gary Black (Aerista) - Cirrus
I have personally worked with each of them.
Cessna/Piper/Others - you're on your own
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Don Maxwell’s taken over Jimmy’s modern (J+) Mooney business, I think. Jimmy’s hangar at Kestrel has been leased to Charlie Black Aviation for a year or so now.

Jimmy’s still brokering though and I wouldn’t hesitate to have him find a Mooney for me.
 
TCABM said:
Don Maxwell’s taken over Jimmy’s modern (J+) Mooney business, I think. Jimmy’s hangar at Kestrel has been leased to Charlie Black Aviation for a year or so now.

Jimmy’s still brokering though and I wouldn’t hesitate to have him find a Mooney for me.
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Just the opposite, sort of. Paul Maxwell, Don's son does pre-201s and Jimmy does 201 and newer models.
 
KLRDMD said:
Just the opposite, sort of. Paul Maxwell, Don's son does pre-201s and Jimmy does 201 and newer models.
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Thanks. Couldn’t remember the exact deal that went down there, it’s been a couple years now.

GMax Aviation is the modern side of the house, correct?
 
TCABM said:
Thanks. Couldn’t remember the exact deal that went down there, it’s been a couple years now.

GMax Aviation is the modern side of the house, correct?
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GMax is the combined name of the company. Split between Jimmy and Paul.
 
I went out and got my own "dealer's licesnse" from the FAA as a direct result of the experience I have had with a couple of brokers when looking to buy a plane.

For the most part, anybody can hang a digital shingle and become a "broker."

I tend to chuckle at the listings too. I have never come across a broker's add that was not "proud to bring to market" or "excited to present" XYZ aircraft. That goes right there with "elevate your experience..."

Over the past couple of years I have helped several folks buy and sell their airplanes and have only asked for lunch. The process is not hard and far too many people are afraid to sell things themselves because they "don't know what they don't know."

A good title search with AIC (and escrow if you choose to do that) along with the new digital process with the FAA and it's money saved all the way around.
 
With the caveats that I live in a fairly rural county (Wiki says 32 people per square mile) and am only concerned with classic two seat aircraft 100% of the sales that I am aware of have been current-owner-to-new-owner. I also know of some aircraft that are "possibly" and "conditionally" for sale. But I'd guess half if not more of the real estate transactions around here are handled the same way.
 
TCABM said:
Don Maxwell’s taken over Jimmy’s modern (J+) Mooney business, I think. Jimmy’s hangar at Kestrel has been leased to Charlie Black Aviation for a year or so now.

Jimmy’s still brokering though and I wouldn’t hesitate to have him find a Mooney for me.
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Jimmy and Don are together in GMax.
 
TCABM said:
It Texas it means a lot. Casual sale is exempt from sales tax; brokered sale isn’t.
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A broker is a middleman, a facilitator. If you're buying from the registered owner, and he/she signs the form that it's a casual sale, it's a casual sale, broker notwithstanding.
 
DoubleD said:
A broker is a middleman, a facilitator. If you're buying from the registered owner, and he/she signs the form that it's a casual sale, it's a casual sale, broker notwithstanding.
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Every state addresses sales tax in their own manner.
 
As someone who owns an aviation business, I find many “brokers” unscrupulous.

A number come ouway to have their airplanes painted /serviced/ upgraded/ modernized as we give them a break/ but often they’ve not seen or touched the airplane they’re selling. We end up uncovering many an issue during the paint or avionics process.

Life is a little better on the airplanes we purchase to sell / refurbish ourselves since we know exactly what is up with them as we get them ready for sale.
 
Lowflynjack said:
LOL, exactly! I know when I'm looking at Barnstormers, if they don't have photos, or a price, I'm moving on.
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Why do people think that works? But I believe I called on one like that (off Barnstormers) and the broker literally sold me another one. Guess he knew what I was looking for from that phone call. Then he got photos to me and I agreed to move forward. The broker helped take a lot of emotion out of the negotiations which I think is critical to keep any transaction moving forward. Anytime an agent or broker projects the emotions of one side, the deal can fall apart quickly. I’ve experienced this recently in real estate and it isn’t fun.
 
Pinecone said:
Jimmy Garrison at G-Max for Mooneys.
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I’m doing an avionics upgrade on mine now but I may want to get something faster in a few years time. The faster Mooneys do check a lot of the boxes.
 
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