Instrument Approach Gear and Flap Sequence - A survey

midlifeflyer

midlifeflyer

Touchdown! Greaser!
PoA Supporter
Joined
May 25, 2006
Messages
18,389
Location
KTTA, North Carolina
Display Name
Display name:
Fly
This came up during a lesson. It's retractable gear specific but not really aircraft specific.

For those of you who do use approach flaps to fly an instrument approach , what is your gear/flap sequence and does it affect your FAS (final approach segment) airspeed?

These are just examples to illustrate what I'm asking:
  • At target FAS airspeed clean in A. Gear first then flaps upon intercepting the glideslope. No airspeed change.
  • Gear down at target FAS airspeed in A . Flaps down upon intercepting the glideslope. No airspeed change.
  • Higher than target FAS. Gear upon intercepting the glideslope with no airspeed change. Flaps added after stabilizing to reduce to target airspeed.
There may be as many answers to this as pilots
:)




1723922126699.png
 
Gear should be down, GUMP and all before you intersect the approach or reach the IAF.

When you hit the IAF, you begin your decent to the FAF, to your MDA or DA, and then land or go missed.

When you begin your decent, then you set your final power setting, make sure you're below V fe, and put in your approach flaps.

Edit - depending on how far away your FAF is and how much you need to defend, you may or may not elect to throttle back and drop flaps until FAF. But I’d have everything else configured.
 
Last edited:
WDD said:
Gear should be down, GUMP and all before you intersect the approach or reach the IAF.

When you hit the IAF, you begin your decent to the FAF, to your MDA or DA, and then land or go missed.….
Click to expand...

Say whaaaat?


Mark, for me I have a power setting that at straight and level puts me in gear speed. I make sure I’m at that speed like a mile before the FAF. I configure for landing at the FAF. Gear down, one notch of flaps, prop forward, pull back power just a touch then trim for 90, then take a nap until my minimums warning starts beeping. Not sure if that answers your question.
 
Slowing most of the way through…gear down at the FAF, flaps when I get to those speeds to help slow down.
 
Must be the approaches around here are different. Decent begins at the IAF, so you need everything done at that time including flap settings.

Regardless, have everything set as early as possible to keep ahead of things.


IMG_0271.jpeg
 
WDD said:
Must be the approaches around here are different. Decent begins at the IAF, so you need everything done at that time including flap settings.
Click to expand...

Can u show me one or two?
 
For my plane, I do 120-130kts up til 3miles before the FAF then I pull power back to stabilize for 110kt or so.

1mile from intersecting the FAF I put flaps 50%, and adjust power, then at FAF when pitching down, maintain 100-105kts. Putting flaps gotta retrim the plane.

If I am visual before the MDA and still above 500-600AGL, I put 100% flaps and retrim, re'adjust power and maintain 80-83kts on final and aim for 75kts while crossing the threshold.

For a circling approach at MDA, I deploy 100% flaps.

If I know I will break out at minimums, I'll land with 50% flaps as to not screw up my final.
 
eman1200 said:
Can u show me one or two?
Click to expand...
Here’s another favorite.

Is the IAF to FAF a “real decent”? Semantics maybe. You do have to loose altitude while holding tight to a lateral course. And the decent has to be controlled and consistent. So for me, I have everything configured and set already the IAF.



IMG_0272.jpeg
 
WDD said:
Must be the approaches around here are different. Decent begins at the IAF, so you need everything done at that time including flap settings.

Regardless, have everything set as early as possible to keep ahead of things.


View attachment 132546
Click to expand...
@WDD, your terminology is incorrect, and it affects the discussion (it's not just semantics).

On the two example approaches, you have an IF/IAF. OOUDT here. The fix serves as an IAF when you cross it the first time to enter the hold. Once the hold is completed, or if you do not perform the hold, the fix is an IF (no "A"), as it starts the intermediate segment.

The intermediate segment is specifically designed (in the TERPS) to all for a shallower descent than either the final segment OR the initial segments (if they happen to be steep, though most aren't), for the express reason of allowing aircraft to configure for landing (get flaps and gear out, power set, and speed set).

In this example, you only have to lose 100 feet in 6 nm. Not a big trick. In your other example, it's only 700 feet in 6 nm. Also should not be a problem.

I DO recommend that pilots study and consider such scenarios - mostly to determine if they need to be on speed earlier so that they can descend when necessary and not have to slow down at the same time. But in almost all cases, I teach (and fly) that you get the gear and flaps within the intermediate segment - meaning after the IF, before the FAF. Doing it prior is typically not necessary except in some extreme cases.

@midlifeflyer , you know as well as I do that a lot of this depends on the specific aircraft and the specific speeds for the flaps and gear. If the flap speed (for the first setting at least) is high enough, or higher than the gear speed, flaps should probably come out first and can effectively be used to get the speed down for gear deployment anyway. This method is effective in various Beech products, for example - the intermediate segment is flow with approach flaps until glideslope intercept, when the gear comes down.

When I was teaching in the Seminole, I had the students grab the flaps and the gear almost simultaneously at glideslope intercept - since the flaps are manual, they were very quick to extend.
 
Appreciate your POV. But I’ll keep to the practice I was taught and still makes sense to have gear down and GUMP completed prior to IAF (and after any procedure turns) before heading to the FAF. Getting everything set up before hand leaves fewer tasks and allows more focus on flying the needles.

Flaps? I’ll give you that it could depend on the decent needed to get to FAF altitude.
 
WDD said:
Appreciate your POV. But I’ll keep to the practice I was taught and still makes sense to have gear down and GUMP completed prior to IAF (and after any procedure turns) before heading to the FAF. Getting everything set up before hand leaves fewer tasks and allows more focus on flying the needles.

Flaps? I’ll give you that it could depend on the decent needed to get to FAF altitude.
Click to expand...

Your choice, of course. But are you saying that on even a standard T approach like this one, you would have the gear down prior to the IAF (BEPLE or DERPE) and fly it like that for all 10 nm to the FAF? That seems unnecessary.

One major benefit of the gear at the FAF is that in many singles and twins, putting the gear down results in a approximately 500 fpm descent, with no power changes, allowing the plane to easily stay on glideslope.

1723934451772.png
 
10 Flaps after IAF and maintain 120kt (130 Vlo). Gear down at FAF, power back and maintain 110 on final segment. Depending on breakout and runway length, 25 flaps at 200' for landing vs just leave at 10.
 
Yep - gear down early. If something isn’t right, have time to do something about it. Also have more time to check that gear is down three times.

Not the only way to do it safely. Maybe conservative.

And my experience is with a club plane, and almost all my flying is fixed gear.

But yeah, even with no gear, GUMP it before the IAF (but after any procedure turns). Flaps depends on how much you need to drop to FAF.
 
250 kias below 10,000’.
210 kias at 12-14 dme.
Flaps 5.
1-2 mi from FAF 170-180 kias, Landing Gear Down, then Flaps 15, begin slowing for landing flaps.
Flaps 30 at GS intercept, or around 1600’ RA if VMC.
Slow to Vref plus wind factor.
Stable approach by 1000’ AAE.
Put her in the touchdown zone, taxi off, gas her up, go again.
 
Completely different for each aircraft, and possibly for different airports.
Don’t want to drag along at 80kts 10mi out at Dallas Love, so no flaps, no gear way out there in a slow plane.
In actual (in imc) in a jet, many call for some flaps 10-15 mi out then gear, landing flaps & vref at faf,
 
The technique I use is gear down at glide slope capture. I’m configured for power and speed beforehand. Putting the gear down gives an almost perfect glide slope capture without futzing with the throttle.
 
WDD said:
Must be the approaches around here are different. Decent begins at the IAF,
Click to expand...
Or somewhere between the IAF and the FAF, where many will intercept the glideslope well before the FAF. But I thought the picture illustrated what I was trying to get at, and it seems it has.

And I was expecting multiple answers on a technique question. It’s exactly why i asked.
 
WDD said:
Appreciate your POV. But I’ll keep to the practice I was taught and still makes sense to have gear down and GUMP completed prior to IAF (and after any procedure turns) before heading to the FAF. Getting everything set up before hand leaves fewer tasks and allows more focus on flying the needles.
Click to expand...
you are contradicting yourself in that phrase. Procedure turns begin at the IAF. So if you are waiting until after the PT, you are not configuring at the IAF.
 
RussR said:
@midlifeflyer , you know as well as I do that a lot of this depends on the specific aircraft and the specific speeds for the flaps and gear
Click to expand...
True, but less than one might think. I don’t fly twins or jets but my technique in retractable piston singles is essentially the same across makes and models with only one variation.

I also posted this on MooneySpace and am getting the same variety of answers.
 
Last edited:
midlifeflyer said:
you are contradicting yourself in that phrase. Procedure turns begin at the IAF. So if you are waiting until after the PT, you are not configuring at the IAF.
Click to expand...
You pass through the IAF after the procedure turn as well after the procedure turn (if you have one). It’s that last IAF pass over to which I am referring. But you know that already.
 
WDD said:
You pass through the IAF after the procedure turn as well after the procedure turn (if you have one). It’s that last IAF pass over to which I am referring. But you know that already.
Click to expand...
I think you missed @RussR's point about terminology. When you pass through the fix the second time, it is not the IAF. It is the IF. On a T-approach when you use one of the NoPT Ts IAFS, the fix in the middle where you make the turn inbound is not the IAF, it is the IF. When you are approaching from the appropriate direction and ATC gives you the fix and "cleared straight in," the fix is not the IAF, it is the IF.

You might think those distinctions and the different terminology applicable to different phases of an approach - initial, intermediate, and final approach segments - are operationally unimportant, but if you do, I'll have to disagree, especially after watching pilots bust approaches because of the difference.
 
WDD said:
Here’s another favorite.

Is the IAF to FAF a “real decent”? Semantics maybe. You do have to loose altitude while holding tight to a lateral course. And the decent has to be controlled and consistent. So for me, I have everything configured and set already the IAF.



View attachment 132547
Click to expand...
I see no reason to configure at the IAF on this approach. Any descent >350 fpm from the IAF to FAF allows 2 nm prior to the FAF for configuration.
 
Last edited:
WDD said:
Yep - gear down early. If something isn’t right, have time to do something about it. Also have more time to check that gear is down three times.

Not the only way to do it safely. Maybe conservative.

And my experience is with a club plane, and almost all my flying is fixed gear.

But yeah, even with no gear, GUMP it before the IAF (but after any procedure turns). Flaps depends on how much you need to drop to FAF If you extend gear and don’t get a down confirmation, troubleshooting during a less critical phase of flight is the most conservative and safest way to do it. Legally discontinue the approach and ATC will send you where you can resolve.
Click to expand...
The most conservative and safest option to troubleshoot a landing gear issue is to legally discontinue the approach and take advantage of a critical phase of flight.

If you perform landing ck list 2 nm prior to FAF @ 120 knots, you have 1 minute to perform the approach checklist. That’s a lot of time to flip 2 switches, move 4 levers and look at 3 light bulbs.

The second gear check is at or prior to MAP when you extend more flaps for landing.
 
Last edited:
WDD said:
almost all my flying is fixed gear.
Click to expand...
Exactly the point of my survey asking about deploying gear and flaps. If you've browsed the answers, you may have counted (I haven't yet) about a half dozen different techniques for dealing with both. And that doesn't include the folks who don't use flaps at all on the approach until breaking out.
 
I find that in my plane, the first notch of flaps (15*) tends to stabilize it. If it's low IFR, I'll have those in by the time I intercept the final approach course. That limits me to 109 knots, which is fine if it's a challenging approach or it's rough. I would say that's my standard procedure....100 knots on final, 15* flaps, then gear down at FAF or whenever I intercept the glideslope. I can do 90 if I need to for cat A mins, but the plane feels better at 100, and I haven't been in a situation where I needed it yet.

If I'm in a hurry, I'll fly clean to a couple miles before the FAF. The lance slows down easily. Gear speed is 130, so I can keep my speed up even after the FAF with no flaps. Gear down always at the FAF; gear down to go down. I'll only push like this if I expect to break out with plenty of time to get slowed down. This is the "keep your speed up for the (P-51/737/CRJ/TBM) behind you" procedure.
 
Clip4 said:
If you extend gear and don’t get a down confirmation, troubleshooting during a less critical phase of flight is the most conservative and safest way to do it.
Click to expand...
Agreed. And if you’re continuing an approach while troubleshooting, you’re not in a less critical phase of flight.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Agreed. And if you’re continuing an approach while troubleshooting, you’re not in a less critical phase of flight.
Click to expand...
Off-topic but it reminds me. I did a club checkout for a CFII. He said he needed vector practice as an an instructor so could he vector himself for the ILS. Sure. Does a great job. Then gives himself an intercept, switches to green needles, and discovers we have a glideslope but no localizer (turned out it was real - after landing, we reported it for NOTAM dissemination).

Anyway, without missing a beat, he simulates a call to ATC to break off the approach and vectors himself away from the approach to troubleshoot. Watching it was like seeing great choreography.
 
Simple aircraft, simple procedure:
1. Slow to 90 kt at the IAF for the HILPT, PT or FAF transition. (Or slow to 90 kt when on final intercept vector for final approach)​
2. Gear down and welded​
3. Flaps up until runway environment in sight, landing assured. Then slow to 75-80 mph and go to full flaps. (If necessary, land without flaps.)​
​
In a busier airport environment, I might have to fly the approach a little faster. But at 90 kt I know all the numbers for level flight, approach descent.​
 
Thanks for all the responses. It looks like these 5 (or 7 if you want to count 1 & 2 twice) as the common SOPs (variations for special situations).

In no particular order:

1. Gear down well before GSI*, followed by flaps at GSI. (might be reversed in some airplanes with high VFE-APCH.)
2. Gear down 1-dot (or so) before GSI, flaps at GSI. (might be reversed in some airplanes with high VFE-APCH.) (@Doc Holliday, thanks for the chart from the DA50 training manual - great illustration of this one)
3. Gear down at GSI, initial flaps added during the descent.
4. Gear and flaps down before GSI; power reduction at GSI for the descent.
5. Gear down at GSI. No flaps until breaking out or reaching a specified altitude.

"well before GSI." I think it's Gary Reeves who recommends gear down as soon as entering the approach environment, so yes, @RussR, even BEPLE or DERPE in your T approach example. And I'm leaving out being at final approach speed and configuration while still enroute although there are probably pilots who are taught to do that (I think I was behind one once when I was asked to slow down for another aircraft ahead of me - I was in a 172 :D).
 
Last edited:
chemgeek said:
Simple aircraft, simple procedure:
1. Slow to 90 kt at the IAF for the HILPT, PT or FAF transition. (Or slow to 90 kt when on final intercept vector for final approach)​
2. Gear down and welded​
3. Flaps up until runway environment in sight, landing assured. Then slow to 75-80 mph and go to full flaps. (If necessary, land without flaps.)​
​
In a busier airport environment, I might have to fly the approach a little faster. But at 90 kt I know all the numbers for level flight, approach descent.​
Click to expand...
I once sat in a hold and watched a 182 do that for over 20 minutes. I didn’t beat him to the ramp, but I beat him into the lobby.
 
WDD said:
Appreciate your POV. But I’ll keep to the practice I was taught and still makes sense to have gear down and GUMP completed prior to IAF (and after any procedure turns) before heading to the FAF. Getting everything set up before hand leaves fewer tasks and allows more focus on flying the needles.

Flaps? I’ll give you that it could depend on the decent needed to get to FAF altitude.
Click to expand...
This is the first I’ve heard of someone configuring so soon. It might work in some aircraft, but when you jump up to a twin or something of that sort, that method doesn’t work. I wouldn’t want gear and flaps hanging down so far out. 0.5nm to 1.0nm from the FAF works well in a HP/Complex variant.
 
Now do another thread for VFR. The AFH says to extend the gear abeam the touchdown point, but I never cared for that technique.
 
dmspilot said:
Now do another thread for VFR. The AFH says to extend the gear abeam the touchdown point, but I never cared for that technique.
Click to expand...
The examiner who I did my airplane instructor ratings with was happy that I didn’t say to put the gear down “when the landing is assured,” which, upon further examination, usually meant “on short final.”
 
dmspilot said:
Now do another thread for VFR. The AFH says to extend the gear abeam the touchdown point, but I never cared for that technique.
Click to expand...
You are welcome to. It would be interesting. I don't use abeam either but I don't have an issue with those who do so long as they understand they need to "unfold" the pattern to account for straight-in, base, and other entries a Tower might instruct.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top