Getting "Trapped" By AME's Refusing Fast Track

Status
Not open for further replies.
J

Jon Wilder

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Oct 19, 2015
Messages
272
Location
Greenville, SC
Display Name
Display name:
Jwylde
I'm reading in other places where people are coming in with all of the necessary paperwork for, say, ADHD fast track, to an appointment with an AME, only to be refused the fast track and the AME defers anyway. I just happened to read a Reddit post where a couple of posters stated that they're finding around their area that most AMEs are still deferring despite fast track being available.

Here the FAA actually went and did something to reduce the backlog at Oklahoma City, only to have AMEs bottleneck the system by refusing the fast track and deferring.

This reveals that now, the FAA is not the ONLY problem with the system.
 
I'd say any AME not following the FAA procedures should be reported to the RFS.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
I'd say any AME not following the FAA procedures should be reported to the RFS.
Click to expand...

They don’t care. Instances of consequence are RARE. The faa doesn’t follow faa procedures… why are they gonna take some AME to task for that?

The AMA doesn’t either. AMEs are administrative docs, they don’t “treat”, so can do no more than administrative harm, which the ama couldn’t care a lick about.

FINALLY some AMEs are being sued for malpractice, this may start to set things straight, but not likely any time soon, who knows?
 
Happened to me, until I found a AME that wasn’t an old codger stuck in his ways. A good AME is worth their weight in gold.

Edit: just to clarify on the above cruddy AME, on a phone call where I was asking about fast track process and if he did it, told me that he always defers and will not do the fast track despite all boxes being checked.

The next guy I called was awesome and I’m lucky to have found him.
 
Last edited:
What a load of malarkey, Jon Wilder. I'm calling you out. You too, Jeff Oslick, Tools and No Doc Left Behind" Let's PILE ON here in the wrong.

Until Today, yes today, see the attachment. Today is the first day we can fast track anxiety disorder (if you qualify for that and combine it with ADD fast track. Note the DATE on the doucment. The change is at the lowest left on row A.

Anyone doing that for prior to today was indeed going to get his AME arse in a sling.
Of course, you hang the AME B4 you do any work.

Good luck getting anywhere.

1727313734981.png

It's in the newly added "Exception:" which was not present in the June version.

Will you look at the date on this document: 09/25/2024, just published ten hours ago.
SHAME ON YOU ALL. This string really should be named "idjits".

FAA is a huge organization. It moves all in unison. Like the DOD there is idiocy. But nobody changes until the policy becomes Policy. So you Four in the "gang of Four" obviously didn't both to read the orders.
 

Attachments

  • ADD.Fast.Track.Change09.25.24.pdf
    173.7 KB · Views: 105
Last edited:
bbchien said:
What a load of malarkey, Jon Wilder. I'm calling you out. You too, Jeff Oslick, Tools and No Doc Left Behind" Let's PILE ON here in the wrong.

Until Today, yes today, see the attachment. Today is the first day we can fast track anxiety disorder (if you qualify for that and combine it with ADD fast track. Note the DATE on the doucment. The change is at the lowest left on row A.

Anyone doing that for prior to today was indeed going to get his AME arse in a sling.
Of course, you hang the AME B4 you do any work.

Good luck getting anywhere.

View attachment 133815
It's in the newly added "Exception:" which was not present in the June version.

Will you look at the date on this document: 09/25/2024, just published ten hours ago.
SHAME ON YOU ALL. This string really should be named "idjits".

FAA is a huge organization. It moves all in unison. Like the DOD there is idiocy. But nobody changes until the policy becomes Policy. So you Four in the "gang of Four" obviously didn't both to read the orders.
Click to expand...
I made no mention of anxiety fast track. Notice I mentioned ADHD fast track, which has been around since August 30th, 2023.
 
Lindberg said:
Anyone who has a condition on the FAA's radar would be well served to do a consult with their chosen AME prior to the live exam. This is just another example of why.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. I can't understand why anyone with any kind of questionable medical history at all wouldn't do a consult first (other than not realizing it's an option). Heck, I did one before I got my 1st class for my current job just to make sure there weren't going to be any surprises - and I didn't have any particularly worrisome health issues.
 
Jon Wilder said:
I made no mention of anxiety fast track. Notice I mentioned ADHD fast track, which has been around since August 30th, 2023.
Click to expand...
Yeah but if you have even a suspicion of an common associated condition, the AME can't do that...though now, today he can do that for anxiety disorder.
None of your posts demonstrated ANY awareness of that.
You probalby didn't know that about 40% of supposed ADD cases came to light because the attentional was due to an anxiety disorder!

If you were aware of the orders you can read them to the AME. AND if he needs them read to him: WRONG AME. But he has to do the due diligence and if he thinks there's a side disorder he ISN'T GOING TO DO A THING (although now he could, but he could still decline). Did that ever occur to you?

You're never "trapped". Your'e always free to find someone who is up to date, do another exam or not other exam- just get advised.

B
 
bbchien said:
You're never "trapped". Your'e always free to find someone who is up to date, do another exam or not other exam- just get advised.

B
Click to expand...
Are you saying you can stop the exam at any time and decide to go to a different AME?
 
Jon Wilder said:
Are you saying you can stop the exam at any time and decide to go to a different AME?
Click to expand...
No; you don't initiate the actual medical (do not provide the MedExpress number) until you are reasonably confident of the process, and the outcome.
 
bbchien said:
What a load of malarkey, Jon Wilder. I'm calling you out. You too, Jeff Oslick, Tools and No Doc Left Behind" Let's PILE ON here in the wrong.
Click to expand...
You're calling me out for telling someone to report an AME they think is not following the rules. I made no specific judgement that was definitely the here case. So, you're implying that pilots don't have any right to complain if they think they're being mistreated by an AME. Got it.
 
Jon Wilder said:
I'm reading in other places where people are coming in with all of the necessary paperwork for, say, ADHD fast track, to an appointment with an AME, only to be refused the fast track and the AME defers anyway. I just happened to read a Reddit post where a couple of posters stated that they're finding around their area that most AMEs are still deferring despite fast track being available.

Here the FAA actually went and did something to reduce the backlog at Oklahoma City, only to have AMEs bottleneck the system by refusing the fast track and deferring.

This reveals that now, the FAA is not the ONLY problem with the system.
Click to expand...
The problem is you have no information concerning the information contained in the “necessary paperwork”.

AMEs can try to guide people and their doctors can provide the data the AME desires, but neither is going to misrepresent the patients’s health condition.

Just because someone desires fast track, doesn’t mean they qualify for fast track.
 
Clip4 said:
The problem is you have no information concerning the information contained in the “necessary paperwork”.

AMEs can try to guide people and their doctors can provide the data the AME desires, but neither is going to misrepresent the patients’s health condition.

Just because someone desires fast track, doesn’t mean they qualify for fast track.
Click to expand...
This is not the issue. AMEs are refusing ADHD fast track altogether.

There have been a few people who were smart enough to go AME shopping and call with the fast track inquiry ahead of time, only to be told over the phone that they always defer. This happened upon the contacting of several AMEs.

So, if you plan to try the ADHD fast track route, you will probably have to shop around for an AME who will do it because not all of them will.
 
Jon Wilder said:
This is not the issue. AMEs are refusing ADHD fast track altogether.

There have been a few people who were smart enough to go AME shopping and call with the fast track inquiry ahead of time, only to be told over the phone that they always defer. This happened upon the contacting of several AMEs.

So, if you plan to try the ADHD fast track route, you will probably have to shop around for an AME who will do it because not all of them will.
Click to expand...
You have zero clue what the issue is because you are not privileged to these people”s medical history and what they submitted. You also have no evidence on the number of AMEs categorically denying fast track. And probably nobody does.

I know AMEs that go above and beyond to work with all their special issuance applicants. I also know some that will flat look you in the face and advise you to go to another AME if you have health issues that will require an SI because they aren’t going to get involved in the process.

If you have any health issue that is going to require an SI, you better be working with an AME who is greasing the skids so things slide through smoothly before the application is submitted. Not just “coming in with all of the necessary paperwork”.
 
Clip4 said:
You have zero clue what the issue is because you are not privileged to these people”s medical history and what they submitted. You also have no evidence on the number of AMEs categorically denying fast track. And probably nobody does.

I know AMEs that go above and beyond to work with all their special issuance applicants. I also know some that will flat look you in the face and advise you to go to another AME if you have health issues that will require an SI because they aren’t going to get involved in the process.

If you have any health issue that is going to require an SI, you better be working with an AME who is greasing the skids so things slide through smoothly before the application is submitted. Not just “coming in with all of the necessary paperwork”.
Click to expand...
OMG you're not hearing me.

Take that sentence where I mentioned the few people who were smart enough to go AME shopping and call with the fast track inquiry ahead of time. Meaning they hadn't even gone in to see the AME so the AME knows nothing about them. They simply contacted the AME's office and asked if they do ADHD fast track, and they were told by each that they always defer no matter what.

What part of this is not sinking in?
 
Jon Wilder said:
OMG you're not hearing me.

Take that sentence where I mentioned the few people who were smart enough to go AME shopping and call with the fast track inquiry ahead of time. Meaning they hadn't even gone in to see the AME so the AME knows nothing about them. They simply contacted the AME's office and asked if they do ADHD fast track, and they were told by each that they always defer no matter what.

What part of this is not sinking in?
Click to expand...
Listening is not on his resume
 
It's easy to deflect getting mad at oneself over lack of prep, onto others......

It's the same umbrage at extra fees, unannounced from the big FBO. When in reality I should have asked in more detail and gotten a name. I don't fall for that one anymore.
 
Last edited:
I think the fact that there is so much confusion, misinterpretation, misinformation, misunderstanding of the entire SI process is telling in itself. When so many AMEs don’t fully understand it, that’s a sad commentary when the pilots are 100% dependent upon the AME to navigate this process.

Yes, there are great AMEs, there are also clearly not good ones and the pilots suffer from that. And unlike the normal practice of “getting a second opinion” in the patient/doctor process, this isn’t as simple as it sounds as any first opinion or attempt must then be overcome, which can take over 2 years and even never be resolved. I’ve been told changing AMEs can be viewed as negative as well.

I’m sick of being told complaining isn’t going to help. That’s a total cop out response.

Things are getting better, that doesn’t mean we should be satisfied with where things are.
 
The fact that many choose to blame others....is a sickness in America. And until you have attempted to change the ;marching orders in the system..... you'll get that "life is hort, fill the squares.

As the GOOD private attorneys say, "get good advice".
Like the guy who worte me recently for help with his color fail to which he bombed on over to the FSDO, for the In person color eval and failed.

He got to good advice, TOO late. He needs an attorney becuase no matter how many alternate tests he fails his cert will forever read, "not valid for flight at night or by light gun color signal. He thinks that's NOT HIS FAULT.

The message is, "Get good advice"...or in the end you have yourself to blame. now by comparison, AME refusing to do Fast Track- sad, but jsut a speed bump. This latter color fellow- it's forever unless he can show that the in person Waiver color eval was incorrectly done.
 
That’s the issue. People are going to the Drs that the FAA has outlined as AME experts for that advice. You’re basically saying go get advice that’s “good” when the pilots/patient have zero basis for evaluating if that’s “good” advice in the first place. If it’s not, your remedy is go get an attorney to try and overcome that or “you should have gotten good advice in the first place.” See the issue?

I’m glad you are a good AME, that doesn’t resolve the fact that there are many that aren’t and there is no effective remedy for the pilots/patients that are finding that out afterwards.

You’re basically using a circular logic. What’s good advice? One that results in the right outcome. How do you get the right outcome? With good advice. Okay, but what’s “good advice??!!!”
 
Jon Wilder said:
OMG you're not hearing me.

Take that sentence where I mentioned the few people who were smart enough to go AME shopping and call with the fast track inquiry ahead of time. Meaning they hadn't even gone in to see the AME so the AME knows nothing about them. They simply contacted the AME's office and asked if they do ADHD fast track, and they were told by each that they always defer no matter what.

What part of this is not sinking in?
Click to expand...

“I’m reading in other places where people are coming in with all of the necessary paperwork for, say, ADHD fast track, to an appointment with an AME, only to be refused the fast track and the AME defers anyway. I just happened to read a Reddit post where a couple of posters stated that they're finding around their area that most AMEs are still deferring despite fast track being available.

Here the FAA actually went and did something to reduce the backlog at Oklahoma City, only to have AMEs bottleneck the system by refusing the fast track and deferring.

This reveals that now, the FAA is not the ONLY problem with the system.”

Yea, I must have missed that sentence.
 
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
That’s the issue. People are going to the Drs that the FAA has outlined as AME experts for that advice. You’re basically saying go get advice that’s “good” when the pilots/patient have zero basis for evaluating if that’s “good” advice in the first place. If it’s not, your remedy is go get an attorney to try and overcome that or “you should have gotten good advice in the first place.” See the issue?

I’m glad you are a good AME, that doesn’t resolve the fact that there are many that aren’t and there is no effective remedy for the pilots/patients that are finding that out afterwards.

You’re basically using a circular logic. What’s good advice? One that results in the right outcome. How do you get the right outcome? With good advice. Okay, but what’s “good advice??!!!”
Click to expand...
I’m saying you ask the AME ahead of time if he’s willing to put a fast track through.

No response….WRONG AME.

It’s the same as asking the FBO what all his charges are goong to be. If he is not transparent, WRONG FBO.

Do you have a problem with personal responsibility?

In the past year FAA really ramped up AME clerical responsibility. Yeah drive more away, that’s the ticket! Same thing happened to DPEs (the 50 hour in like type rule which defies economics, and SENSE) and see how that’s working for you….

That’s if and when you get that far….some practical test exams are up to $900.
Tarheel pilot has something there…..

Or would you rather just say , “Waaaaah!”
 
Last edited:
bbchien said:
I saying you ask the SME ahead of time if he’s willing.
No response….WRONG AME.

It’s the same as asking the FBO what all his charges are goong to be. If he is not transparent, WRONG FBO.

Do you have a problem with personal responsibility?

In the past year FAA really ramped up AME clerical responsibility. Yeah drive more away, that’s the ticket! Same thing happened to DPEs (the 59 hour rule) and see how that’s working for you….

That’s if and when you get that far.
Click to expand...
I don’t see what this has to do with getting bad advice. So, in your example about the FBO, let’s just say that are “transparent” but they are completely wrong in what they tell you. They haven’t checked the most recent details or have the correct info, yet you make a plan based upon that advice. You’d expect it to be accurate, and correct, right?

When that gets me into a bad situation, I’m just supposed to say, oh well, guess it’s my fault for trusting that the “authority” knew what they were talking about.

I have zero issue with personal responsibility, it’s a dying attribute. However, that’s a 2 way street. And when the Dr or FBO or whatever screw up, they should take the personal responsibility to fix it, not take the tough sh$t approach, shame on you for trusting that I know what I’m doing even though the FAA says I do.

Great system.
 
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
That’s the issue. People are going to the Drs that the FAA has outlined as AME experts for that advice. You’re basically saying go get advice that’s “good” when the pilots/patient have zero basis for evaluating if that’s “good” advice in the first place. If it’s not, your remedy is go get an attorney to try and overcome that or “you should have gotten good advice in the first place.” See the issue?
Click to expand...
When you go for an FAA exam, the AME is not your doctor. He's not working for you. He's working for the FAA as it's designee. If you want advice from an AME, off the record, on behalf of you only, you'll need to go in for a consult.
 
Lindberg said:
When you go for an FAA exam, the AME is not your doctor. He's not working for you. He's working for the FAA as it's designee. If you want advice from an AME, off the record, on behalf of you only, you'll need to go in for a consult.
Click to expand...

Great, that doesn’t change the fact that you can get bad advice from the AME even during a consult if they don’t know the regulations/processes in and out. Hence, when you get to that place, some deferring even when they don’t need to.

If the process were as straightforward as it should be, each AME would be handling it the same way…they aren’t.
 
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
Great, that doesn’t change the fact that you can get bad advice from the AME even during a consult if they don’t know the regulations/processes in and out. Hence, when you get to that place, some deferring even when they don’t need to.

If the process were as straightforward as it should be, each AME would be handling it the same way…they aren’t.
Click to expand...
You want robotic AME's; they aren't. But if you want to know what a particular AME is going to do based on particular information, place to ask him is in a consultation.
 
Lindberg said:
Are there guidelines that say under certain circumstances an AME must issue a medical certificate? Or, rather, do they say he may issue one?
Click to expand...
What does that have to do with following the FAA provided guidelines? If you’re saying the whole medical certificate issuance is a subjective matter and AMEs can do whatever they want, then it’s even worse than ever imagined.

But I don’t think this is a serious question. If it is, then I hope you’re not in anyway involved in the matter.
 
flyingron said:
DPEs aren't driven away by paperwork, the number of available designee approvals is intentionally constrained by the FAA...
Click to expand...
What's the motivation for that?
 
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
What does that have to do with following the FAA provided guidelines? If you’re saying the whole medical certificate issuance is a subjective matter and AMEs can do whatever they want, then it’s even worse than ever imagined.

But I don’t think this is a serious question. If it is, then I hope you’re not in anyway involved in the matter.
Click to expand...
You're the one suggesting an AME violates FAA guidelines when not issuing a medical certificate. So asking which guidelines those are seems like a serious question.
 
Lindberg said:
You're the one suggesting an AME violates FAA guidelines when not issuing a medical certificate. So asking which guidelines those are seems like a serious question.
Click to expand...
You should read more closely. Where did I use the word violate or “suggest” that? I’ve suggested that the process is too confusing to both AMEs and pilots alike. And thus AMEs are handling the same situations differently. Not a good process.

I also suggested that the AMEs get better versed in the FAA guidelines so that they follow them properly. If followed properly, then there should be the same outcome for the same situation. This isn’t the case.

You said yourself these aren’t your Dr., they are an extension of the FAA to evaluate medical fitness based upon strict and outlined standards. So there is no interpretation of symptoms that can be misinterpreted. You either meet the guidelines or don’t. If the AME is following the guidelines, every AME should come to the same conclusion. They aren’t, that’s the issue.
 
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
You should read more closely. Where did I use the word violate or “suggest” that? I’ve suggested that the process is too confusing to both AMEs and pilots alike. And thus AMEs are handling the same situations differently. Not a good process.

I also suggested that the AMEs get better versed in the FAA guidelines so that they follow them properly. If followed properly, then there should be the same outcome for the same situation. This isn’t the case.

You said yourself these aren’t your Dr., they are an extension of the FAA to evaluate medical fitness based upon strict and outlined standards. So there is no interpretation of symptoms that can be misinterpreted. You either meet the guidelines or don’t. If the AME is following the guidelines, every AME should come to the same conclusion. They aren’t, that’s the issue.
Click to expand...
No two cases are the same, so we don't actually know different AMEs wouldn't have also deferred the airmen described in the OP. It's been told that there are AMEs that just won't issue under the fast track. That's their prerogative, and the ultimate outcome should be the same when deferred to the FAA. But the advice is always the same: get a consult first. Neither the guidelines nor your medical history are spelled out with mathematical precision, and AMEs are not computers.
 
Lindberg said:
No two cases are the same, so we don't actually know different AMEs wouldn't have also deferred the airmen described in the OP. It's been told that there are AMEs that just won't issue under the fast track. That's their prerogative, and the ultimate outcome should be the same when deferred to the FAA. But the advice is always the same: get a consult first. Neither the guidelines nor your medical history are spelled out with mathematical precision, and AMEs are not computers.
Click to expand...
Then what is the point of FAA provided check lists like the attached? Seems pretty black and white.
 

Attachments

  • Anxiety_Depression_Decision_Tool.pdf
    95.5 KB · Views: 50
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top