Woman Backs Into Propeller, Kansas, fatal, 10/27

I saw the result of a ground pounder's contact with a spinning P3 prop at night when I was in the Navy. That was enough to make me forever prop-phobic. No one ever enters or exits my aircraft when the prop is moving. I am still stressed out from when I did the first engine start and run after an engine change with my A&P/IA outside, inspecting (from a distance) while the engine was running. My hand was on the Mixture lever ready to pull the whole time, and my eyes were on him instead of the engine instruments.
 
NavAir said:
I saw the result of a ground pounder's contact with a spinning P3 prop at night when I was in the Navy. That was enough to make me forever prop-phobic. No one ever enters or exits my aircraft when the prop is moving. I am still stressed out from when I did the first engine start and run after an engine change with my A&P/IA outside, inspecting (from a distance) while the engine was running. My hand was on the Mixture lever ready to pull the whole time, and my eyes were on him instead of the engine instruments.
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This is the reason no one is allowed on the ramp without an escort during Young Eagle rallys.
 
Unfortunately, the human mind can get distracted too easily. They’ve been trying to prevent helicopter rotor/human contacts for 50+ years. But only with limited success. It really doesn’t matter what preventative measures you take, short of shutting down the aircraft, there will always be that one or two that gets tagged and regardless of their personal background.
 
murphey said:
This is the reason no one is allowed on the ramp without an escort during Young Eagle rallys.
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Which is why I quit doing young eagles, years ago. We had a (In my judgmeent) intoxicated Dad charge the line and he got through the ground marshals. No injuries but it wasn't pretty.
 
idahoflier said:
I try to never say never, but I have yet have people milling around my aircraft with the prop turning...
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That happened to me for the first time on Sunday. Someone knocked on my window... :eek2:
 
bbchien said:
Which is why I quit doing young eagles, years ago. We had a (In my judgment) intoxicated Dad charge the line and he got through the ground marshals. No injuries but it wasn't pretty.
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Good point. Haven't see that, so far, in my limited YE experience - but definitely a risk that must be carefully controlled. Illustrates the importance of the ground crew at YE events, and the importance of actually visually clearing the area before starting.
 
bbchien said:
Which is why I quit doing young eagles, years ago. We had a (In my judgmeent) intoxicated Dad charge the line and he got through the ground marshals. No injuries but it wasn't pretty.
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Only one time for me running a YE rally - Dad was POd that his kid had to wait. Dad was huge. Fortunately, 2 of our ground crew were just as huge and one was standing behind me when I explained we had over 25 kids, only 6 airplanes and if he continued being difficult, he and his son could leave because his son would be off the list.

Dad got real quiet.
 
Assigning blame is not the same as understand causality. I absolutely support a disciplined inquiry to understanding the accident chain and putting in place measures that will prevent further similar tragedies.

Beginning that process with "who is to blame?" both limits your ability to successfully do that and it announces that you are looking for heads to put on a spike which encourages people to participate in as minimalist and as defensive a manner possible.
 
The closest I came to a human prop strike also involved a camera. I was going to demo a high wing TW plane that had no elec system. I told the people around, maybe 5 or 6 to stay behind the wing at all times. I got the engine prop started and sure enough, a woman walked in front of the wing to take a pic of the plane with the engine running. I grabbed her arm quite forcefully and pulled her back around the wing tip, and said 'you cannot go in front of the wing ever'. Even a wood prop at 1000rpm will likely kill someone.

She apologized and asked how to take a pic of the front of the plane with the engine on(she was a wife of the buyer). I told her to stand right here and do not move at all. Just get the camera ready. I hopped in, spun it around on the ramp away from the people, then aimed it about 30deg off center for her and gave a thumbs up. She took a few pics and I taxied out and flew around the pattern a few times.

Phones seem like a way to kill people in all kinds of new and fascinating ways. A guy fell off a cliff taking a selfie just last week and died from blunt force.
 
dbahn said:
...(I still cringe whenever I hear "clear" and immediately hear the engine start up, so I always allow at least five or more seconds between the clearing announcement and engine start up.)
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Totally agree. As a student that bothers me as well seeing instant "clear"+engine starts from long time pilots. After one of my flying lessons a CFI (not mine) asked me why I always "wait so long" (5 secs) to fire up the engine after yelling "clear". Considering there were always several people in the vicinity, I asked him how long he thought it might take someone who wandered into the way, out of my line of sight, to realize they're now in the way and then react to my alert? (crickets)
 
BMan said:
Totally agree. As a student that bothers me as well seeing instant "clear"+engine starts from long time pilots. After one of my flying lessons a CFI (not mine) asked me why I always "wait so long" (5 secs) to fire up the engine after yelling "clear". Considering there were always several people in the vicinity, I asked him how long he thought it might take someone who wandered into the way, out of my line of sight, to realize they're now in the way and then react to my alert? (crickets)
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Many pilots turn on the strobes before engine start to alert those around them that the pilot is aboard and the plane wil be cranking soon.

As it takes a few seconds to close, secure, and lock the canopy on my plane there is time between loudly shouting "clear" and the engine start. Even when I'm at the airport and no one else is around I still shout "clear" ... to keep in the habit, but mostly in case there is someone there and I didn't see them.
 
Also... not "clear!", but "clear prop!!" in a very loud voice. Then look around, confirm clear and crank.
 
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AV8R_87 said:
Also... not "clear!", but "clear prop!!" in a very loud voice. Then look around, confirm clear and crank.
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I was taught to do it twice. "Clear Prop!" just before priming, look around, prime, one more 'Clear Prop!", look around, then crank.
 
This is awful. It's easy to happen though on a busy ramp with multiple engines running. It's hard to be aware of which planes are running and which aren't since they can all be standing still.
 
AV8R_87 said:
Also... not "clear!", but "clear prop!!" in a very loud voice. Then look around, confirm clear and crank.
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In actuality many people that are not familar with airplanes and their parts may not know what the term "clear prop" means or understand that it is an instruction to them for their safety. We had a Young Eagles event last Saturday and even though safety was stressed multiple times there was still a child that had to be warned against touching and turning a propeller as they attempted to do so. :eek:

I tend to believe that the eyes of the pilot are the needed safety item before starting a plane. One should never attempt to start the engine unless they are absolutely certain the area is clear.
 
Has anyone actually had a person on the ramp that you didn’t see before starting the engine, actually move out of harms way because you yelled “clear prop”? This always felt like a pointless exercise to me in simple single engine airplanes where you have a wide open and unobstructed view of the prop just a few feet in front of you. I get it in twins or pusher airplanes where you may not be able to see the prop and its surroundings before starting but not in your typical Cessna or piper single. Every single incident of someone being injured by a prop that I have read about has been either someone walking into it after it’s already been running for a while, someone touching a prop with a hot mag, or someone trying to hand prop an engine. Yelling clear prop would not have prevented any of them.
 
kmacht said:
Has anyone actually had a person on the ramp that you didn’t see before starting the engine, actually move out of harms way because you yelled “clear prop”? This always felt like a pointless exercise to me in simple single engine airplanes where you have a wide open and unobstructed view of the prop just a few feet in front of you. I get it in twins or pusher airplanes where you may not be able to see the prop and its surroundings before starting but not in your typical Cessna or piper single. Every single incident of someone being injured by a prop that I have read about has been either someone walking into it after it’s already been running for a while, someone touching a prop with a hot mag, or someone trying to hand prop an engine. Yelling clear prop would not have prevented any of them.
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if you didn't see them, how do you know they moved out of harms way?
 
kmacht said:
Has anyone actually had a person on the ramp that you didn’t see before starting the engine, actually move out of harms way because you yelled “clear prop”? This always felt like a pointless exercise to me in simple single engine airplanes where you have a wide open and unobstructed view of the prop just a few feet in front of you. I get it in twins or pusher airplanes where you may not be able to see the prop and its surroundings before starting but not in your typical Cessna or piper single. Every single incident of someone being injured by a prop that I have read about has been either someone walking into it after it’s already been running for a while, someone touching a prop with a hot mag, or someone trying to hand prop an engine. Yelling clear prop would not have prevented any of them.
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I mostly share your skepticism, but I have to point out that the fact that "every single incident" involved something other than yelling "clear" can also be used as evidence that yelling "clear" is very effective and has totally eliminated that form of accident.

Anyway, like I said, I share your skepticism, but do still believe that even if the yelling itself doesn't do much, it's part of the ritual of startup and serves as a reminder to the pilot to check surroundings. I personally have gotten to this step and aborted the process due to people wandering aimlessly, dogs being in the area, kids needing to be moved. Likely nothing would have happened, but it's a fact that me not engaging the starter after yelling and looking meant that hurting someone was impossible.
 
kmacht said:
Has anyone actually had a person on the ramp that you didn’t see before starting the engine, actually move out of harms way because you yelled “clear prop”? This always felt like a pointless exercise to me in simple single engine airplanes where you have a wide open and unobstructed view of the prop just a few feet in front of you. I get it in twins or pusher airplanes where you may not be able to see the prop and its surroundings before starting but not in your typical Cessna or piper single. Every single incident of someone being injured by a prop that I have read about has been either someone walking into it after it’s already been running for a while, someone touching a prop with a hot mag, or someone trying to hand prop an engine. Yelling clear prop would not have prevented any of them.
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Yes. I was messing with my parachute straps, and did my clear with the window cracked open on the left. Then looked down to the panel to hit the button. There was a woman walking toward the plane from the right, and I saw her as I looked up and she quickly stopped, and backed up. Mostly my fault for not looking around as well as I should have. I stopped cranking it, and waved her by to the FBO. Then, started over more observant.
 
kmacht said:
Has anyone actually had a person on the ramp that you didn’t see before starting the engine, actually move out of harms way because you yelled “clear prop”?
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No, but I got people’s attention by yelling clear prop and was able to then get them out of the way.
 
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kmacht said:
Has anyone actually had a person on the ramp that you didn’t see before starting the engine, actually move out of harms way because you yelled “clear prop”? This always felt like a pointless exercise to me in simple single engine airplanes where you have a wide open and unobstructed view of the prop just a few feet in front of you. I get it in twins or pusher airplanes where you may not be able to see the prop and its surroundings before starting but not in your typical Cessna or piper single. Every single incident of someone being injured by a prop that I have read about has been either someone walking into it after it’s already been running for a while, someone touching a prop with a hot mag, or someone trying to hand prop an engine. Yelling clear prop would not have prevented any of them.
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Letting people know you're about to start your engine is not pointless.
 
Just to clarify, I have no issue with those that do it. I do it myself if there is anyone else on the ramp within earshot. For me, its more out of courtesy to keep from startling someone than to keep them away from the prop. I am just questioning it's effectivity. I would disagree that not having alot of people walking into props is evidence that it works. Negative results by themselves do not prove correlation.
 
kmacht said:
I do it myself if there is anyone else on the ramp within earshot.
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I do it even if it's 3am and the only other creatures around are jackrabbits. Just like I use my blinkers every single time. Because it's easier than worrying about whether or not someone's out there who might benefit. If there's no one to hear, then there's no harm yelling your fool head off. And if there is someone who can hear, then there's potentially someone who could benefit from being alerted, even if it's for no other benefit than becoming aware they're about to get blasted by propwash.
 
Daleandee said:
In actuality many people that are not familar with airplanes and their parts may not know what the term "clear prop" means or understand that it is an instruction to them for their safety.
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It is our job to make sure they're not left unattended on an active ramp or any other area where an aircraft engine might be running.
 
It's a really sad story. There are a lot of fields where there's not much margin for error for some accidents. Easy to take those for granted.

I'm not suggesting any rule change here...but maybe for some airports, some times, a procedural change. I've worked as a consultant in a couple of places, mining and industrial specifically, where a visitor that hasn't been through their local safety training has to have a local escort with them on site, even if they already worked in that field at a different location. The escort was just there to keep them out of trouble. It's easy for a professional working in one field and focused on a task - photography, electrical work, etc - to not notice something like a giant dump truck bearing down on them. It's normal for people good at something to learn to "tune out" distractions, even at the expense of their own safety.
 
In the original incident being discussed, I got the impression that she was taking candid photos of the activity, not posed shots, for a news story. She also seemed to be participant in the activity so should have known better, though whether she was an experienced jumper or a first timer isn't clear.

I personally witnessed one prop strike, at a paramotor event I was one of the organizers of. In this case it was the [inexperienced] pilot himself, who let the machine get away from him while running up the engine. Even a 48" prop on a 15HP engine can do a lot of damage! It was gruesome, LOTS of blood, but he survived without serious injury... in part because my daughter, who was an EMT, was on the scene when it happened and got him stabilized until the ambulance arrived.

I too yell "clear prop!" and pause for a moment to listen for anybody to reply before pushing the start button. And when I hear it from somebody else I make sure I'm not in line with the prop disk, you don't have to be close to a prop to get injured if it flings a stone or sheds a blade.
 
Albany Tom said:
I'm not suggesting any rule change here...but maybe for some airports, some times, a procedural change
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Any pilots from the UK here? At GA fields there I have noticed everyone is required to wear hi-viz vests, to the point they are not even allowed to disembark until someone walks up to the plane and hands them out.
 
In the UK, on a "towered" grass field, you had to request permission to start your engine. Not the way I want things to go.
 
Yeah, I wasn't proposing any sort of rule change specifically for two reasons. One, this type of accident is fortunately very rare, and two, because this was a relatively unusual circumstance. Most people around airports are either pilots/crew or passengers, and every place I've ever flown has some sort of way to keep passengers safe. This was unusual, to me, because it was a professional photographer with aircraft experience working at the airport. To me that's similar to a tradesman working at an industrial site, where I've seen some places assign an escort. Not because of any regulation, but just because they're working out of their element.
 
Albany Tom said:
Yeah, I wasn't proposing any sort of rule change specifically for two reasons. One, this type of accident is fortunately very rare, and two, because this was a relatively unusual circumstance. Most people around airports are either pilots/crew or passengers, and every place I've ever flown has some sort of way to keep passengers safe. This was unusual, to me, because it was a professional photographer with aircraft experience working at the airport. To me that's similar to a tradesman working at an industrial site, where I've seen some places assign an escort. Not because of any regulation, but just because they're working out of their element.
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Even snipers travel with a buddy.
 
kmacht said:
Has anyone actually had a person on the ramp that you didn’t see before starting the engine, actually move out of harms way because you yelled “clear prop”? This always felt like a pointless exercise to me in simple single engine airplanes where you have a wide open and unobstructed view of the prop just a few feet in front of you. I get it in twins or pusher airplanes where you may not be able to see the prop and its surroundings before starting but not in your typical Cessna or piper single. Every single incident of someone being injured by a prop that I have read about has been either someone walking into it after it’s already been running for a while, someone touching a prop with a hot mag, or someone trying to hand prop an engine. Yelling clear prop would not have prevented any of them.
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Yes, the 5 year old hugging the prop of a P-51 at Oshkosh. 6-8 people yelling NO when the pilot yelled "clear". If the pilot had engaged the starter that child would be dead. The CFI that chewed me out for not waiting, looking and listening asked me if I thought I could see a loose dog or child in front of a Cessna 150. What about someone bent over looking at your exhaust or front tire. Please take 5-10 seconds longer and verify the area is clear. Watch for another person on the ramp signaling that your prop is clear. Another thing, if you're outside an airplane that's being started and the pilot yells clear, please visually let him/her know the area is clear. And just to be clear, I have beat myself up over that Oshkosh start for 20 years. Multiple pilots and spectators, including me, stood there fully aware of the 5 year old and said nothing until the pilot yelled clear. We all should have proactive and informed the pilot and the child's parent before it got to the clearing stage. Sorry for the rant...
 
kmacht said:
Has anyone actually had a person on the ramp that you didn’t see before starting the engine, actually move out of harms way because you yelled “clear prop”? This always felt like a pointless exercise to me in simple single engine airplanes where you have a wide open and unobstructed view of the prop just a few feet in front of you.
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You what???

I have never been able to see the bottom/right parts of the prop arc in any single. There's an engine and cowling in the way.

In a twin, meanwhile, you can look out the side window and see pretty much the whole thing on most types.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
You what???

I have never been able to see the bottom/right parts of the prop arc in any single. There's an engine and cowling in the way.

In a twin, meanwhile, you can look out the side window and see pretty much the whole thing on most types.
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Well on my sonex I can see the whole prop. I need to lean a little bit but it’s doable. I generally start the engine very soon after entering the aircraft so unless someone comes running across the ramp and hides underneath my cowel as I’m climbing not the cockpit, yelling clear prop isn’t going to prevent any safety related issues.

If people really think it’s an issue then why have no manufacturers put warning sirens or alarms that go off outside the airplane right before you go to start it? That to me would be more useful than hoping someone hears you yell clear prop from inside the cockpit.
 
kmacht said:
If people really think it’s an issue then why have no manufacturers put warning sirens or alarms that go off outside the airplane right before you go to start it? That to me would be more useful than hoping someone hears you yell clear prop from inside the cockpit.
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On my plane, I'd put on the rotating beacon before starting.

But oblivious people are going to be oblivious. And people make mistakes
 
Iflydogs said:
Any pilots from the UK here? At GA fields there I have noticed everyone is required to wear hi-viz vests, to the point they are not even allowed to disembark until someone walks up to the plane and hands them out.
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In fairness, the UK Health and Safety brigade require a hi-viz vest, safety harness, and a spotter in order to make a ham sandwich.
Bob Noel said:
On my plane, I'd put on the rotating beacon before starting.
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I took quite a long break from aviation and when I came back, one of the first things I learned was to permanently leave the beacon switch in the "on" position, so it would be flashing whenever the master is on. Not sure if this became a thing while I was out of the community or if I just somehow missed it years ago, but it's an ingeniously simple practice that provides an excellent warning to those around the aircraft that it is potentially hazardous. It's also a nice "idiot light" for if you get out and forget to kill the master (I've heard...cough).
 
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