Pan Pan

Declaring an emergency gets you first priority access the things ATC can do for you: They can clear traffic, give you vectors to the nearest airport, roll the rescue trucks if you're going to make it to an airport, or initiate search and rescue proceedings if you're going down somewhere. If you don't need any of those things, there may be no point wasting time with a mayday call if you're not already talking to ATC.

If you're not rushed a calm "Podunk approach, N12345 is declaring an emergency" or just describing the situation and what you need seems appropriate, but using the actual words "mayday" or "pan-pan" should guarantee they'll listen, especially if you only have time to say it once.
 
MauleSkinner said:
So of my seven engine failures/shutdowns, maybe one met those definitions, because for the others to degrade to a distress condition, I’d have to screw up.
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I guess so if they didn't affect the safety of the flight.
 
Salty said:
I admit I’m terrible at naming things. I’m a software developer by trade and I can write good code very quickly until I have to name a variable or function. DoStuff() DoMoreStuff()
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You've stolen some of my code I see.

I think every project I have has an EdDoesStuff() routine in it somewhere. Although over the years my routine names have gotten descriptive so when called from another I at least know what's going on. Now when I dig into something I wrote years ago (I have one project that has been running for 27 years) sometimes I'm lost.
 
My perspective is first, all MayDays are Emergency's but not all Emergency's are MayDays. Second, when in doubt declare and sort it out on the ground. In my mind the heat of the moment is the absolute wrong time to try and figure if a given situation rates making the call. At the very least communicate to ATC that something's not right and so at least they are aware that things might be headed South (disclaimer: 99% of my non-local flying is IFR so I'm talking to ATC pretty much all the time which influences my perspective).

As an observation, I've never heard anyone make a Pan-Pan call in the air in almost 40 years of flying. However, on the water I've heard it a number of times over my boat's radio in just the past few years so anecdotally it seems to get much more usage in the maritime environment to include by the USCG.
 
tsts4 said:
....However, on the water I've heard it a number of times over my boat's radio in just the past few years so anecdotally it seems to get much more usage in the maritime environment to include by the USCG.
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any idea what these issues were?
 
eman1200 said:
any idea what these issues were?
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The last one I heard was over a year ago and was a repeated call by the USCG for an overturned boat that was bobbing around posing a hazard to navigation
 
ateamer said:
One item on my emergency landing checklist is to activate the ELT and PLB. I keep the PLB in a side pocket and plan to clip it to my shirt before landing. Recognizing that it can come loose, I’m probably going to assemble a very basic survival kit in a cross-chest sling pack that can be thrown on in two seconds.
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That's good prep. But based on my extensive experience of one single event, I think there's about a 5% probability that you actually do any of the things you plan to do. The biggest takeaways I had were A) everything happens really FAST, and B) I was totally laser focused on handling the aircraft.

Not discouraging your preparations at all, just adding a note. Flying the plane is the most critical and demanding task in that situation, so don't be surprised if it drowns out everything else. As LEO you are intimately familiar with fight-or-flight instinct and tunnel vision. Same thing happens when the pilot fan stops turning and you get close to the ground, especially the first time.
 
ateamer said:
One item on my emergency landing checklist is to activate the ELT and PLB. I keep the PLB in a side pocket and plan to clip it to my shirt before landing. Recognizing that it can come loose, I’m probably going to assemble a very basic survival kit in a cross-chest sling pack that can be thrown on in two seconds. Contents will be the PLB, orange signal cloth, mirror, tourniquet and a couple compression dressings (Israeli bandages) - signal for help, stop bleeding.
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Given your background I'd bet you're more accustomed to emergency situations than most.
I'd like to think I'd have the presence of mind during an emergency to do things like this, but I think I'd probably end up spending 99% of my mental resources just trying to get the plane on the ground in 1 (or maybe 2 or 3), non-flaming pieces.
 
As an airport firefighter myself, among other things, we would prefer you ask for the help. We are here to assist and would rather be called and not needed than vice versa. We aren't going to bill you, at least at my airport, and aren't going to hassle you. We may ask for a few bits of information just for our internal report, mainly to show that contrary to popular belief we actually work.

The way we look at it, even if it is something minor, is it an indicator of a larger problem, or could lead to a larger problem. Something as simple as an alternator failure, from the cockpit, why did it fail? Is something else going on? Could it lead to an electrical fire, etc? At least we can be an extra set of eyes and ears on the problem, even if we can't get in the cockpit and help you fly it.
 
In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.

So if you are a VFR pilot in VMC conditions over a ceiling with 2 hours of fuel, your emergency probably does not require immediate action.

But, you still have an emergency situation that could result in the loss of life. When you contact ATC and declare the emergency, you will receive priority handling.

In the same situation, you call ATC and give them the same facts. ATC asks are you declaring and emergency. You advise “Negative”. At that point you are advising you don’t have an emergency.

You have to at least confess to yourself first.
 
MauleSkinner said:
So of my seven engine failures/shutdowns, maybe one met those definitions, because for the others to degrade to a distress condition, I’d have to screw up.
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Or the other engine quits.
 
tsts4 said:
As an observation, I've never heard anyone make a Pan-Pan call in the air in almost 40 years of flying. However, on the water I've heard it a number of times over my boat's radio in just the past few years so anecdotally it seems to get much more usage in the maritime environment to include by the USCG.
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Over twenty years ago, I heard someone make a pan pan call at my home (towered) field. (I don't remember what the problem was.)
 
Ed Haywood said:
...As LEO you are intimately familiar with fight-or-flight instinct and tunnel vision. Same thing happens when the pilot fan stops turning and you get close to the ground, especially the first time.
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I've noticed that the fan doesn't necessarily stop turning when there's a total power loss. That's why I mistook the windmilling for a partial power loss when I had my fuel-starvation incident. I still declared mayday (3x), because I was in the perfect setup for a safe forced landing at the towered field I had just taken off from, and I didn't want to take a chance of anything (e.g., traffic) screwing that up!

The prop didn't stop windmilling until I slowed down enough on the rollout to start turning onto an exit.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Sure…but if you’re concerned about engines quitting for no reason, you should probably just declare the emergency prior to takeoff.
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You don’t think there is a bigger chance of a second failure? Nothing common like fuel flow that could impact the other engine also? Also, theoretically you're gonna work the other engine harder than normal.
 
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Salty said:
You don’t think there is a bigger chance of a second failure? Nothing common like fuel flow that could impact the other engine also? Also, theoretically you're gonna work the other engine harder than normal.
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Not if the reason for the first one had nothing to do with those things.

Max continuous is max continuous, whether I’m running one that way or two, so no, I’m not theoretically working the other one harder.
 
Palmpilot said:
For me, declaring frees up mental bandwidth.
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Except for the part where ATC comes back and asks you for FOB and SOB when you're still most likely actively working to the point of saturation to deal with the emergency.

But yeah, still should do it!
kayoh190 said:
I understand that, but I do think it's an unusual thread title given that pilots in the States tend to talk about 'declaring an emergency' without any consideration to actually saying "Mayday" or "Pan Pan" to make the distinction to ATC. I opened the thread thinking we'd be discussing Pan Pan specifically, but it seems we're back to just talking about when to "declare". That's where I figured FT was coming from.
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Like others, I've never heard a pan-pan. I think the prevailing philosophy in the industry is that there isn't a downside to going full Mayday right off the bat, so just do it.

I do think that the example of a VFR pilot over the top of an undercast with plenty of fuel is a good situation where a pan-pan might be warranted. They're still flying and can be for a while, and just need to get some help to find the nearest VFR conditions.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Except for the part where ATC comes back and asks you for FOB and SOB when you're still most likely actively working to the point of saturation to deal with the emergency.
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I don't think you're obliged to answer the question in that situation, much less even pay attention to the question.
 
asicer said:
I don't think you're obliged to answer the question in that situation, much less even pay attention to the question.
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True, but they aren’t going to let you alone and it will be distracting.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Sure…but if you’re concerned about engines quitting for no reason, you should probably just declare the emergency prior to takeoff.
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I suppose you could do that, but do you think the tower would issue a takeoff clearence?
 
Salty said:
True, but they aren’t going to let you alone and it will be distracting.
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Somehow, I doubt they'll be that tenacious depending on what you declared (e.g. "Mayday, I'm on fire")
 
Last week OCEAN 68 lost an engine between Bermuda and Orlando. He declared a Pan Pan Pan. Ending up diverting to Miami. A couple American and united guys were relaying for him to Arinc. As he lost all HF coms too.
 
asicer said:
Somehow, I doubt they'll be that tenacious depending on what you declared (e.g. "Mayday, I'm on fire")
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If they weren’t tenacious to some degree there would be no point in telling them. They are not going to sit around and do nothing for very long without asking for an update. Even beyond their duties, it’s human nature. Eventually they are going to ask for status. Which will distract you even if you ignore them.
 
I declared Pan, pan, pan earlier this year. Not sure in the second why I chose pan instead of mayday. The situation turned into a fart in the wind in the end. The hiccup was my fault entirely. To point I’ve been mad at myself ever since. I’m glad I called though, as nothing bad happened, I was ok, bird was fine, firefighters weren’t upset it turned out fine nor was atc. Never had any paperwork or hassle from it.

I had my fuel tanks resealed, I preflighted the walk around like crazy, then got in the plane and foolishly did not run it on left then right on the ground. I departed FXE which is a bees nest compared to my normal flying and turned back west. Got out of over town and change tank message popped up. I flipped tanks and seconds later the engine surged, sputtering, surged, went quiet. I thought first thing to do was to undo what you just did, and so I reached down flipped tanks back and simultaneously called “pan pan pan returning to the field, rough running engine”. Before I could pitch for best glide or find a put down spot (wudda needed to be Everglades next to a busy freeway) it was running again but I was in mid turn back. I carried on, told atc things seemed better but I wanted to return still. I was able to stay high till I reached the field, confirming I was good to blow through FFL Charlie- absolutely. I realized likely what happened, and that quick flipping on the fuel pump would have cured all. But there was no friendly area to test the theory so I wanted to do it on the ground. As opposed to Everglades or metropolitan area- because if I was wrong and it wasn’t just air in the line- what if it didn’t re-light the second time or it was a prob w the fuel valve- so I carried on, landed w trucks waiting- taxied to the repair shop where we sorted it out n I was on my way again in short order. I thanked firemen n atc. Yes I could have should have prevented it, i deeply regret that part.

I could have sorted it out in my own a minute more on my own and likely carried on with not much ado. So I’ve questioned myself if I really needed to make that call. I’ve settled on in that moment I was right to do it, I was rusty as plane had been down for the fuel leak for some time, I was in area far different than what I’m used to, major maintenance had just been completed, etc. I did it without panick or even debate on doing it- I did it reflexively. So for the errors I made that day, which I did and I’m sure some will point out even though I’m confessing, I don’t regret the call I made.
 
Huckster79 said:
So I’ve questioned myself if I really needed to make that call. I’ve settled on in that moment I was right to do it, I was rusty as plane had been down for the fuel leak for some time, I was in area far different than what I’m used to, major maintenance had just been completed, etc.
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You made the right call. The issue was probably the recent maintenance, but you did not know that for sure.
 
Huckster79 said:
I could have sorted it out in my own a minute more on my own and likely carried on with not much ado. So I’ve questioned myself if I really needed to make that call. I’ve settled on in that moment I was right to do it, I was rusty as plane had been down for the fuel leak for some time, I was in area far different than what I’m used to, major maintenance had just been completed, etc. I did it without panick or even debate on doing it- I did it reflexively. So for the errors I made that day, which I did and I’m sure some will point out even though I’m confessing, I don’t regret the call I made.
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keen9 said:
You made the right call. The issue was probably the recent maintenance, but you did not know that for sure.
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Absolutely! Yeah, maybe it was what you thought it was. Or maybe some debris from the maintenance found its way further into the fuel system. Could it have come back. At least you had someone else's attention and they were watching to make sure you made it back and ready to assist. Otherwise if you kept it to yourself and the worse happened again, it might have been a while before anyone noticed you missing.
 
@Huckster79 you did not know what you know now. Don’t let your experience here make you second guess the next time something else happens.

My conjecture is that a learning experience like this can have a negative outcome - don’t “what if” your next “seeming emergency”, just spring-load the next one just like this.

What if you were wrong? How could you have known?

Quit thinking.
 
huckster, you did exactly what you should have done.

pan pan, mayday, and declaring an emergency is something I just discussed at a talk i gave to the local EAA chapter about my engine failure leaving dca a few months ago.

"declaring an emergency" is not recognized by ICAO. in the US controllers know what you mean and it does what you want. but, as I told the members, here in florida we sometimes deal with controllers in other countries. if you travel to the caribbean you may encounter controllers that will not understand "im declaring an emergency" they only understand IACO phraseoligy.

its really pretty basic, pan pan is an urgent condition that may not require assistance. a low fuel conditon starts out as a pan pan, and can turn into a mayday real quick.

so in hucksters case, he made the right call, he had a rough engine that should get him back to the airport. so he felt he didn't need assistance right then, but if it had quit again it would have quickly been a mayday.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
@Huckster79 you did not know what you know now. Don’t let your experience here make you second guess the next time something else happens.

My conjecture is that a learning experience like this can have a negative outcome - don’t “what if” your next “seeming emergency”, just spring-load the next one just like this.

What if you were wrong? How could you have known?

Quit thinking.
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Thank you, and I really couldn’t agree more. My frustration with myself was not running her on the ground on both tanks. So common sense and I didn’t do it. Once things happened I’ve decided I was correct in how I handled it. But was sharing my thinking on analyzing it- I think after my errors that caused it to happen I was happy w how I handled it and don’t regret declaring at all.

Maybe I shared my thought process in a muddy fashion.

I would say as suggestion to others- don’t hesitate! Just do it. I was happy I didn’t deliberate in the cockpit to do it- it just came out while addressing the issue via “autopilot reaction”. I was happy I never lost my cool just got focused and addressed it. There was nothing negative that came from declaring - nothing, and not doing it (had my hindsight guess been wrong on why it happened) I may have regretted not declaring. So if any doubt- declare… It was comforting knowing I had the whole systems attention and help in assuring it was a fart in the wind in the end. It was one of my greatest flying days with the benefit of hindsight w all I learned. Didn’t think that that day though :)

I forgot to add the cherry on top- after the morning and the delay it was evening when I got home. Went to land and gear horn started blaring- gear handle was down- it’s j bar mechanical gear, go around made sure handle was in good- try again- same result. Go around. I fully recycled gear a few times and said to myself “repeated go around have caused accidents- everything is indicating a sensor issue - you have trouble shot all u can, ur tired you’ve been flying all day- go land the plane- if gear folds ur home. It went off again- I took my headset off on short final as it was unbearably loud and all was fine - it was a sensor off.

But man I was glad to put her in the hangar that night :)
 
Huckster79 said:
I declared Pan, pan, pan earlier this year.

...

So I’ve questioned myself if I really needed to make that call.
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If, at any point, you felt like *maybe* you should make the call - Then you should have made the call, and you absolutely did the right thing.

I saw a similar thing in flowchart form that went something like this:

Should I declare an emergency?
|
V
Are you asking this question? -----> Yes
|
V
Is there be an emergency? -----> Yes
|
V
Might there be an emergency? -----> Yes
|
V
Still probably yes.
 
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