Zlin Savage Norden

[Andrew Morris]

Hey y’all,

Here’s a new LSA that was introduced about a month ago. I’ve been eagerly anticipating it’s arrival and it definitely hasn’t disappointed! I really think this will be a game changer in the STOL market as it has electric retractable slats, performance flaps, drooped tips, all pushrod ailerons, and a Rotax 915 iS up front. Looking at 125 mph cruise and 25 mph stall which is impressive.

 

[WmInce]

How much in US dollars?

 

[Kenny Phillips]

How much in US dollars?

Considering that the engine and prop together push $40K ... this will be in Carbon Cub territory.

 

[Warmi]

There is one on controller - their previous model with Titan 180HP and 30 hours going for something close to 180k so I presume this one will be around 200k depending on avionics.

 

[ktup-flyer]

Looks cool. I think most STOL guys would rather have manual flaps

 

[Andrew Morris]

Looks cool. I think most STOL guys would rather have manual flaps

Yes, the flaps are manual above the pilots left hand shoulder. Slats are electric and actuated by a switch on the dash taking about 3 seconds for them to deploy or retract. Here’s a little video of them in action.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_McMbDh2jP/?igshid=fvo3rawrso13

Also, a video from the first few days of testing. Only the second notch of flaps used here but now have tested the last notch and are seeing final approach speeds of 36 mph at a low AOA and weight of 1300 pounds.

 

[kyleb]

Hey y’all,

Here’s a new LSA that was introduced about a month ago.

Do you have a connection with the aircraft or the company? This reads like a marketing effort.

 

[Andrew Morris]

No, I keep getting that though haha. I love this sector of the market and am a big fan of those OEM’s pushing things forward. This is what progress looks like! Who wouldn’t be excited about this aircraft if you love STOL?!

 

[Warmi]

Here is another one of their previous modes for sale with some detailed pictures ..
http://sportair.aero/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/N3993-Ultra-Sales-Flyer.pdf

At $165k is cheaper than a carbon cub but still way too much for what it offers imho..

 

[Andrew Morris]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CAhzCoxBvrk/?igshid=1hhs0qlu6g7g8

https://www.instagram.com/p/CAhjeJBBZh3/?igshid=1i1l59nizg1sw

 

[Andrew Morris]

Wow...

 

[steingar]

A real airplane for 150K is not nosebleed territory by any standard.

 

[Warmi]

Whoa .. that is truly aggressive pricing, especially for the 915is engine. Bristell is attempting to sell their 915is LSA for something like 280 K which is just plain nuts.

 

[Andrew Morris]

Whoa .. that is truly aggressive pricing, especially for the 915is engine. Bristell is attempting to sell their 915is LSA for something like 280 K which is just plain nuts.

Agree! I’m super happy to see a manufacturer offer much more for less in 2020 and as you said that specific Bristell is going for $296K. Come on! I hope Zlin sells many of these here. All I have to say is, watch out CubCrafters!

 

[Andrew Morris]

This is what I’ve been waiting for.

 

[Andrew Morris]

Here’s an update from Zlin.

800 lbs (363 kg) Savage Norden with Rotax 915?

As we anticipated last February, the prototype has been reworked, to get this empty weight. And we did it.
The target was to offer to the market a lighter version of our plane to improve the STOL performances and with these main characteristics: full metal wing, retractable slats, double slotted flaps, carbon wing tips, 140 lt fuel tanks, "Rotax 915”, carbon cowling and 4 blade propeller, extended landing gear, 22” tires (in these pics we show the 29” ), soft baggage, carbon seats covered with Alcantara, carbon floorboards.
To get these results, we worked on every single detail, using as much as possible, carbon parts and also covering the fuselage with Oratex 6000. In the meantime, and with performances in mind, we have even asked to one our supplier, the propeller manufacturer Propellers E-Props, to build a larger propeller to explore better the STOL performances.
As you can see, we tried to design even a new paint scheme. The Oratex in black, is really nice, but we didn’t want to have and offer a total black plane. We tried to make something different, keeping in mind the final weight increase and painting the plane as less as possible…

 

[Dave Theisen]

Looks cool, but how much?

 

[Warmi]

Last time I checked it was about $140k for the 915is version so about 60K less than a new carbon cub.

 

[Stewartb]

Electric slats make no sense. Other than that? It’s a lightweight copycat of airplanes already proven. The question will be how it holds up in real life STOL conditions at gross weight.

The price for new Carbon Cubs is closer to $300K. I doubt the Zlin will make a dent in Cubcrafters’ backlog.

 

[Andrew Morris]

Electric slats make no sense. Other than that? It’s a lightweight copycat of airplanes already proven. The question will be how it holds up in real life STOL conditions at gross weight.

The price for new Carbon Cubs is closer to $300K. I doubt the Zlin will make a dent in Cubcrafters’ backlog.

No offense but are you serious? Electric slats only make sense! Do you know what coefficient of lift is? Tell me what this airplane looks like? Where is an all metal wing with electric retractable slats, double slotted flaps, frise ailerons, and carbon drooped tips because I’d love to be made aware?

With the right marketing and awareness I think you’d be surprised as the Norden makes a Carbon Cub SS look silly. Just compare the wings and there’s no comparison!

 

[Doc Holliday]

Why not go with slats that deploy aerodynamically such as was used on the Helio Courier?

 

[Andrew Morris]

Why not go with slats that deploy aerodynamically such as was used on the Helio Courier?

I finally got to see a Helio Courier at Sun N’ Fun a few weeks ago and got into a discussion with one of the JAARS pilots about automatic spring vs electric retractable slats. Here is one large issue with spring slats. Power had just been applied here. Maybe not such a big deal on a heavy airplane like the Helio on landing when a few of the slats panels are tucked in and some are out but it could be an issue for an airplane weighing <900 pounds in a crosswind.

Another advantage of electric slats is having multiple positions to choose from. For instance a takeoff setting and a landing setting. There’s only one electric motor that’s interconnected to both slats panels so if the motor were to fail both slats stay in their respective position. The slats on the Norden weigh 22 pounds which I think is more than worth it.

 

[Stewartb]

No offense but are you serious? Electric slats only make sense! Do you know what coefficient of lift is? Tell me what this airplane looks like? Where is an all metal wing with electric retractable slats, double slotted flaps, frise ailerons, and carbon drooped tips because I’d love to be made aware?

With the right marketing and awareness I think you’d be surprised as the Norden makes a Carbon Cub SS look silly. Just compare the wings and there’s no comparison!

Very serious. Do you have hours in slat wing Cubs? Or variants like Highlanders? My Cub has deep chord ailerons, 112” Fowler flaps, and SQ slats. There are several other SQ slat Cubs and a few Carbon Concept slat Cubs on my home strip. I have about a dozen friends not on my strip with SQ type slats and variations of SQ type Cubs with other wing mods, flaps, airframe extensions, etc. For the most part the goal is a good performing airplanes that can carry 1000# plus and hold up to rough conditions. I’m not a fan of the lightweight planes. Carbon Cubs have earned respect. There are a few of those on my strip that get flown hard and they’re doing fine. A couple have slats. Not my first choice in an airframe but they’re impressive overall.

Helio slats are very different from SQ slats but they share an important trait. The pilot doesn’t do anything to deploy them. They both use air pressure to actuate. Helios are all in or all out. SQs are variable. Mine work great.

 

[Andrew Morris]

Very serious. Do you have hours in slat wing Cubs? Or variants like Highlanders? My Cub has deep chord ailerons, 112” Fowler flaps, and SQ slats. There are several other SQ slat Cubs and a few Carbon Concept slat Cubs on my home strip. I have about a dozen friends not on my strip with SQ type slats and variations of SQ type Cubs with other wing mods, flaps, airframe extensions, etc. For the most part the goal is a good performing airplanes that can carry 1000# plus and hold up to rough conditions. I’m not a fan of the lightweight planes. Carbon Cubs have earned respect. There are a few of those on my strip that get flown hard and they’re doing fine. A couple have slats. Not my first choice in an airframe but they’re impressive overall.

You don’t have to be a fan of lightweight planes, but there’s no reason to knock retractable slats and say the Norden is just another copycat when nothing else like it exists currently.

All of the other “slats” are really just slots. Zlin used Carbon Concepts slots on the Shock Cub and those are a compromise between lift and drag.

These electric slats really unlock their full potential and can increase the coefficient of lift by up to 3X. They create a tremendous forward pitching moment balanced by the massive double slotted flaps which allows the Norden to approach at a lower AOA and airspeed for the given wing area with the shape of the windscreen being designed with this in mind.

Being able to change 12% of the wing area (156sq.ft>175sq.ft) in 3 seconds is not insignificant and allows you to cruise much faster while increasing wing loading. It also makes for quicker and more precise handling with all pushrod controls and a 29’ wing to rip around in. I’m a stickler for handling and from everything I’ve read and watched this seems to exhibit really quick and precise roll rates which I’m excited to test out.

 

[Stewartb]

Yep, you sound like a brochure. Time will tell, right?

 

[Andrew Morris]

Yep, you sound like a brochure. Time will tell, right?

Thank you, I appreciate that. The numbers are already out there.

 

[Stewartb]

I like numbers. How many planes are out there? How many hours accumulated? How many are operating in true off airport conditions?

 

[Andrew Morris]

They’ve been making airplanes for over twenty years now so hundreds.

 

[Stewartb]

Diversion. How many Nordens?

 

[Warmi]

Diversion. How many Nordens?

Yeah, after spending 250+ k for a toy I would be the same way .. got to justify it somehow right ?

 

[Andrew Morris]

Diversion. How many Nordens?

They have already delivered one to a customer and five others close to maiden flights. They have sold fifty of them.

 

[Stewartb]

Yeah, after spending 250+ k for a toy I would be the same way .. got to justify it somehow right ?

I’m in no position to judge other guys for what they spend on their toys! I’m guilty, too. I’m just skeptical about new airplanes and the sales pitch to sell them. This ain’t my first rabbit hunt.

 

[Andrew Morris]

I’m in no position to judge other guys for what they spend on their toys! I’m guilty, too. I’m just skeptical about new airplanes and the sales pitch to sell them. This ain’t my first rabbit hunt.

Well I’m not a salesman, I’m just really excited about this airplane and what it will mean for the future of STOL moving forward. Imagine this wing design scaled up to 35’6”?

 

[Stewartb]

No imagination needed. My wingspan is 39'.

A little history. As I said I have lots of friends with slat wing Cubs. Watching what they can do convinced me I wanted to do what I'd done before and said I'd never do again.... build another Cub. I did tons of research including looking at LSA options. Carbon Cubs, Javron Cubs, Legend Cubs, Backcountry Cubs, buying parts and doing my own.... slats, flaps, extended wings, extended gear, extended airframe, oversize tailfeathers, deeper chord ailerons and flaps... it goes on and on. I settled on my Backcountry because it has a huge cargo door (longerons are relocated compared to standard Cubs) and with 2' add to the length is has gobs of space. Slats expand the CG envelope aft 1", too. Of course with size comes weight, so I have a pumped-up IO-390 and a constant speed. Performance and utility are awesome. Happy days. This segment of aviation is fun. I don't see the landscape changing with the newest Zlin offering. They'll challenge the Kitfox and Highlander crowd but I doubt the Cub guys will pay much attention.

 

[Andrew Morris]

No imagination needed. My wingspan is 39'.

A little history. As I said I have lots of friends with slat wing Cubs. Watching what they can do convinced me I wanted to do what I'd done before and said I'd never do again.... build another Cub. I did tons of research including looking at LSA options. Carbon Cubs, Javron Cubs, Legend Cubs, Backcountry Cubs, buying parts and doing my own.... slats, flaps, extended wings, extended gear, extended airframe, oversize tailfeathers, deeper chord ailerons and flaps... it goes on and on. I settled on my Backcountry because it has a huge cargo door (longerons are relocated compared to standard Cubs) and with 2' add to the length is has gobs of space. Slats expand the CG envelope aft 1", too. Of course with size comes weight, so I have a pumped-up IO-390 and a constant speed. Performance and utility are awesome. Happy days. This segment of aviation is fun. I don't see the landscape changing with the newest Zlin offering. They'll challenge the Kitfox and Highlander crowd but I doubt the Cub guys will pay much attention.

I don’t think your 39’ wingspan Cub can maneuver like this.

 

[Warmi]

Thrust vectoring ...

 

[Andrew Morris]

 

[wanttaja]

Diversion. How many Nordens?

About 30 Zlin Savages in the US registry, most licensed as Special or Experimental Light Sport. Mostly Rotaxes, some Continentals or clones. None have "Norden" in the model name, but that doesn't mean much.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Andrew Morris]

About 30 Zlin Savages in the US registry, most licensed as Special or Experimental Light Sport. Mostly Rotaxes, some Continentals or clones. None have "Norden" in the model name, but that doesn't mean much.

Ron Wanttaja

The first one for the US should be on its way as we speak in time for Oshkosh.