FlightmechH3
Pre-takeoff checklist
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FlightmechH3
One pilot survived.
Google brought up an article about two planes, a Nanchang and a yak 52 Cessna. One fatality. God knows what the actual facts are, but there is a picture of a crashed cj6Details?
Sounds like formation flying gone wrong. I have a photo of one I won't share, but it looks like it came down in a flat spin.Details?
You witnessed it?Sounds like formation flying gone wrong. I have a photo of one I won't share, but it looks like it came down in a flat spin.
No. Witness posted a photo of the scene before anyone arrived.You witnessed it?
Do you know the N numbers? It's possible I've been in that Yak.No. Witness posted a photo of the scene before anyone arrived.
This one, #55Do you know the N numbers? It's possible I've been in that Yak.
Well they did meet up. Having never even contemplated it, what’s so dangerous about formation flying? I get that Blue Angel-style up-close stuff is a different thing, but say, two friends doing this in somewhat close formation. What are the big issues?Some info here:
One person killed after mid-air collision between two planes in Lancaster
Authorities say a mid-air collision with two planes resulted in one person being killed in Lancaster.www.cbsnews.com
Complete speculation on my part, but based on the types, I'm guessing a formation attempt gone badly.
If done correctly, there are none. Like most anything else. But especially when learning things can go wrong. The red stars fly pretty tight. 3 feet spacing when everyone is carded. This hits home. I spent this weekend flying at a red star formation clinic in Waycross ga.Well they did meet up. Having never even contemplated it, what’s so dangerous about formation flying? I get that Blue Angel-style up-close stuff is a different thing, but say, two friends doing this in somewhat close formation. What are the big issues?
Not a lot of wiggle room. I just wonder if the risk is worth the reward for weekend warriors.If done correctly, there are none. Like most anything else. But especially when learning things can go wrong. The red stars fly pretty tight. 3 feet spacing when everyone is carded. This hits home. I spent this weekend flying at a red star formation clinic in Waycross ga.
The primary issue is there are at least two airplanes in close proximity to one another. Any sort of distraction or an abrupt movement could result in a collision. Saying there are no issues if done correctly is like saying no landing will go badly if done correctly or aerobatics are perfectly safe if done correctly. It's a tautology.If done correctly, there are none. Like most anything else. But especially when learning things can go wrong. The red stars fly pretty tight. 3 feet spacing when everyone is carded. This hits home. I spent this weekend flying at a red star formation clinic in Waycross ga.
It's like anything else in flying. It is a skill that requires specific training to know how to do correctly and how to recover safely when someone makes a mistake. Compare it with stall/spin training. If you don't know or don't remember to handle the plane correctly, you'll pull back when you should push forward and crash. Formation just has a lot more moving parts than a stall, including coordination with the other pilots.Well they did meet up. Having never even contemplated it, what’s so dangerous about formation flying? I get that Blue Angel-style up-close stuff is a different thing, but say, two friends doing this in somewhat close formation. What are the big issues?
What's the total count of midair's? to be honest, I feel like that's pretty low. Why else are we having so many midair collisions?For homebuilts, 38% of the midair collisions involve formation flying.
These two airplanes weren't homebuilts, of course, but it illustrates the risk....
Ron Wanttaja
A provocative rhetorical question to be sure. Though I have my opinion on it, the answer is of little import to me. The one thing I do value and I'm willing to state publicly, is I support the right of recreationalists to kill themselves in the gratuitous pursuit of recreation.Not a lot of wiggle room. I just wonder if the risk is worth the reward for weekend warriors.
Oh that's easy, it ought to be self-evident: Class E pattern entry/sequencing kerfuffles/bufoonery. Which is my point though; we can't ban everything that causes death up in here. Otherwise all we'd have in aviation is a bunch of nancies who couldn't upset recover out of a spilled canada dry on their traytable in cruise. Kids need heroes, and heroes die.Why else are we having so many midair collisions?
Touché.@hindsight2020 wrote:
As someone who just wants to keep solo flight legal (I'd wouldn't be a pilot if it was outlawed)…
Let’s be honest, wouldn’t be a pilot? Wouldn’t be a LEGAL pilot? Just sayin…
A yak 62 Cessna?Google brought up an article about two planes, a Nanchang and a yak 52 Cessna. One fatality. God knows what the actual facts are, but there is a picture of a crashed cj6
that Was my point in not believing anything else in the article.A yak 62 Cessna?
Total EAB aircraft involved in midairs from 1998 through 2022 is 51. That's about 1% of all EAB accidents. Nineteen of the 51 aircraft were RVs, it's 2.7% of their total accidents. However, Cessna 172 midairs were 3.6% of their total accidents. Few formation accidents, though.What's the total count of midair's? to be honest, I feel like that's pretty low. Why else are we having so many midair collisions?
When I crashed my Starduster the news reported it as a "Cessna-type bi-wing".A yak 62 Cessna?
Thanks!Total EAB aircraft involved in midairs from 1998 through 2022 is 51. That's about 1% of all EAB accidents. Nineteen of the 51 aircraft were RVs, it's 2.7% of their total accidents. However, Cessna 172 midairs were 3.6% of their total accidents. Few formation accidents, though.
Eighteen of the 51 EAB aircraft were involved in homebuilt v. homebuilt midairs, so the actual number of homebuilt midair cases is in the low 40s.
Ron Wanttaja
You don't know what you don't know.Well they did meet up. Having never even contemplated it, what’s so dangerous about formation flying? I get that Blue Angel-style up-close stuff is a different thing, but say, two friends doing this in somewhat close formation. What are the big issues?
These guys did not just go out and try it. These were pilots who've been attending clinics and flying formation for years. Some can question the quality and value of that, but this wasn't a case of let's just try formation flying.You don't know what you don't know.
Formation flying is NOT something you just go out and try.
True. The Red Stars have very thorough, FAA approved procedures and they treat it very seriously.These guys did not just go out and try it. These were pilots who've been attending clinics and flying formation for years. Some can question the quality and value of that, but this wasn't a case of let's just try formation flying.
It's procedure to turn off all but one transponder in a formation flight. I'm not sure how well the adsb tracking apps cope with that.There’s an ADS-B track out there that disappears fairly closely to the apparent time and location of the midair. However, there isn’t a tail number matched to that ADS-B code, so it’s unverified whether it was one of them. That target seems to have been going southeast bound and skirting the SW corner of R-2515, over Rosamond Dry Lake when the signal dropped. Last known groundspeed and altitude was 129 at 7500’.
At the same time, there was a Siller S-64 opposite direction at ~3000, a Cirrus to their 3-4 o’clock descending through 5000, a C-130 that had been doing pattern work at PMD, then was nearly opposite direction and a few miles, 1-2 o’clock, climbing up to 7000 for some holding over WJF. Several other aircraft in that general block as well.
Tl;dr: the airspace was pretty busy.
The pilot who was killed was definitely experienced at formation flying and in that aircraft type. He was a part of “Tiger Squadron”, which is a group of RPA pilots who do even more advanced stuff. He’s about halfway down this page (Ryder Adams):These guys did not just go out and try it. These were pilots who've been attending clinics and flying formation for years. Some can question the quality and value of that, but this wasn't a case of let's just try formation flying.
Yeah, I rode in his backseat at what may have been his first All Red Star.The pilot who was killed was definitely experienced at formation flying and in that aircraft type. He was a part of “Tiger Squadron”, which is a group of RPA pilots who do even more advanced stuff. He’s about halfway down this page (Ryder Adams):
When I crashed my Starduster the news reported it as a "Cessna-type bi-wing".