Zero carbon emissions for major airline -- Do you think this is achievable? If so, how?

Not locked yet? Surprised.

Being in marketing/market research I see things in word choices that others don’t

“Climate change denial”. “Denial” sneaks in the assumption that there is a hard incontrovertible non discussable fact that is being denied. It’s also emotionally linking this to “Holocaust Denial”.

“guilty”. An emotional word that is very effective in putting the other person on their heels - also sneaks in the assumption that the other person has done something wrong. Same as using the word “racist”

Those that see that the climate has changed a lot all by itself - ice ages, much warmer temps, higher O2 content, etc - and question if people are capable of changing the climate are vilified vs those that say we are doomed (emotional driven).
 
A massive amount of CO2 is being sunk into the oceans. The resulting change in ocean chemistry is altering the growth cycles of many marine animals called calcifiers, major links in the lower end of the food chain. Not a good thing. But like was said, what do we care? It's the following generations who will suffer the most damage.
 
It's the following generations who will suffer the most damage.
Damage in the form of interest payments (or inflated consumer prices) on the trillions of dollars of borrowed money the next generations will have to pay for any climate follies of ours is what I care about. The 20-year war in Afghanistan cost about the same as the amount of money spent in the past two months, with even more to come. We're around 30 trillion in debt now, so here's a reminder of how one trillion dollars in 100 dollar bills looks like:

Visualizing a Trillion: Just How Big That Number Is? - Digital Inspiration (labnol.org)
 
It's interesting to read people claiming to know what other people care about.
 
There are so many things wrong with what you are saying. I feel bad for you.
What things are wrong with that? He's not sufficiently woke? :) I'm just riffing on the questions on that term from earlier in the thread.

I see it as a poorly written description of a demographic similar to descriptions leading to an election: "65% of white males older than 55 expressed a preference for candidate XYZ"

Most deniers are in my demographic (white, male, 55+). To be blunt, they know they'll be dead before their kids and grandkids have to face any really serious consequences, so why should they care?

Their elaborate denial theories are constructed around what they want/need to believe to avoid feeling guilty, because feeling guilty is also unpleasant.
Do you have a reference for that demographic?
We could also see the context and sampling information for a number that purports to represent a population.
 
Wish I could help you but I don’t want to get banned.

the ban hammer hasn't stopped other posters from expressing ahem interesting thoughts on the defintion.
 
Most deniers are in my demographic (white, male, 55+). To be blunt, they know they'll be dead before their kids and grandkids have to face any really serious consequences, so why should they care?

Their elaborate denial theories are constructed around what they want/need to believe to avoid feeling guilty, because feeling guilty is also unpleasant.
Our demographic is old enough that those of us who did a lot of reading, and whose memories are still good, remember all the traumatic stuff we were fed over 50 years ago. In school in the 1960s the teachers terrified the kids with the "imminent new ice age" and the "population bomb." And ever since then there have been prominent people making similar predictions that have fallen totally flat. Not even close to coming true. So what would you expect from us old guys that have listened to all this stuff and are still waiting for it to happen? We get skeptical, as we should. More recently, remember that British computer model that predicted tens of millions of Covid deaths? Models are only as good as the parameters that are entered into the computers, and bias toward certain outcomes is nearly impossible to avoid.

Here's a long and interesting list of failed predictions since about 1967: https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-years-of-failed-eco-pocalyptic-predictions/

I remember almost all of those. Anyone my age should. It seems, though, that too many watch the boob tube and believe whatever it tells them, and forget that last year or five years or ten ago it said something quite different.

Re the Covid model and its creator: https://statmodeling.stat.columbia....al-is-why-did-anyone-ever-listen-to-this-guy/

What you're never told is that every year there are hundreds of new papers, by real climate scientists, questioning the "settled science," with real numbers and evidence. https://climatediscussionnexus.com/2021/01/20/148-papers-for-high-sticking/

If anthropogenic climate change is a real threat, it needs addressing or we're all in real trouble. If it's been way overblown and is not a real threat, and we address it by spending trillions on it, we risk wrecking the world's economies and infrastructures and all of us are in real trouble. This is why honest debate and evaluation are necessary, but debate is so often dismissed by saying " the science is settled." That's not wise at all, as that long list of failed predictions spectacularly demonstrates.
 
Some idiots will light off the nukes long before the climate thing becomes a serious problem.
Well, I think that’s precisely the problem... waiting until it becomes a serious issue. Why put it off until it becomes a serious issue, when we can take steps to mitigate it today? There will come a day when the skeptics will meet reality...
 
Well, I think that’s precisely the problem... waiting until it becomes a serious issue. Why put it off until it becomes a serious issue, when we can take steps to mitigate it today? There will come a day when the skeptics will meet reality...

yeah. It is a CERTAINTY it will become a serious issue.

:rolleyes:
 
when we can take steps to mitigate it today?
But whose steps or recommendations? The ones that receive all the political and media attention/narrative, or the other scientific studies/recommendations that do not receive the same coverage but are just as legitimate?

And up to what level would you and the global community being will to go to enforce those steps? Military action? How climate change is perceived is far from an age demographic as it is a cultural and location demographic.

Personally, I support the opinions and recommendations to require every country to meet the same environmental national policies and emission standards of the top 3 countries listed on the Environmental Democracy Index. That puts the onus on each individual country. Once all the countries are at the same playing level, then a more realistic discussion on mitigation can begin.
 
Our demographic is old enough that those of us who did a lot of reading, and whose memories are still good, remember all the traumatic stuff we were fed over 50 years ago. In school in the 1960s the teachers terrified the kids with the "imminent new ice age" and the "population bomb." And ever since then there have been prominent people making similar predictions that have fallen totally flat. Not even close to coming true. So what would you expect from us old guys that have listened to all this stuff and are still waiting for it to happen? We get skeptical, as we should. More recently, remember that British computer model that predicted tens of millions of Covid deaths? Models are only as good as the parameters that are entered into the computers, and bias toward certain outcomes is nearly impossible to avoid.
And a lot of models are correct about COVID. Those might have been your schools, but they may not be representative of other places.

Here's a long and interesting list of failed predictions since about 1967: https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-years-of-failed-eco-pocalyptic-predictions/

I remember almost all of those. Anyone my age should. It seems, though, that too many watch the boob tube and believe whatever it tells them, and forget that last year or five years or ten ago it said something quite different.
Those ice-age predictions were never accepted by most scientists. There were a handful of papers that made that prediction, and the media picked up on it, as your citation shows. There's a lot of news clippings there, but no papers. However, after that time, the reports about global warming have been consistent- more than last year or 5 or 10 years ago.

Just a single person, not representative of the medical profession.

What you're never told is that every year there are hundreds of new papers, by real climate scientists, questioning the "settled science," with real numbers and evidence. https://climatediscussionnexus.com/2021/01/20/148-papers-for-high-sticking/
148 papers? I'm surprised there aren't more. Out of thousands of papers each year, that all they found?
As the citation above goes to another link which is a similar sort of summary, it is impossible to see which journals. 148 papers isn't such a long list that those papers can't be cited on that web page. I'm writing an article now (not on climate change) that has around 50 citations now, I'll have to list all of those. It is very likely that a number of those 148 are published in those fake journals I mentioned earlier in the thread. Anyone from PoA can publish in any "journal" in the Omics group for a couple of thousand dollars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMICS_Publishing_Group


"Many of these predatory journals publish research that supports a particular political, religious, or social agenda using questionable science that normally would not pass through peer review. I’ve seen predatory journals publish pseudoscientific therapies for financial gain, papers denying man-made climate change (or climate change entirely), or even claiming a newly discovered drug is efficacious, with the hope to attract investors and sell the drug over the internet without government approval."
http://blogs.nature.com/naturejobs/2017/06/26/sciences-fake-journal-epidemic/
Yes, there are likely to be papers supporting the climate change narrative submitted and cited to those journals. The only ones who take such journals seriously are the authors submitting to them, and those who use them merely to support their own narrative.

If anthropogenic climate change is a real threat, it needs addressing or we're all in real trouble. If it's been way overblown and is not a real threat, and we address it by spending trillions on it, we risk wrecking the world's economies and infrastructures and all of us are in real trouble. This is why honest debate and evaluation are necessary, but debate is so often dismissed by saying " the science is settled." That's not wise at all, as that long list of failed predictions spectacularly demonstrates.
Again, those predictions were made by a minority that received a megaphone by the media. Just the same as very small subsets of politicians and other "influencers" do now. They don't represent the view of most people working in the field.
Much of the science is settled. The adsorption and emission characteristics of various gases in the atmosphere to light and heat are well known, Arrhenius was mentioned earlier in the thread. The way that heat is trapped, and the evaporation or water is known. The thermodynamics of heating a gas and water vapor is known. We use adsorption and emission for many of the devices we use daily, thermodynamics to run our engines.
 
In school in the 1960s the teachers terrified the kids with the "imminent new ice age" and the "population bomb."

The "new ice age" is from the 70s, not the 60s. It is an old canard that people throw out as a smoking gun, generally to delegitimize climate change arguments. The "new ice age" school of thought was never widely accepted in the scientific community and was quickly discarded. The only reason that the story persists is that two major news magazines published scary cover stories about it. Concerns about climate change (due to accumulation of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere) among scientists was already germinating in the 1950s. And those predictions are definitely playing out.

And the "population bomb" concerns voiced 50 years ago? They are also playing out as suggested. Global population has roughly quadrupled in the last 50 years. So I find your argument that "predictions have fallen totally flat" unconvincing.
 
Trying to tie up this loose end on this Saturday morning... let's put our heads together (ok, we'll use mostly your head):

I once calculated that it would take a G-5 more than one hundred years of typical corporate flight department utilization (500 hours) to equal the size of one typical cumulus cloud (one billion pounds of water vapor, isn't it?) in CO2 mass. But I could accept being all wrong if somebody can prove it to me.

I don't have a good reference, but the mass of the water in a cumulus cloud is estimated at around a million kilograms, 2.2 million pounds, a lot less than a billion. The reference below is one I would use in the absence of better ones.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-do-clouds-float-when/
Using your numbers, I guestimate "your" G5 produces about 112,000 kg water, so you'd get your cumulus cloud in about 9 to 10 years.

"A typical linear dimension of a cumulus cloud is 3–10 km, with updraft velocities of a few meters per second (Rogers and Yau, 1996)."
Cumulus Clouds - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

"Thus, a typical fair weather cumulus cloud weighs about one billion pounds..."
talite9606.pdf (weather.gov)

The first reference gives a size, I don't think there's any dispute about that.

As for the second reference, that seems to be an outlier. The Scientific American article seems on the heavy side, I chose it because it was closer to the value you posted.
https://www.usgs.gov/special-topic/...ce_center_objects=0#qt-science_center_objects
https://www.zmescience.com/science/how-much-do-clouds-weigh/

Thank you for giving a citation.

EDIT:
Looking at the talite reference, the density for moist air looks very far off.
@ 275 °K, that's just above freezing. The link below suggests the density for dry and 100% humid air are rather close:
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/density-air-d_680.html
The 0.626 kg/m**3 seems to be the density at 100°C

That suggests he is overestimating the water vapor contribution.

So, if we can agree that one billion pounds is the weight of a "typical cumulus cloud" and only quibble about whether it's one or three kilometers in diameter, then lets use your rate of CO2 production for a G-V Gulfstream of 2.2 million pounds per 9 or 10 years. Let's use 10 years for simplicity. That's .22 million pounds of CO2 per year or .00022 billion pounds per year. Am I right? Calculated out, that's 4,545 years of corporate flight department usage (@500 hr/yr) to equal the greenhouse damage of just one "typical" cumulus cloud. That can't be right. Where did we go wrong?
 
@dtuuri

You forget, that even if the cloud has a mass of 1 billion pounds, not all of it is CO2. In fact, CO2 makes up less than
Per https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-composition-d_212.html CO2 is roughly 0.063% of the mass of the proposed cloud. That means total CO2 is only 63 million pounds.

Tim
Not sure you understand my attempt at visualization. I'm trying to put the greenhouse consequences of burning fossil fuel in perspective. There are countless cumulus clouds at any given moment above the world's surface. I'm assuming each one is "harmless" water vapor. Harmless in the sense we accept it as natural and healthy. But water vapor is a greenhouse gas, like CO2 which we deem "harmful". I'm trying to associate the CO2 production of running a top of the line corporate jet with the harmful effects of the water vapor contained in one typical cumulus cloud. How long would it take under an average utilization of, say, 500 flight hours per year to be the same.
 
That is not how it works. I have read enough to know that CO2, water vapor, even R12, all affect heat retention in different ways. This is way outside my wheelhouse, but assuming I followed the papers here are the methods I recall:
1. Some molecules reduce the the ability of the atmosphere to reflect the sun's energy, usually by reducing the ozone layer or by reducing the effectiveness of the ozone layer.
2. Some molecules are better at absorbing energy from the light spectrum and transferring said energy to other molecules as heat.
3. Some molecules act more like an insulating blanket, they trap the heat.
4. Some molecules are better at radiant cooling, others effectively cannot do radiant cooling. Radiant cooling from the upper levels of the atmosphere is one way the earth "sheds" heat.
5. Some molecules actually capture radiant energy as heat and heat the molecules around them.

I know there are more; but those are the ones I recall. You need a real climate expert not an IT person like me to explain the other possible variation plus verify if your comparison is valid. From my limited knowledge, I do not think it is.

Tim
 
Trying to tie up this loose end on this Saturday morning... let's put our heads together (ok, we'll use mostly your head):








So, if we can agree that one billion pounds is the weight of a "typical cumulus cloud" and only quibble about whether it's one or three kilometers in diameter, then lets use your rate of CO2 production for a G-V Gulfstream of 2.2 million pounds per 9 or 10 years. Let's use 10 years for simplicity. That's .22 million pounds of CO2 per year or .00022 billion pounds per year. Am I right? Calculated out, that's 4,545 years of corporate flight department usage (@500 hr/yr) to equal the greenhouse damage of just one "typical" cumulus cloud. That can't be right. Where did we go wrong?
We didn't go wrong. Either you are mixing information, or I'm not understanding you. The weight of the water in a cumulus cloud is 1-2 million pounds. Assuming the 1 billion pounds I see in the statement is only of water in a cloud, I believe I pointed out the mistake in that calculation, where he seems to have used the density of saturated air at 100 °C to greatly overestimate the amount of water vapor in that cloud. The calculate in your citation would suggest a 40% change in air density inside that cloud compared to an air parcel at the same temperature that is dry. As a pilot who lived on the coast. I never had to lean my engine on the ground to the equivalent of 10,000 feet on a humid summer day, compared to a dry one. The references I cited for 1-2 million pounds of water have different values, suggesting independent calculations using different temperatures and altitudes, suggesting again that your 1 billion number is in error.
Second, you quoted my statement, and you should be able to see, that I didn't calculate any rate of CO2 production. It will be in proportion to the water that I did calculate. But saying I calculated a rate of carbon dioxide is incorrect, so the number you state is nothing I will lay claim to, and I won't state that you are right, or incorrect for that matter, either.

We've jumped from water to carbon dioxide- what link between the two are you positing?


Not sure you understand my attempt at visualization. I'm trying to put the greenhouse consequences of burning fossil fuel in perspective. There are countless cumulus clouds at any given moment above the world's surface. I'm assuming each one is "harmless" water vapor. Harmless in the sense we accept it as natural and healthy. But water vapor is a greenhouse gas, like CO2 which we deem "harmful". I'm trying to associate the CO2 production of running a top of the line corporate jet with the harmful effects of the water vapor contained in one typical cumulus cloud. How long would it take under an average utilization of, say, 500 flight hours per year to be the same.
Cumulus clouds are more than water vapor, they are also liquid water. That interacts with solar radiation much differently than water vapor does.
 
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That is not how it works.
"It" doesn't "work" in my visualization, although it might in yours. I wish to compare a typical one billion pound cumulus-sized cloud of pure water vapor with the CO2 produced by a G-5 Gulfstream corporate jet. The actual size, whether one kilometer or three or any other dimension is moot as long as it's "typical". I'm postulating that it takes a long time for such a gas hog to impact the planet as much as any single little white puffy cloud does every single day.
 
"It" doesn't "work" in my visualization, although it might in yours. I wish to compare a typical one billion pound cumulus-sized cloud of pure water vapor with the CO2 produced by a G-5 Gulfstream corporate jet. The actual size, whether one kilometer or three or any other dimension is moot as long as it's "typical". I'm postulating that it takes a long time for such a gas hog to impact the planet as much as any single little white puffy cloud does every single day.
You are starting off with the misinformation that the water content of a typical cumulus cloud is a billion pounds. What is the link you are trying to make with carbon dioxide? You started with the amount of water vapor produced by the jet.
 
The average thunderstorm cloud weighs 563,200,000 pounds.

Weight Of Clouds | What Things Weigh
Yep. Those are quite a bit larger than a typical cumulus cloud. And still only half the weight that is was mentioned for a cumulus cloud. From your citation...
"Cumulus clouds are the clouds that most people are familiar with. The average weight of these puffy white clouds is 1.1 million pounds (500,000 kg)."
And the context for my reply:
the weight of a "typical cumulus cloud"
 
Yep. Those are quite a bit larger than a typical cumulus cloud. And still only half the weight that is was mentioned for a cumulus cloud. From your citation...
"Cumulus clouds are the clouds that most people are familiar with. The average weight of these puffy white clouds is 1.1 million pounds (500,000 kg)."
And the context for my reply:
Like I said, "billion" is the standard I've chosen for comparison in my visualization. Only the scale in kilometers is debatable and moot. Clouds come in all different sizes and I want to use one that weighs a billion pounds and is of a size which some folks consider "typical". I've seen 3 kilometers mentioned in years gone by as the size of a one billion pound cloud. Years ago, based on that information, I figured over one hundred years for a G-V to produce an equal amount of CO2.

Since you chose a different weight and came up with 9 or 10 years based on your own knowledge of G-V CO2 production I simply extrapolated to a billion and got a number of years even I think is wrong. But I'm sticking with my original guesstimate of over 100 years until somebody can tell me how long it takes for a G-V to convert jet fuel to a billion pounds of CO2. Maybe they (or if you want to figure it out) will also indicate the physical size of the comparable cloud of water vapor too.
 
Like I said, "billion" is the standard I've chosen for comparison in my visualization. Only the scale in kilometers is debatable and moot. Clouds come in all different sizes and I want to use one that weighs a billion pounds and is of a size which some folks consider "typical". I've seen 3 kilometers mentioned in years gone by as the size of a one billion pound cloud. Years ago, based on that information, I figured over one hundred years for a G-V to produce an equal amount of CO2.

Since you chose a different weight and came up with 9 or 10 years based on your own knowledge of G-V CO2 production I simply extrapolated to a billion and got a number of years even I think is wrong. But I'm sticking with my original guesstimate of over 100 years until somebody can tell me how long it takes for a G-V to convert jet fuel to a billion pounds of CO2. Maybe they (or if you want to figure it out) will also indicate the physical size of the comparable cloud of water vapor too.
I didn't choose a different weight, I used the mass typically used for such a cloud. I cited references, showed how the calculation you cited was incorrect. Maybe this is the problem?
"It" doesn't "work" in my visualization, although it might in yours.
Your visualization isn't based on reality. As Donald Trump once said, "you're entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts"
 
I didn't choose a different weight, I used the mass typically used for such a cloud. I cited references, showed how the calculation you cited was incorrect. Maybe this is the problem?
My weight Trumps yours because I said so. It is one billion pounds. I got it from Flying Magazine (I think). A long time ago. I backed it up with a current reference too. I don't think it's a "problem", though, since nobody can accurately estimate the size of a cloud anyway, but we all know what an average one looks like—and it's big enough to weigh one billion pounds in my scenario.
 
How do you weigh a lighter than air something when it doesn’t register on a scale? Asking for a friend:D

Cheers
 
How do you weigh a lighter than air something when it doesn’t register on a scale? Asking for a friend:D

I'm guessing they are quibbling over the weight of a volume of air that is saturated versus one that is unsaturated. They are debating the weight of water vapor, not the weight of the comingling molecules of nitrogen, oxygen, and trace gases. I guess??
 
I'm guessing they are quibbling over the weight of a volume of air that is saturated versus one that is unsaturated. They are debating the weight of water vapor, not the weight of the comingling molecules of nitrogen, oxygen, and trace gases. I guess??
No that's not it. We can all relate visually to a cumulus cloud, although everybody may have their own idea about how many cubic kilometers it is. I want to compare one to a same-size cloud of pure CO2 a G-V makes from jet fuel. How many years would it take? I calculated this maybe ten years ago on the back of an envelope based on an article I read informing that an average or a typical cumulus cloud weighed a billion pounds. IIRC, the diameter of said cloud was 3 kilometers. I used a carbon formula for a G-V from available information at the time.

Now, however, this "typical" cloud size has been conveniently reduced in size to a single kilometer by internet denizens. I am a skeptic. I suspect a scientist (a lazy one) changed the standard size cumulus cloud to one kilometer because it renders a billion cubic something or anothers, but not a billion pounds—which is what I'm after.

Along the way on the path to help me, there are knowledgeable people insisting my billion pound cloud is incorrect. But it's MY cloud and I can make it as big as I want! :)
 
How do you weigh a lighter than air something when it doesn’t register on a scale? Asking for a friend:D
If I remember my high school physics lab experiment correctly, you put it in a container of known weight, vacuum out the air (Houston, we have a problem) and put it on a scale.
 
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