Any Career CFI's?

KE5BM

KE5BM

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Ross
23 years ago when I initially began my flight training, most professional pilots I came in contact with had been trained by some very experienced, older CFIs from day 1 to ATP. Many times on the flight line I was encouraged by the pros to enjoy the days of basic flight training. The academies back then seemed to be widely disliked by the pros. I stepped away from my training for about 20 years and when I returned to finish up my PPL, I was surprised to see the training world seemed to have been turned around. Amid all the pilot shortages of the 2010s it seemed every pro out there now had gone through one of the "factories" that had been so disliked before. It's so rare now, it seems to find an instructor who is content with instructing. Everyone is pushing for 1500 then *poof*! Even my finish-up instructor who I really liked and worked well with vanished to Brickyard shortly after crossing 1500. (I'm pretty sure he hit 1500 on an instrument training flight with me)

I've been in the military for 24 years next week and am seriously considering retiring in 2026. I've always loved aviation and would really like to pursue a professional career...but not necessarily the airlines. In fact, unlike most low-time, professional wannabes I have almost zero desire to be an airline pilot. I'd much prefer corporate or similar. Anyway, given my limited budget and limited time available I've been giving thought to taking on a different path. Part of my job with the Coast Guard entails a ton of instruction. After driving boats for 20 years, I'm expected to pass that experience and knowledge down to the people behind me. And I love it! I love watching junior people start with nothing and guide them to their first rescue. It's the best job I've ever had. That being said, is it a viable career choice in this day and age to simply be a CFI? I haven't yet asked my two local FBOs what they pay but that conversation will happen soon. I suspect it ain't much because they always seem to get graduates from Broadwater to come out and build to 1500.

Edit: Currently ASEL PPL, slowly building time and experience for Instrument and Commercial. About 115 hours on the books so far.
 
KE5BM said:
23 years ago when I initially began my flight training, most professional pilots I came in contact with had been trained by some very experienced, older CFIs from day 1 to ATP.
Click to expand...
You came in contact with a minority, I think.
 
Maybe...I was at Newport News Int'l (KPHF) back then with Rick Aviation. In 2001 they were Part 91, now they're a 141 school. The GA ramp was pretty small and shared space between Rick Aviation and Atlantic Aviation. There were many times I would walk out to the old-beater 172 parked next to a Gulfstream or Falcon. Several times, I'd strike up conversation with those pilots while we pre-flighted. One of those pilots, who was pretty young if my memory serves right specifically mentioned avoiding ATP Academy and the like. I was looking to apply to Embry-Riddle back then...before bills and basic adulting required me to keep a paying job.
 
It’s viable, but like anything you need to have realistic expectations.

May schools treat the CFI as a contract employee and issue 1099s without withholding taxes. Expect to work off a billable hours concept and get a percentage of the hourly instruction rate.

You may get a higher rate as a CFII, but fewer students. You may also get a higher rate teaching in more complex airplanes. Don’t expect 40hrs/week of billable time.

Over time, build a customer base and go independent so you keep 100% of the rate. Treat the whole thing as a business…marketing, accounting, professional development, etc., and you can do well enough.
 
KE5BM said:
23 years ago when I initially began my flight training, most professional pilots I came in contact with had been trained by some very experienced, older CFIs from day 1 to ATP. Many times on the flight line I was encouraged by the pros to enjoy the days of basic flight training. The academies back then seemed to be widely disliked by the pros. I stepped away from my training for about 20 years and when I returned to finish up my PPL, I was surprised to see the training world seemed to have been turned around. Amid all the pilot shortages of the 2010s it seemed every pro out there now had gone through one of the "factories" that had been so disliked before. It's so rare now, it seems to find an instructor who is content with instructing. Everyone is pushing for 1500 then *poof*! Even my finish-up instructor who I really liked and worked well with vanished to Brickyard shortly after crossing 1500. (I'm pretty sure he hit 1500 on an instrument training flight with me)

I've been in the military for 24 years next week and am seriously considering retiring in 2026. I've always loved aviation and would really like to pursue a professional career...but not necessarily the airlines. In fact, unlike most low-time, professional wannabes I have almost zero desire to be an airline pilot. I'd much prefer corporate or similar. Anyway, given my limited budget and limited time available I've been giving thought to taking on a different path. Part of my job with the Coast Guard entails a ton of instruction. After driving boats for 20 years, I'm expected to pass that experience and knowledge down to the people behind me. And I love it! I love watching junior people start with nothing and guide them to their first rescue. It's the best job I've ever had. That being said, is it a viable career choice in this day and age to simply be a CFI? I haven't yet asked my two local FBOs what they pay but that conversation will happen soon. I suspect it ain't much because they always seem to get graduates from Broadwater to come out and build to 1500.

Edit: Currently ASEL PPL, slowly building time and experience for Instrument and Commercial. About 115 hours on the books so far.
Click to expand...
You will come to the profession with basically no aviation experience. The positions that provide a career, meaning a good income with PTO and other benefits, aren’t going be available to you as a new CFI.

If you are looking for a part time gig paying about $35 an hour, those are available.
 
Yes. My son said it best… charge $100/hr dad. Who else they gonna hire?

The fact is, he’s right. BUT… if you’re gonna do that, you GOTTA do it well, and be available. Which if you’ve been in the CG for 24 yrs (THANK YOU!!), I’m preaching to the choir.

It IS rewarding. But you GOTTA charge what ya need to be happy, and if someone can’t afford it, it is what it is. That simple.
 
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I've said it before - being a CFI is my perfect retirement job. I don't need the money, but I do enjoy the teaching and flying several times a week. I am the oldest employee by far, but I have a fresh Class 2 medical and will keep on doing what I am doing.

If you will get a good retirement from the Coast Guard, maybe being a CFI will feel good to you as well. There is a lot of satisfaction seeing my former students do well - an F/A 18 pilot, a medevac helicopter pilot, a regional airline pilot, and even a coworker CFI that I trained for his private certificate. He gets trips in a PC12 pretty often.
 
My PPL DPE suggested that charging $200/hr was an option. I assume that is for a certain type of clientele. I mentioned it to him because I'm in a position where I make good enough money that becoming a CFI to build hours would be a massive pay cut, but building to 1500 would be expensive and time consuming on my spare time. I'm in my mid 40's trying to career change.

I'm sure there are "puddle jumping" careers you could do instead. Maybe some law enforcement work going after "puddle pirates". I assume you are over 6' tall, so I would assume a large jet would be more comfortable. I assume you drag knuckles, so a large cabin would be nice for that elbow room.
 
JSTootell said:
My PPL DPE suggested that charging $200/hr was an option. I assume that is for a certain type of clientele. I mentioned it to him because I'm in a position where I make good enough money that becoming a CFI to build hours would be a massive pay cut, but building to 1500 would be expensive and time consuming on my spare time. I'm in my mid 40's trying to career change.

I'm sure there are "puddle jumping" careers you could do instead. Maybe some law enforcement work going after "puddle pirates". I assume you are over 6' tall, so I would assume a large jet would be more comfortable. I assume you drag knuckles, so a large cabin would be nice for that elbow room.
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$500 an hour is an option if you can find people to pay it.
 
KE5BM said:
23 years ago when I initially began my flight training, most professional pilots I came in contact with had been trained by some very experienced, older CFIs from day 1 to ATP. Many times on the flight line I was encouraged by the pros to enjoy the days of basic flight training. The academies back then seemed to be widely disliked by the pros. I stepped away from my training for about 20 years and when I returned to finish up my PPL, I was surprised to see the training world seemed to have been turned around. Amid all the pilot shortages of the 2010s it seemed every pro out there now had gone through one of the "factories" that had been so disliked before. It's so rare now, it seems to find an instructor who is content with instructing. Everyone is pushing for 1500 then *poof*! Even my finish-up instructor who I really liked and worked well with vanished to Brickyard shortly after crossing 1500. (I'm pretty sure he hit 1500 on an instrument training flight with me)

I've been in the military for 24 years next week and am seriously considering retiring in 2026. I've always loved aviation and would really like to pursue a professional career...but not necessarily the airlines. In fact, unlike most low-time, professional wannabes I have almost zero desire to be an airline pilot. I'd much prefer corporate or similar. Anyway, given my limited budget and limited time available I've been giving thought to taking on a different path. Part of my job with the Coast Guard entails a ton of instruction. After driving boats for 20 years, I'm expected to pass that experience and knowledge down to the people behind me. And I love it! I love watching junior people start with nothing and guide them to their first rescue. It's the best job I've ever had. That being said, is it a viable career choice in this day and age to simply be a CFI? I haven't yet asked my two local FBOs what they pay but that conversation will happen soon. I suspect it ain't much because they always seem to get graduates from Broadwater to come out and build to 1500.

Edit: Currently ASEL PPL, slowly building time and experience for Instrument and Commercial. About 115 hours on the books so far.
Click to expand...
Tough to answer without knowing your family circumstances, but you should be able to combine your USCG retirement, VA benefits, Tricare, and CFI pay into a total package that will provide the necessary financial stability. I would find a job that covers the bills plus flight training expenses until you get your CFI. Start instructing part time until you build up a clientele base and then transition to full time. There will be some new tax complexities related to being an independent contractor so talk to a good accountant.

At my airline we certainly have our fair share of part 141 grads, but they are still in the minority. Part 141 has the advantages of a highly standardized curriculum and the disadvantage of inexperienced CFIs (typically). An experienced career part 61 CFI won’t get rich, but should be able to bring on $45-55,000/year. Perhaps more if you can pull down gigs instructing in newer more advanced aircraft (Cirrus, etc).
 
Another point of consideration: Realistically, how many hours a day can you give flight lessons, even if you have a full roster of clients? Lots of flight school instructors may hit the legal limit of 8 hours/day, back when I was full-time freelance CFI, a day with 3 lessons was about all I wanted to do (well, assuming all 3 were primary students, a x-country or other variety was a little different). Granted, I was 40-something at the time, and I know lots of young guns at the busy academies fly all day, but I have to wonder if the 7th lesson of the day is anywhere near the quality of their first or second. (Not at all saying don't do it, it can be a great gig.)
 
This guy seemed to be career CFI but has returned to another career and no longer does this type of instruction"

OBX Flight: Accelerated Instrument Flight Training

Instrument flight training, IFR flight training, Instrument training, Accelerated instrument flight training, Accelerated IFR,
obxflight.blogspot.com obxflight.blogspot.com
www.pilotsofamerica.com

Pirep for my accelerated IFR with Scott at OBXflight.com

I will give a brief Pirep about Scott and Lisa Best at OBXflight.com in North Carolina, I went out there the last week of November worked on and received my Instrument rating. I was lucky enough to fly just over 20 hours in actual IMC. One evening we couldn’t make it back into our home airport...
www.pilotsofamerica.com www.pilotsofamerica.com
https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/admpfr/meet_scott_best_of_obx_flight_the_very_best

There is a guy in FL that does accelerated PPL/IR/CPL. I'm not sure if he is traveling.

Find your own path.

I know of another CFI/CFII that does not do primary flight training but will do the rest.

$100/hr worth it for an ol timer. Unique real world perspective, know things the young bucks don't, and I think do a better job building confidence.
 
Last CFI gig I did was for an Army flying club. They assigned me 6 students, ALL on their first flight. So six first flights in a day. Next weekend, six second flights in a day. After about a month or so, I found myself, in the air, talking, with NO idea what I was teaching or who the student was. :D
 
JSTootell said:
My PPL DPE suggested that charging $200/hr was an option.
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Jason Miller on the Finer Points podcast discussed a couple of years ago that he charges $200 per hour for instruction. Yes, for Private as well. Now, he's in the Bay Area, so everything is more expensive, but still that's a good amount to be able to charge. Might even be higher now.
 
I paid $35/hr to my independent Part 61 CFII 22 years ago in the LA area, and that was pretty typical. If you're getting less than $70-$75/hr these days as a 1099 or self-employed CFI, you're grossly underselling yourself. You're responsible for teaching someone how not to kill themselves (and others) in an airplane.
 
I paid Wally $3/hr and he charged $7/hr "wet" for the '46 Taylorcraft.

My entire PPC, including the check ride, was about $400.

But then...........I'm an old fart!!.....and Wally Olson was a saint.

08-03-history-column_101.jpg
 
That ain’t a 46 T-crate… and if I only knew a fraction of what he forgot… ha!
 
It's the challenge we've wrestled with for many generations of pilots -- we lose most of our good instructors to other career paths. I'd not be so quick dismiss academy style flight training operations. One size doesn't fit all, and neither does the assumption that lower-time CFIs can't be knowledgeable, passionate, and flat out good at what they do.
 
There are plenty of experienced CFIs , but they don't do primary training in a raggedy 172. They have specialized on something like the Bonanza proficiency training, cirrus instructing or type certificate training.
Given the competition from the time builders it's hard to make a decent living on the primary instruction side.

What level of maritime credentials can you get with your CG experience ? You may find that you are better off driving some oil platform supply vessel for 14on/14off and fly for fun in your time off.
 
I just became a CFI earlier this month and plan to be a lifelong CFI. I've been coaching, training and mentoring people in boxing for almost 20 years and find it to be very fulfilling. The problem I have is that I haven't yet found a school that'll let me teach in their planes. I hope to be that old CFI that people remember for decades someday.
 
Though I sort of understand the pay differential for different levels of instruction, I charge the same hourly rate no matter if it's primary in a 172, commercial in an Arrow, or instrument-multi in a Baron; any hour of my instructional time is an hour of my time. (Not talking about specific niche gigs, which may command a higher rate).
 
The moral of the story is this: You gotta charge what ya need. You can’t complain you can’t make enough if you don’t even TRY to charge what ya need.

There’s a crazy shortage of flight instructors. Especially dedicated ones. I’m hear to tell ya, there’s a market for GOOD, RELIABLE, AVAILABLE, PROFESSIONAL flight instructors, even if they charge $100-200/hr.

You get fickle ONCE at that rate… it’s all over! Ha!

I know a private pilot (no instrument) who paid ONE MILLION for his Cirrus. Crashed it on a crosswind takeoff. While waiting for insurance, he bought ANOTHER to use in the meantime.

Know another who bought a Citation to get his multi… couldn’t even find a piston plane or instructor in which to train.

Can’t tell you how many guys showed up to the flight school I ran who said “never had the time or money… now I got both!”, who were COMPLETELY unimpressed by our clapped out Cessnas…. Don’t blame them.

Anyone here ever buy a $25 hamburger… and didn’t mind because it came on a table with a linen tablecloth?
 
KE5BM said:
23 years ago when I initially began my flight training, most professional pilots I came in contact with had been trained by some very experienced, older CFIs from day 1 to ATP. Many times on the flight line I was encouraged by the pros to enjoy the days of basic flight training. The academies back then seemed to be widely disliked by the pros. I stepped away from my training for about 20 years and when I returned to finish up my PPL, I was surprised to see the training world seemed to have been turned around. Amid all the pilot shortages of the 2010s it seemed every pro out there now had gone through one of the "factories" that had been so disliked before. It's so rare now, it seems to find an instructor who is content with instructing. Everyone is pushing for 1500 then *poof*! Even my finish-up instructor who I really liked and worked well with vanished to Brickyard shortly after crossing 1500. (I'm pretty sure he hit 1500 on an instrument training flight with me)

I've been in the military for 24 years next week and am seriously considering retiring in 2026. I've always loved aviation and would really like to pursue a professional career...but not necessarily the airlines. In fact, unlike most low-time, professional wannabes I have almost zero desire to be an airline pilot. I'd much prefer corporate or similar. Anyway, given my limited budget and limited time available I've been giving thought to taking on a different path. Part of my job with the Coast Guard entails a ton of instruction. After driving boats for 20 years, I'm expected to pass that experience and knowledge down to the people behind me. And I love it! I love watching junior people start with nothing and guide them to their first rescue. It's the best job I've ever had. That being said, is it a viable career choice in this day and age to simply be a CFI? I haven't yet asked my two local FBOs what they pay but that conversation will happen soon. I suspect it ain't much because they always seem to get graduates from Broadwater to come out and build to 1500.

Edit: Currently ASEL PPL, slowly building time and experience for Instrument and Commercial. About 115 hours on the books so far.
Click to expand...
**TLDR warning**

BLUF: no, CFI work in civilian side doesn't pay crap in the aggregate, as a median. I've tried, can't make the numbers work.

If you're still reading.....(long)

So I resemble the remark in more ways than one. 18 years and counting for me, except I've been an actual career flight instructor in the usaf for 13 of those. I've wrestled with this question since at least 2014. And not to throw a blanket over, but I only know one guy who has made a go of it after his AD retirement, living in Vegas where he presumably gets the kind of volume to make that business float (pun intended). He does everything though, both rotary and fixed wing.

I push back on the comment about retirement +VA being enough. It's not for me as a household with dependents. Military retirements are small when you account for the actual amount of your gross entitlements being used to calculate the benefit. It's a big shave. My boomer parents on the same creditable factor (2.5) per year have way higher pensions on way lower nominal yearly income as state civil servants, than I ever will as a 20 and out mil guy. They also could work to 30 in desk occupations with near-zero medical threat; the military largely won't let me, as a pilot who wishes to fly anyways. As to the VA, I won't go more into my rant about that grift, BL it's not going to be a part of my retirement portfolio. BL, I'll be forced into some form of civilian employment after the military, and I don't really look forward to it because my lack of heart for the whole affair kinda shows.

I tried to reach out years ago to my buddy but he seemed reticent to speak about his flight instruction business, fair enough. I couldn't make the math work, the paycut is too drastic for what I need to accomplish. Every time I make some market research on opening up some upset training outfit or the like, it's just a non-starter in most markets and for what I'm trying to accomplish (bridge to age 57).

To say nothing of the fact I also need to be sensitive to my wife's career desires after my mil retirement. I have to start ceding some geographic control to her as I sunset my career and she throttles up hers (we're 8 years apart, it matters in ways I never realized it would). So for someone in my situation, the airlines are the only obvious conduit on the money front (if flying). Part 91 doesn't really offer much of an income reprieve. Absent very few exceptions, those jobs don't offer any qualitative relief on the homesteading front or income stability vis a vis union membership airline employment. In my personal circumstances 7/7s and 14/14s are also worse (my preference) than sitting reserve as an in-domicile guy at the airlines (narrowbody to provide the most likely scenario for the median. WB reserves is a different construct entirely).

All that said, like you, I've never really wanted to do it anyways either. But just presenting the economic argument objectively, there's just no money in CFIing full time, as a median. The guy above who joked about some flex schedule pedestrian job for more money and fly on the side for fun wasn't really far off the mark if I'm being honest.

A long time ago when I had to decide whether to pursue an academia career or the military full time, I managed to find a position at a southern university that offered the dual role of chief flight instructor and assistant professor on a full time basis. The salary was a non-starter, given the added work non-flight instructor professors didn't have to contend with for the same pay. But even that aside, it was just getting lapped by the all-around package of compensation and healthcare the full time military afforded me. Not even close. The full time military was the right choice for me. Looking at those university jobs after retirement could be an option for ya in the 141 side if the location of the college program is palatable (it no longer is for me).

Another thing I've thought about is going for large 135 outfits like ameriflight and the like, and fulfilling local roles as adminstrator and part-time pilot, if the salaries and schedules could hover in the low six figure. That would be a more palatable blend for me, as it could allow me to remain in a flight training capacity, without the larger paycut of a la carte piston primary flight training, or the vampire/carcinogenic schedules of line flying. Not having to deal with 121 SIC is just a twofer for me, but I recognize I'm an odd duck as far as the reasons that motivate/demotivate me to fly for money, vis a vis most.

Apologies for the novel, the case study just struck me because I resemble the remark very closely. Good luck on what you decide. My username checks, so consider that when you take my advice on anything. :rofl:
 
hindsight2020 said:
**TLDR warning**

BLUF: no, CFI work in civilian side doesn't pay crap in the aggregate, as a median. I've tried, can't make the numbers work.

If you're still reading.....(long)

So I resemble the remark in more ways than one. 18 years and counting for me, except I've been an actual career flight instructor in the usaf for 13 of those. I've wrestled with this question since at least 2014. And not to throw a blanket over, but I only know one guy who has made a go of it after his AD retirement, living in Vegas where he presumably gets the kind of volume to make that business float (pun intended). He does everything though, both rotary and fixed wing.

I push back on the comment about retirement +VA being enough. It's not for me as a household with dependents. Military retirements are small when you account for the actual amount of your gross entitlements being used to calculate the benefit. It's a big shave. My boomer parents on the same creditable factor (2.5) per year have way higher pensions on way lower nominal yearly income as state civil servants, than I ever will as a 20 and out mil guy. They also could work to 30 in desk occupations with near-zero medical threat; the military largely won't let me, as a pilot who wishes to fly anyways. As to the VA, I won't go more into my rant about that grift, BL it's not going to be a part of my retirement portfolio. BL, I'll be forced into some form of civilian employment after the military, and I don't really look forward to it because my lack of heart for the whole affair kinda shows.

I tried to reach out years ago to my buddy but he seemed reticent to speak about his flight instruction business, fair enough. I couldn't make the math work, the paycut is too drastic for what I need to accomplish. Every time I make some market research on opening up some upset training outfit or the like, it's just a non-starter in most markets and for what I'm trying to accomplish (bridge to age 57).

To say nothing of the fact I also need to be sensitive to my wife's career desires after my mil retirement. I have to start ceding some geographic control to her as I sunset my career and she throttles up hers (we're 8 years apart, it matters in ways I never realized it would). So for someone in my situation, the airlines are the only obvious conduit on the money front (if flying). Part 91 doesn't really offer much of an income reprieve. Absent very few exceptions, those jobs don't offer any qualitative relief on the homesteading front or income stability vis a vis union membership airline employment. In my personal circumstances 7/7s and 14/14s are also worse (my preference) than sitting reserve as an in-domicile guy at the airlines (narrowbody to provide the most likely scenario for the median. WB reserves is a different construct entirely).

All that said, like you, I've never really wanted to do it anyways either. But just presenting the economic argument objectively, there's just no money in CFIing full time, as a median. The guy above who joked about some flex schedule pedestrian job for more money and fly on the side for fun wasn't really far off the mark if I'm being honest.

A long time ago when I had to decide whether to pursue an academia career or the military full time, I managed to find a position at a southern university that offered the dual role of chief flight instructor and assistant professor on a full time basis. The salary was a non-starter, given the added work non-flight instructor professors didn't have to contend with for the same pay. But even that aside, it was just getting lapped by the all-around package of compensation and healthcare the full time military afforded me. Not even close. The full time military was the right choice for me. Looking at those university jobs after retirement could be an option for ya in the 141 side if the location of the college program is palatable (it no longer is for me).

Another thing I've thought about is going for large 135 outfits like ameriflight and the like, and fulfilling local roles as adminstrator and part-time pilot, if the salaries and schedules could hover in the low six figure. That would be a more palatable blend for me, as it could allow me to remain in a flight training capacity, without the larger paycut of a la carte piston primary flight training, or the vampire/carcinogenic schedules of line flying. Not having to deal with 121 SIC is just a twofer for me, but I recognize I'm an odd duck as far as the reasons that motivate/demotivate me to fly for money, vis a vis most.

Apologies for the novel, the case study just struck me because I resemble the remark very closely. Good luck on what you decide. My username checks, so consider that when you take my advice on anything. :rofl:
Click to expand...

I can't argue your points - financially, completely valid.

Ever think about working at a 142 like FSI or CAE? The money is substantially better than piston instruction (depends on which program and center of course), schedule and benefits aren't bad and heaven forbid you ever lose it, but you don't need a medical certificate.
 
Tools said:
The moral of the story is this: You gotta charge what ya need. You can’t complain you can’t make enough if you don’t even TRY to charge what ya need.

There’s a crazy shortage of flight instructors. Especially dedicated ones. I’m hear to tell ya, there’s a market for GOOD, RELIABLE, AVAILABLE, PROFESSIONAL flight instructors, even if they charge $100-200/hr.

You get fickle ONCE at that rate… it’s all over! Ha!

I know a private pilot (no instrument) who paid ONE MILLION for his Cirrus. Crashed it on a crosswind takeoff. While waiting for insurance, he bought ANOTHER to use in the meantime.

Know another who bought a Citation to get his multi… couldn’t even find a piston plane or instructor in which to train.

Can’t tell you how many guys showed up to the flight school I ran who said “never had the time or money… now I got both!”, who were COMPLETELY unimpressed by our clapped out Cessnas…. Don’t blame them.

Anyone here ever buy a $25 hamburger… and didn’t mind because it came on a table with a linen tablecloth?
Click to expand...

Far from the worst 172s I've ever instructed in, too
:lol:
 
weilke said:
What level of maritime credentials can you get with your CG experience ? You may find that you are better off driving some oil platform supply vessel for 14on/14off and fly for fun in your time off.
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You're not kidding. @Fearless Tower comes to mind. From my understanding he tried a small go at the fly for money thing and though I won't put words in his mouth, it's my understanding he went back to teaching boat driving for the USN + Naval Reserves (flippin' black shoes i tell ya... I keed I keed). Certainly hasn't done badly for himself, i mean the guy drives a Beech 18 around for "piston recreation" ffs. From where I sit, your point is 100% validated on that anecdote alone.

Ryan F. said:
I can't argue your points - financially, completely valid.

Ever think about working at a 142 like FSI or CAE? The money is substantially better than piston instruction (depends on which program and center of course), schedule and benefits aren't bad and heaven forbid you ever lose it, but you don't need a medical certificate.
Click to expand...
yeah, I've thought about it. The schedules being friendly is a bit debatable (lots of vampire box times and de facto seniority games), but I haven't looked into it formally though. I don't think I would find full time simulator instruction fulfilling. I have that civilian option already available to me in the DOD side, and part of my duties while I was an evaluator in my former duty station involved providing instruction and formal (aka FAA recognized) evaluation (we call them Form 8s) in the simulator. So I do know what's involved in that and don't mind it in moderation, but I don't think I could do the sim role full-time and stay sane.

You dispensed with the punchline though, that environment is ultimately wage-driven by the "lost medical" cohort, so that caps the "waterline" compensation accordingly, similar to the dynamics of piston flight training being diluted by time builders. I think in honesty, if I were to pursue that kind of work, there would have to be a companion opportunity to provide in-aircraft flight instruction in the turboprop/fan in question, with additional compensation for the capability of being able to medically PIC as an instructor. Such an opportunity would certainly perk my ears. Which is why I mentioned earlier the role of admin/management pilot with the 135s, a role that at least in theory, affords the ability to stay in the aircraft as a mentor/evaluator, while minimizing some of the pay issues of time builders diluting the educational work space, if you'll indulge me a euphemism or two.



Sierra_Hotel said:
Motion to change hindsight's name to foresight
Click to expand...
You def don't want to take that bet. Everytime I have a glimmer of an epiphany, life does me like Jesus on a speed boat. Trust me bro, my username will forever, check. :biggrin:
 
I had this discussion with my son who just got his PPL. I flew with him for about 15 hours of his time and he also flew with a "2nd career" instructor to get finished up (as I sold my SEL plane and I'm too big to fit in a 150!) Just before his PPL, he flew with an instructor who is a retired airline pilot.

Would you imagine that all three of us have different teaching styles? My son surmised that what he learned from his "2nd career" instructor was how to fly the plane. What he learned from me and the retired airline pilot, was how to be a "pilot" though he enjoyed flying with everybody.

There is a great deal of wisdom that comes with both types of instructors. I have zero inclination to go out and do stalls and turns about a point but those are required maneuvers to be practiced. There are folks out there that are much more proficient than I am at theat type of stuff.

You want to dig into hard core aerodynamics and have a good Correlation (see what I did there "RUAC") or deep into the thought processes of flying cross country CONUS/OCONUS, then I am your guy. You want me to talk you about how the ACS and the DPE want you to approach a power off stall? There are folks that are better at that than I am.

Having said that, there real demands for both types of instructors. The BTDT instructors though, tend to charge a premium.
 
Tools said:
Can’t tell you how many guys showed up to the flight school I ran who said “never had the time or money… now I got both!”, who were COMPLETELY unimpressed by our clapped out Cessnas…. Don’t blame them.
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Yet the market for the chi-chi flight school that teaches in new S20s or DA40s appears to be quite small and limited to a few metro areas where you have a good supply of customers who are not cost sensitive.
 
yeah it's hopium. The market is captured by transactional time builders who don't want anything to do with spending time in a hot noisy lawnmower a second longer than they have to, on their way to their FMS-punching job that promises 300K/yr without the academic rigor (aptitude for which most lack) of rocket surgery school. When the industry kicks back, they scatter. Rinse/repeat. Hence the volatility.

There's no sustainable demand for training a recreational market customer base at those prices. Opening up a tennis school out of the back of my beater Hyundai would probably net me a more sustainable customer base, and this is coming from an OCONUS working class family guy who's never picked up a tennis racket in my life, probably swing it like we do back home on anything with a handle.
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I agree with the FSI comment. I’ve realized that my normal gig makes it viable to be VERY VERY CHOOSY as to whom I train. And that makes it pleasurable AND is financially just positive of a wash.
 
Doc makes a good point, that ain’t unique to CFIing, gotta be choosy. I know I’ve certainly let a bunch of would be house buyers just move along… regardless of the offer.

Go do this for a living, it’s crucial.
 
I've been a full time CFI for the last three years. I've had many different careers in my life but always stayed active in aviation. I've spent approximately 13 years of my life full time in aviation. I was a CFI when I was 18 in 1975. I've flown charter, corporate, forest service, owned two different flight operations (FBO's).

Because I've always managed to make a fairly decent income I've been able to rathole enough money to now live comfortably. I've instructed approximately 2,200 hours in the last three years. I charge $75.00 an hour so it hasn't been terrible income. I instruct because I really enjoy teaching & passing on my experience to new learners. With my retirement income & instruction income I've managed to purchase my Husky which provides me a lot of pleasure.

Being an instructor allows me to fly some really great aircraft. I'm not an MEI but can instruct in about any single. I enjoy instructing in RV's, Cirrus, & Bonanzas the most. I'm also an experienced glider instructor.

At 68 years of age I plan to continue instructing until I can longer get a medical or tire of instructing. Since I've stayed active as an instructor all these years I consider myself a career CFI.
 
Great insight from everyone...thank you. I'm giving myself the added restriction of really wanting to continue living where I am after I retire. Never would've thought a guy from south Texas would feel at home in Massachusetts (politics aside). By my best estimations, to continue living exactly as I do today upon retirement I'd need to bring in the equivalent of $47/hr. at 40 hours a week. I doubt I could get that from my local FBO. I doubt I could afford to do what Trent (flywithtrent) has done for instructing in order to get to his 1500. All-in-all I'd really like the flying thing to work out in such a way that someone is paying me to do it. I may be relegated to part time CFI in the future. Maybe I should inquire with the Cirrus school up in Plymouth. :ihih: I can use my GI Bill at a nearby 141 school and draw a little pay and housing allowance to get a few more certificates, maybe.

@4RNB OBXFlight when it still existed was based at the airport 5 minutes from my house when I was at my first Coast Guard duty station. I really should have picked up with them in 2005. I had the time...money, however would have been a significant challenge on E3/E4 pay and a wife. I regret that I didn't take that opportunity.

@hindsight2020 That perspective is what the realist in me is thinking. But then, I've never been comfortable with significant changes in financial security...especially being the only income for the house. I've been really fortunate to not experience a ton of injuries aside from some beating and banging around in the boats that a routine visit to a chiropractor keeps in check. So I'm not certain I'll get much out of the VA. Although our local transition guy seems REALLY good at finding service-incurred issues. I start TAPS in a week so we'll see what they say.

@weilke I'll be applying for my 200 ton Master soon. I've been putting it off for no real reason other than laziness. The paperwork, even for us is a bear. I'd love to leave the pier behind for good once I retire but a man with a particular set of skills seems destined to keep working in the same field. I've got a buddy that runs a charter and delivery company in Mobile, AL. Maybe he could outsource me for movements in and around New England! :lol:

@Tools Sounds like the world could use more folks like you.
 
saddletramp said:
At 68 years of age I plan to continue instructing until I can longer get a medical or tire of instructing. Since I've stayed active as an instructor all these years I consider myself a career CFI.
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I'll be 79 this month. I am not a "career" CFI, but I have worked at this flight training facility longer than any other job I ever had, more than 14 years. Like you, I hope to keep instructing as long as I can pass the medical (most recent one last month).
 
DCR said:
Excuse my ignorance, but, these numbers can't include aircraft rental right? Or do they? If they don't include aircraft I'm just curious - where do your students rent the plane from?
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Probably their students either have their own plane or they have a similar arrangement to how I did my private - the FBO on the field actually owned and rented a plane out, so I rented the plane from them and contracted with my CFI independently.
 
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