Nan Chang CJ-6A mid-air LA County

The accident also highlights the specious nature of manual bailout on these contraptions as a plan B, when it comes to trading paint/shredding control surfaces. Even what I do at work is lined with a safety net (well other than the fiat the seat has been maintained properly, which isn't a given). This whole flying close formation (fingertip, close trail, et al) without a hot seat is more of a squid game affair.

3 feet spacing huh? In an exposed-blade lawnmower? that's T-38 spacing, a century series rickety rocket with "wings" about the size of an F-15 stab. In the Texan2 we used 10 feet wingtip sep, and even with that allowance I got plenty of time looking at my nugget's reflection on the other guy's chrome spinner than I care to recollect (student PIO). 3 feet in a prop as a min transition window allowance is fine, but as the default target? That's just asking for munch-munch cookie monster time of the planks that keep thing aloft and balanced.

Too soon to tell, maybe that's irrelevant here. Could have been a botched rejoin (closure control), someone going blind playing I've got a secret; many possibilities in this space. The damage on the survivor aircraft already gives some clues as to how they traded paint, and why one fared much better than the other.
 
I may be mistaken but I think they were headed home from a weekend event in northern CA where more “dynamic” things were done/taught/practiced. I’m pretty sure this was a 2-ship en route home, meaning it was very unlikely they were “playing aggressively”. All the more curious how this happened.

Since the other pilot survived apparently uninjured, I suspect the NTSB prelim will be informative.
 
I have been dabbling for a year or so. I got an initial class from a friend who was a military instructor, and practice whenever we go somewhere. I mostly just work on station keeping in cruise, closing in to fingertip and moving out to route. That is relatively benign as long as both pilots are on the same page. I had hoped to begin working on maneuvering and rejoins soon, but with recent personal events I am unlikely to fly for the foreseeable future.
 
I’m no expert and I may be misrepresenting this, but it’s my understanding that the separation distance is specifically chosen to match the size and shape of the planes. Any further away and it’s too difficult to align, see the other aircraft, and see the relative distances to tell what’s going on.
 
For context, here’s a vid I took awhile back. this accident makes me think particularly about close trail at 3:30 mark in the vid.

 
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hindsight2020 said:
The accident also highlights the specious nature of manual bailout on these contraptions as a plan B, when it comes to trading paint/shredding control surfaces. Even what I do at work is lined with a safety net (well other than the fiat the seat has been maintained properly, which isn't a given). This whole flying close formation (fingertip, close trail, et al) without a hot seat is more of a squid game affair.

3 feet spacing huh? In an exposed-blade lawnmower? that's T-38 spacing, a century series rickety rocket with "wings" about the size of an F-15 stab. In the Texan2 we used 10 feet wingtip sep, and even with that allowance I got plenty of time looking at my nugget's reflection on the other guy's chrome spinner than I care to recollect (student PIO). 3 feet in a prop as a min transition window allowance is fine, but as the default target? That's just asking for munch-munch cookie monster time of the planks that keep thing aloft and balanced.

Too soon to tell, maybe that's irrelevant here. Could have been a botched rejoin (closure control), someone going blind playing I've got a secret; many possibilities in this space. The damage on the survivor aircraft already gives some clues as to how they traded paint, and why one fared much better than the other.
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Hmmm, wing span about 35 feet. 3 foot wing tip separation is 38 feet center of fuselage to center of fuselage. 6 foot prop is still 35 feet from prop tip to wing tip.
 
Pinecone said:
Hmmm, wing span about 35 feet. 3 foot wing tip separation is 38 feet center of fuselage to center of fuselage. 6 foot prop is still 35 feet from prop tip to wing tip.
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I think you mean "6 foot prop is still (35ft wingspan/2=17.5 plus 3ft separation wingtip to wingtip minus 3ft (half the prop length=) 17.5 feet from prop tip to wing tip"?

I have a fair amount of formation time (and am actually a carded Lead with RPA). Three feet wingtip to wingtip is close but the bearing line also matters (as does stack-down, for that matter). I personally don't feel comfortable getting ahead of about 30 degrees, which is to say I prefer the safety of my prop being behind the stab most of the time. And even then there are only certain Leads I trust enough to fly off of that closely. There are a good number of guys in RPA who fly often enough and with a plane more nimble than my Warrior who fly more acute than 30 degrees. Personally, I'm too chicken to even back-seat in those.
 
OOPS, still a good ways away.

Yes, the step down helps also.

Former USAF pilot and former FAST Lead (T-34) here. Never had issues with 3 foot separation.
 
Pinecone said:
OOPS, still a good ways away.

Yes, the step down helps also.

Former USAF pilot and former FAST Lead (T-34) here. Never had issues with 3 foot separation.
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I got a little nervous with a 300 foot separation. Any YouTube or training materials on this?
 
mandm said:
I got a little nervous with a 300 foot separation. Any YouTube or training materials on this?
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As with getting your PPL or Instrument rating, the books are an essential but by no means sufficient part of the training. DO NOT read the resources that others have provided and go try this with a friend without proper training!

As with most technical skills, learning how to do the “routine” part is fairly straightforward. Learning to identify and deal with contingencies takes more time and insight.

And I can assure you, even though the role of Lead seems “easier” since the other person is doing what looks like the hard part of staying in position, Lead is a whole different skill set. Too many weekend warriors make the mistake of not getting formal training in formation flying and also assume the less experienced person can be lead. It works till it doesn’t.

Aside from the warbird-type associations (RPA, T-34, etc), some of the Mass Arrival groups offer very good formation training at their clinics. Mooney Caravan and Bonanzas to OSH both focus on FAST/FFI-level training. Cherokees to OSH trains to a “softer” (less close) standard and focuses more on the big-group procedures. Cessnas to OSH has the least complex training of all and, candidly, I’d suggest caution with them IF your goal is learning formation training and not joining them for the arrival.

I see a picture of a Cessna in your profile. High-wings are trickier for in-close formation flying. I highly recommend getting training from someone very proficient in high-wing formation flying.
 
1. Lost sight procedures GOTTA be cold knowledge. And it’s often times looking one way and going the other… contrary to normal reaction, which is going the way you’re looking.

2. Join ups are where the majority of colorful things happen. Pretty much GOTTA see to believe things like closure rates, angles and how to deal with under runs.
 
Llewtrah381 said:
High-wings are trickier for in-close formation flying. I highly recommend getting training from someone very proficient in high-wing formation flying.
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Mixed high/low is even trickier.

Some very experienced guys strongly recommend against high wing formation flight. Former Red Baron team lead, for example.
 
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Thanks for the info, I trained in a C172 and Arrow and I now have an Arrow myself. Never updated the photo. That photo might be my first solo photo.
 
NTSB Prelim is out. New guy can't post link. Strange brief of braking out of the formation. I confess to doing one barrel roll rejoin once and did not like the off angle to end up in fingertip. The description sounds like some kind of roll around lead.
 
Wing was on Lead's right. Detachment plan was for Wing to pull up and bank left. Across Lead's path. What could go wrong?

Prelim is lacking a few details that should have been available from the surviving pilot. Was formation abeam or echelon? Fingertip or route?
 
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Ed Haywood said:
Wing was on Lead's right. Detachment plan was for Wing to pull up and bank left. Across Lead's path. What could go wrong?

Prelim is lacking a few details that should have been available from the surviving pilot. Was formation abeam or echelon? Fingertip or route?
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One heck of a “oops…”
 
Ed Haywood said:
Across Lead's path. What could go wrong?

Prelim is lacking a few details that should have been available from the surviving pilot. Was formation abeam or echelon? Fingertip or route?
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Over lead's path but then a continuing roll to 120 degrees bank back toward him. Prelim is lacking details probably because they were not forthcoming.
 
Am interested to know what experienced military pilots think of this breakout procedure.

I understand the theory of it. Pull up to establish vertical separation, then bank across top of lead. But as you pull up, you lose sight of lead unless you roll 90 degrees. At that point you are doing formation aerobatics, with the added risk that entails.

Seems like a far safer procedure would be to cross over and then break turn away. Or just do a 270.

Also seems ill advised to initiate the maneuver immediately after completing a speed change, rather than waiting for both aircraft to stabilize at the new formation speed. The wingman flew a partial barrel roll and yet wound up crossing IN FRONT of lead.

Sounds like airshow practice.
 
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I've been an "observer" a few times on some guys flying formation. The good ones are quite impressive. I did get to fly with two of the RCAF Snowbirds and learn some formation (enough to know I suck at it). Of course, when we took off as a flight of two, Naughty said "I thought you didn't know how to fly formation." I said, I'm just not hitting the guy in front of me. He told me that was the first lesson.
 
Cristo on a segway, what a football bat. "mUh cArDs" and a buck twenty get me half a cup of coffee these days....
 
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