Looking for info on less lethal/non lethal self defense products

SoonerAviator said:
Only gun we have that's more compact/zero recoil is a .25ACP Saturday Nigh Special, but that is not an adequate defense weapon, imo.
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Amen.

The best advice I've seen about carrying a .25ACP (might have come from Jeff Cooper, but I don't recall) is that if you choose to carry one you shouldn't load it. Because if you load it, you might shoot someone. And if the person you shot finds out you shot him, he's going to be really mad.

Yes, yes, I know .25s have killed lots of people. People have been killed with pellet guns, too, but that doesn't make them a good choice for self defense.
 
Mikey52 said:
Don't discount a 22 magnum either.
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If you choose to carry a rimfire, I recommend a revolver. Rimfire cartridges have reliability problems, but at least with a revolver, if it doesn't fire you just pull the trigger again, unlike an auto where you'll have to cycle the slide.
 
I will also add a restraining order is not a small thing. It will show up on his record for life, eliminate his ability to own firearms while under the order, potentially cause problems with employment, it may have a seriously negative effect on his life that may push a borderline risk into a real imminent risk. It’s not something to take lightly. I’m inclined to think that if you felt he was that much of an imminent risk to justify it you would have already perused it before asking a forum of strangers what to do. Nobody online can possibly know the particulars of the situation, but he is a a part of your family’s life for good or bad. Sometimes it’s better to build roads than it is to burn bridges.
 
Flatiowa said:
I will also add a restraining order is not a small thing. It will show up on his record for life, eliminate his ability to own firearms while under the order, potentially cause problems with employment, it may have a seriously negative effect on his life that may push a borderline risk into a real imminent risk. It’s not something to take lightly. I’m inclined to think that if you felt he was that much of an imminent risk to justify it you would have already perused it before asking a forum of strangers what to do. Nobody online can possibly know the particulars of the situation, but he is a a part of your family’s life for good or bad. Sometimes it’s better to build roads than it is to burn bridges.
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Yep, it’s likely to get him really PO’d, perhaps to the point of violence or murder. And it won’t stop those.
 
Flatiowa said:
I will also add a restraining order is not a small thing. It will show up on his record for life, eliminate his ability to own firearms while under the order, potentially cause problems with employment, it may have a seriously negative effect on his life that may push a borderline risk into a real imminent risk. It’s not something to take lightly. I’m inclined to think that if you felt he was that much of an imminent risk to justify it you would have already perused it before asking a forum of strangers what to do.
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You’d be inclined to think correctly.That has already been pursued and denied.
 
Very sorry to read this entire thread. The idea that the #1 threat to most women's lives is a current or former boyfriend/husband is just horrible.

Can I play respectful devil's advocate here and suggest that GTFO is always an option. Rather than arm yourself in anticipation of an avoidable interaction, why not just avoid the interaction?

Clearly it's not an ideal solution but if the alternative is "i'm only comfortable in xyz location with a firearm" maybe xyz location should find it's way to your no-fly list.

Arming your family seems like a sub optimal solution.

Again, all written with respect and sympathy.
 
I don't know how old the "daughters" are here, but there are several states that restrict stun guns for those that are under 16/18/21. Some states require a background check or permit. Some cities/counties ban them even when states permit them. Tasers (the ones with projectiles) are illegal in Rhode Island.
 
2-Bit Speed said:
Pocket carry can be a great option if you pick a gun you can control. Something small like a S&W Bodyguard or Ruger LCP is very easy to carry, but uncomfortable to shoot.
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Sig P365 is small, light, 9mm, and easy/fun to shoot.
 
flyingron said:
I don't know how old the "daughters" are here, but there are several states that restrict stun guns for those that are under 16/18/21. Some states require a background check or permit. Some cities/counties ban them even when states permit them. Tasers (the ones with projectiles) are illegal in Rhode Island.
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I believe @MauleSkinner is in Kansas.

From https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/ccw_reciprocity_map/ks-gun-laws/ ,

Summary of Kansas Gun Laws​

Kansas is a shall-issue, permitless carry state. Licenses are issued at the state level by the Kansas Attorney General’s Office.
There are no requirements for licenses to purchase handguns and no firearms registration. Background checks are not required for private sales. Background checks are required if you’re purchasing a handgun from a Federal Firearms Dealer, with the exception of Kansas concealed carry handgun license holders.
Open and concealed carry are legal without a license in Kansas. Anyone at least 18 years of age and legally entitled to possess a firearm may openly carry a firearm in public without a license or permit. Permitless concealed carry is legal for anyone at least 21 years old that is not prohibited from carrying a firearm. Carry Handgun Licenses (CCHLs) are restricted to residents and members of the military stationed in Kansas. The minimum age to obtain a provisional CCHL is 18 years old and 21 years old to obtain a standard CCHL. Applicants must complete an 8-hour handgun safety and training course approved by the attorney general. In terms of reciprocity, since Kansas has permitless carry, any person 21 years of age and older who can legally possess a firearm may carry a concealed firearm on his or her person without a license or permit. In addition, as of July 1, 2021, all valid concealed carry licenses/permits issued by another jurisdiction are recognized in Kansas for non-residents.

The minimum age to possess a firearm with a barrel less than 12 inches long is 18 years old and individuals under 21 years of age may concealed carry only when on their own land, abode, or fixed place of business. There are other exceptions for 18-year-olds, including when attending a firearms safety course, target shooting at established ranges or when hunting.
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Tasers or Stun Guns?
Is it legal to own a taser or stun gun in Kansas?
Yes. Stun guns and Tasers are legal to purchase and possess without a license. However, they are not allowed in schools [72-6132].
 
Half Fast said:
If you choose to carry a rimfire, I recommend a revolver. Rimfire cartridges have reliability problems, but at least with a revolver, if it doesn't fire you just pull the trigger again, unlike an auto where you'll have to cycle the slide.
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This is a case of quality ammo being a must. Personally, when I carry a 22LR weapon, it's carrying Federal Punch 22LR in it. In this case, when I go for a 22, I'm usually carrying a small Ruger LCP 22... which happens to be a fairly reliable option.


I'd probably try to get it past 500 rounds to make sure it's reliable... but that's also important for the operator becoming comfortable and accurate anyway.

www.activeresponsetraining.net

My Thoughts on the Ruger LCP .22 Pistol

I purchased the new Ruger LCP II "Lite Rack" .22 handgun about nine months ago. I've finally got enough rounds through it to trust it for defensive carry. I'll be honest. When I
www.activeresponsetraining.net www.activeresponsetraining.net

My other favorite is currently the relatively cheap Kel Tec P17, which has been a pleasant surprisingly fun and good gun.
 
RyanShort1 said:
This is a case of quality ammo being a must. Personally, when I carry a 22LR weapon, it's carrying Federal Punch 22LR in it. In this case, when I go for a 22, I'm usually carrying a small Ruger LCP 22... which happens to be a fairly reliable option.
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This is true, but I've seen even high quality .22 match ammo have an occasional failure to fire. It's inherent in having the primer material distributed around the rim of the cartridge. Sometimes it's not distributed evenly and a firing pin strike happens in a spot without sufficient primer.

SWMBO has one of those Ruger .22s (a gift from @2-Bit Speed ) and it's a very nice pistol. I like it a lot. We've both shot it at the range, though, and she's had several jams. I suspect the problem is with her grip, as I had less of a jamming problem (but still a few), but in a self-defense situation you can't count on being able to fire from a perfect position and you may not have a great grip or you may have to shoot with your off hand. IME, small, light autos really need a firm grip, as the gun itself doesn't have enough mass to cycle reliably on its own.

For her, for self-defense, I'd prefer she carry a revolver, so if she wants to start carrying I'll probably get her a revolver in .22mag. It won't jam, and if it fails to fire a fresh round is only a trigger pull away.
 
Half Fast said:
I believe @MauleSkinner is in Kansas.

From https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/ccw_reciprocity_map/ks-gun-laws/ ,

Summary of Kansas Gun Laws​

Kansas is a shall-issue, permitless carry state. Licenses are issued at the state level by the Kansas Attorney General’s Office.
There are no requirements for licenses to purchase handguns and no firearms registration. Background checks are not required for private sales. Background checks are required if you’re purchasing a handgun from a Federal Firearms Dealer, with the exception of Kansas concealed carry handgun license holders.
Open and concealed carry are legal without a license in Kansas. Anyone at least 18 years of age and legally entitled to possess a firearm may openly carry a firearm in public without a license or permit. Permitless concealed carry is legal for anyone at least 21 years old that is not prohibited from carrying a firearm. Carry Handgun Licenses (CCHLs) are restricted to residents and members of the military stationed in Kansas. The minimum age to obtain a provisional CCHL is 18 years old and 21 years old to obtain a standard CCHL. Applicants must complete an 8-hour handgun safety and training course approved by the attorney general. In terms of reciprocity, since Kansas has permitless carry, any person 21 years of age and older who can legally possess a firearm may carry a concealed firearm on his or her person without a license or permit. In addition, as of July 1, 2021, all valid concealed carry licenses/permits issued by another jurisdiction are recognized in Kansas for non-residents.

The minimum age to possess a firearm with a barrel less than 12 inches long is 18 years old and individuals under 21 years of age may concealed carry only when on their own land, abode, or fixed place of business. There are other exceptions for 18-year-olds, including when attending a firearms safety course, target shooting at established ranges or when hunting.
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Tasers or Stun Guns?
Is it legal to own a taser or stun gun in Kansas?
Yes. Stun guns and Tasers are legal to purchase and possess without a license. However, they are not allowed in schools [72-6132].
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Correct, and it’s also worth noting that without a concealed carry permit, it’s illegal to carry within so many feet of a school, and the instructor noted that it’s pretty much impossible to drive across Wichita without encroaching on a school.

That’s one of the reasons I’m hesitant…I need somebody to help me figure out where to find that kind of stuff. It’s not conveniently organized like FARs. ;)
 
MauleSkinner said:
but as others have noted, besides state statutes, you’ve also got to consider down to the local level in some places.
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Not much in Kansas. From the link I posted,

1729530508055.png​

Kansas is a preemption state, and with the couple of minor exceptions listed above, local governments are not allowed to create their own gun laws. About all local governments can do that effects you are to prohibit you from carrying in gov't buildings IF they have implemented security measures like xray machines and guards.
 
Oh, and BTW,...

1729530744622.png​

Kansas is VERY friendly for carrying weapons. Including open carry.
 
Pay no attention to the washboard abs



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Half Fast said:
Amen.

The best advice I've seen about carrying a .25ACP (might have come from Jeff Cooper, but I don't recall) is that if you choose to carry one you shouldn't load it. Because if you load it, you might shoot someone. And if the person you shot finds out you shot him, he's going to be really mad.
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Yes, Jeff Cooper. I first read it in Cooper on Handguns.

The way I recall it is:

"If it will make you feel better to carry it, go ahead. But do not load it. If you load it, you might shoot at someone. And if you shoot at someone, you might hit them. And this will make them very mad at you."

Supposed advice given to a female operative of a 3 letter agency.
 
2-Bit Speed said:
For a new or recoil-sensitive shooter?
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I wouldn't start them with it, but the first time I took mine to the range, I put 200 rounds through it. Only reason I stopped was that was all I had with me.

I would never had thought I would put 200 rounds through a subcompact in a single range session.
 
MauleSkinner said:
but as others have noted, besides state statutes, you’ve also got to consider down to the local level in some places.
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Not in Kansas, OK or MO you don’t. The states don’t allow local laws to preempt state law regarding firearms. The firearms rules are far more consistent than knife, pepper spray, etc…

Feel free to pm me for Kansas specifics. But getting the ccl just to have the option is prudent, it isn’t a quick process. Measure in months, not weeks.
 
Lcp 380 is a great pocket gun, and a p365 is a great carry gun. But I can’t say I’d start a new shooter on either, if I wanted them to get comfortable.

And remember a lot of lady’s clothes just don’t have pockets, or they are very tiny. They also tend to not be fit to just hide a Glock 19 and holster in the waistband. At least not as easily with form fitting clothes
 
I'm really sorry to hear about this situation, it sounds absolutely awful. Dudes who just don't get the message can be total ****ing whackjobs.

But IMHO -- unless they've progressed to the point where the boundaries they've set with him are: "I better never see or hear from you again or I'm calling the police", I don't think a handgun is the right solution.

The biggest concern to me about equipping them with a gun is who the offender is (ex husband and biological father of 1 of the daughters IIRC?). Are they actually emotionally prepared to shoot the guy? Because that's not just shooting a stranger who is trying to attack you where the math is simple. The mental math on being prepared to use a gun against someone you know and/or are related to is different. And even suggesting you have the gun and are prepared to use it to the guy can ratchet up tensions by a factor of 1000x and aggravate an already bad situation. Non-lethal doesn't carry the same problem. Still severe, but you don't have to worry about killing someone you know.

But if the guys harassment is bad enough it might be exactly the protection that's needed.

Just my $0.02.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
I'm really sorry to hear about this situation, it sounds absolutely awful. Dudes who just don't get the message can be total ****ing whackjobs.

But IMHO -- unless they've progressed to the point where the boundaries they've set with him are: "I better never see or hear from you again or I'm calling the police", I don't think a handgun is the right solution.

The biggest concern to me about equipping them with a gun is who the offender is (ex husband and biological father of 1 of the daughters IIRC?). Are they actually emotionally prepared to shoot the guy? Because that's not just shooting a stranger who is trying to attack you where the math is simple. The mental math on being prepared to use a gun against someone you know and/or are related to is different. And even suggesting you have the gun and are prepared to use it to the guy can ratchet up tensions by a factor of 1000x and aggravate an already bad situation. Non-lethal doesn't carry the same problem. Still severe, but you don't have to worry about killing someone you know.

But if the guys harassment is bad enough it might be exactly the protection that's needed.

Just my $0.02.
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Extremely true.
 
I know all the gun “gurus” and self defense instructors dismiss the 22 LR, but many years ago I had a buisness as a contractor for a nationally known pork producer as a culler. My job was specifically to go around to their grow sites and euthanize injured, sick, un thrifty pigs on a regular circuit. A 22 will absolutely drop were it stands even a 400 pound boar with proper shot placement. And before I get flamed for it, the absolutely most humane thing that can be done to an injured, prolapsed, or runting pig in a concentrated grow facility is an instant humane euthanasia, the pigs are worse to each other than most people can possibly imagine.
 
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Half Fast said:
But will it deter an aggressive attacker with less than perfect shot placement?
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That really depends, a lowly thug thinking they will get a quick $100 by mugging you and getting aggressive when you tell them to F off and they pull a knife to stab you to save face infront of their buddies, probably. A loud bang, instant pain, and seeing they are bleeding will probably panic them into a non threat. And emotionally motivated aggressor or a psychotic absolutely not. They could be mortally wounded and still be attacking. There was a reason the 45 caliber was adopted as minimum military side arm caliber in the early 1900’s after bad experiences with smaller calibers not stopping dedicated indigenous warriors and wasn’t until pretty recently the bean counters reduced it. If I’m not mistaken, the special forces still use 45 acp, with a big enough hole it doesn’t matter where it hits, it vents the blood, and no blood pressure, no threat
 
I used to do a lot of teaching (NRA Pistol and Personal Protection instructor).

I started all new shooters off with a .22 LR semi auto. Then to a full sized (Browning HP for one) 9mm. Then to a full sized .45 (1911). Most shooters were fine with them all in the first range session.

I am not a fan of most .380s. Due to blow back operation, they are harder to rack the slide than a 9mm or .45. Also, due to small size, they are very snappy. Most people who were considering a .380 ended up opting for a 9 or 45.

If they were interested, I would also let them shoot a .3557 revolver, starting with .38 Special loads, then full power .357.

If you manage expectations and let them move up at their own pace, it works well.
 
Pinecone said:
I am not a fan of most .380s. Due to blow back operation, they are harder to rack the slide than a 9mm or .45. Also, due to small size, they are very snappy. Most people who were considering a .380 ended up opting for a 9 or 45.
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I agree for the pocket 380s, but companies are making locked-breach 380s in bigger sizes that are very comfortable to shoot because they have almost no recoil. @SkyChaser has one. I think they can make for great first-pistols.
 
flyingpreacher said:
@MauleSkinner Thanks for providing additional information. I can only imagine the intensity of that situation and the residual effects that has and will likely continue to have. Those above have addressed the majority of the significant concerns. As stated, if the boundaries are being pushed to that degree that physical force is even anticipated, a protective order seems to be in line with sound reason. Going to a judge and laying out how the boundaries have repeatedly been crossed and showing that the less lethal option of pepper spray is not enough to make these ladies feel safe should be cause for justification.

As far as the firearms go, it has been my experience (LEO, competitive shooter, NRA instructor, etc) that the biggest cause for people being uncomfortable with firearms is lack of personal experience. Remember the first time you climbed into the cockpit of an airplane? You might have been excited, but there was probably also a bit of apprehension. Now, after hundreds or even thousands of hours, there is no fear because you are so comfortable that even if/when those "unexpected events" occur, you know what to do. Similarly, those first few hundred rounds down range take some thought and concentration, but if you can get someone who is a good instructor and would be willing to work through that period of discomfort with them, that could become a much more reasonable option.

I know a lot of people are hesitant to make the jump to the lethal option, but I'd rather have the lethal option and not need to go that far than to need to go that far and only have the pepper spray.

I PM'd you, and my offer still stands. If you want, I can reach out to some of my contacts out there for you. If you don't want me to, that's perfectly fine. At the end of the day, I just want what's best for you and your family!
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A very reasonable approach listed here. I am an NRA certified Range Safety Officer and I also have a CPL (as it is called in Washington state). I cannot agree with the statement that it is better to have a gun and not need it than to need one and not have it more strongly. And it is important that we the people continue to have that choice.

Mikey52 said:
Don't discount a 22 magnum either.
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I read somewhere (recently) that being shot, or the threat of being shot, by a .22 is a great deterrent.

Half Fast said:
I believe @MauleSkinner is in Kansas.

From https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/ccw_reciprocity_map/ks-gun-laws/ ,

Summary of Kansas Gun Laws​

Kansas is a shall-issue, permitless carry state. Licenses are issued at the state level by the Kansas Attorney General’s Office.
There are no requirements for licenses to purchase handguns and no firearms registration. Background checks are not required for private sales. Background checks are required if you’re purchasing a handgun from a Federal Firearms Dealer, with the exception of Kansas concealed carry handgun license holders.
Open and concealed carry are legal without a license in Kansas. Anyone at least 18 years of age and legally entitled to possess a firearm may openly carry a firearm in public without a license or permit. Permitless concealed carry is legal for anyone at least 21 years old that is not prohibited from carrying a firearm. Carry Handgun Licenses (CCHLs) are restricted to residents and members of the military stationed in Kansas. The minimum age to obtain a provisional CCHL is 18 years old and 21 years old to obtain a standard CCHL. Applicants must complete an 8-hour handgun safety and training course approved by the attorney general. In terms of reciprocity, since Kansas has permitless carry, any person 21 years of age and older who can legally possess a firearm may carry a concealed firearm on his or her person without a license or permit. In addition, as of July 1, 2021, all valid concealed carry licenses/permits issued by another jurisdiction are recognized in Kansas for non-residents.

The minimum age to possess a firearm with a barrel less than 12 inches long is 18 years old and individuals under 21 years of age may concealed carry only when on their own land, abode, or fixed place of business. There are other exceptions for 18-year-olds, including when attending a firearms safety course, target shooting at established ranges or when hunting.
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Tasers or Stun Guns?
Is it legal to own a taser or stun gun in Kansas?
Yes. Stun guns and Tasers are legal to purchase and possess without a license. However, they are not allowed in schools [72-6132].
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Sounds like Kansas is very friendly towards those who would carry for peaceful purposes. Good for Kansas.
 
2-Bit Speed said:
I agree for the pocket 380s, but companies are making locked-breach 380s in bigger sizes that are very comfortable to shoot because they have almost no recoil. @SkyChaser has one. I think they can make for great first-pistols.
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The M&P 380 EZ is specifically made to be "EZ" to rack and load the magazine. Recoil is minimal and is internally hammer-fired, not a traditional striker-fired so the strength required to rack the slide is low. It's a micro compact, but it's not quite Ruger 380 LCP small.
 
Redacted: thread drift.
 
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Mikey52 said:
Don't discount a 22 magnum either.
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Ghery said:
I read somewhere (recently) that being shot, or the threat of being shot, by a .22 is a great deterrent.
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Best advice I ever received in regards to caliber choice is this: "At the end of the day, bad guys don't like holes."
 
Pinecone said:
I am not a fan of most .380s. Due to blow back operation, they are harder to rack the slide than a 9mm or .45. Also, due to small size, they are very snappy. Most people who were considering a .380 ended up opting for a 9 or 45.
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For someone's initial introduction to a new semi-auto, I load them with a single round.

The 1911-style Colt .380 Mustang is one of those with a locked breech. It is more "snappy" than a full-sized 1911, but not bad. Certainly not a piece of junk like the straight blow back Walther PPKS.
 
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