Youth in Aviation, some thoughts

I own a retail store and get to meet a lot of people. The most common response I get when trying to talk others in to flying is that they do not have the time or the money. These are people who regularly purchase custom made picture framing, another industry that is pricing itself into oblivion.

These are also people who have no clue that it costs $320.00 for a rocker switch to be replaced in a panel, or $20,000.00 to overhaul a little air cooled airplane motor.

They have heard from others that flying is expensive. They know they can not afford it, simple as that.

John
 
I don't buy the money argument. Always an issue but not a show stopper. Time, I'll believe as an argument, but I think the money argument is an excuse masking fear. That is OK I have no bones about people being afraid of flying. Look at the simulator crowd or better yet the RC crowd for the time and money many of those folks spend they could be driving from the inside.
 
Dan Thomas said:
We can beef about the endless rules, but those rules are imposed by regulators in response to demands from the public every time there's another accident. And in my 37 years around airplanes as a PPL,CPL, instructor, homebuilder and mechanic, I see that almost all of those accidents are a result either of ignorance (not enough training for the environment involved) or stupidity (ignoring the training received).

Dan
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Exactly you can't regulate ignorance and stupidity. Any attempt to do so reduces freedom for smart people. No wonder some smart folks have no tolerance for the rules. The public rarely clamors for increased rules it is bureaucrats(and to a much lesser extent politicians) with nothing better to do than make other people unhappy while justifying their existence.
 
ClimbnSink said:
I don't buy the money argument. Always an issue but not a show stopper. Time, I'll believe as an argument, but I think the money argument is an excuse masking fear. That is OK I have no bones about people being afraid of flying. Look at the simulator crowd or better yet the RC crowd for the time and money many of those folks spend they could be driving from the inside.
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I think that there are a lot of factors and money can be a show stopper for many people but it is not as big a factor as some might think. I think time is a factor for some but I think lack of interest is the biggest factor. I came to that conclusion after I started flying charter/corporate. Most people express absolutely no interest in what is going on up front even though there are no doors and they are free to get up and see what we are doing when the seatbelt sign is off. If they ask us a question it's usually about where the drinks or snacks are located. I would say maybe 10% might peer up in front and ask how high we are, how fast we are going or where we are. It pretty unusual for someone to say that they are a pilot or to express any interest in learning. I think that kids are sometimes even less impressed than adults. Most of the pilots I have worked with are pretty approachable and willing to talk about the airplane and flying, it's just that people rarely ask.
 
ClimbnSink said:
I don't buy the money argument. Always an issue but not a show stopper. Time, I'll believe as an argument, but I think the money argument is an excuse masking fear.
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Money, energy and time are mutually exclusive.


Trapper John
 
It sure seems, on the surface, that there's less incentive and more hurdles for the average kid nowadays, but aside from perhaps more opportunities for gainful employment when aviation was young and growing rapidly (not to mention during the world wars), the old-timers got into it the same way youngsters do today: they lived near an airport, or they went to an airshow, or someone gave them a ride. And it was rarley an easy road for any of them, even the legends.

When you hear someone like Bob Hoover talk about what he had to do to get flight time when he first got bit by the bug (he was dirt poor and flying even then was not easy for such folks to afford), you realize that there never was much in the way of school programs, most kids didn't have family members or neighbors who were pilots, and flight training has never been cheap compared to the price of other vocational training or recreational pursuits.

Maybe, just maybe, the percentage of kids who are intently curious about flying has decreased, but those who are still have that same funny look on their face that such kids always had, and always will. There are still plenty of pilots willing to take them for rides, and I'm not just talking about the Young Eagles program.
And they will do whatever it takes to achieve their flying goals; that's the kind of kids they are.

An afterthought: the thing that held me back for so long was that I just didn't think I could hack it, I guess. I blame only myself...nobody told me "you can't do that!" '... I never asked. Didn't know any pilots, never went out to the airport, didn't know anything at all about aviation except that I thought it seemed exciting.
When I finally got into it, I still didn't quite foresee how much time, money and effort it would take, but I didn't let that stop me. I still can't buy an airplane, but that's not going to stop me, either. If I lose my medical, I'll keep soaring. When I can't handle a glider anymore myself, I'll bum rides. There's really nothing stopping anybody from at least being involved.
 
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My son's scout leader and I arranged a weekend campout, along with an intro ride in a glider, at a rural airport. I think 12 kids went, and all flew, plus the adults that went along. From that group, about half asked for a ride in a powered plane, and I took all but one for rides. (his parents had no problems with the glider, but freaked about flying in a "little Cessna") One of the parents gave me crap for a month over getting his kid hooked on flying, because he came home from his second flight and announced his plan to become a pilot. The best part, was I had a ball, and got to share my passion for flight. My point is it's just a matter of getting involved a bit. Not as hard as it seems, and everyone on the flying side was eager to help.
BTW. I grew up off the north end of the Alva, OK airport. Every chance I had, was on my bike, at the airport, watching, or just sitting under a tree, looking as the planes turned base to final, and landed. After I moved, and as soon as I learned to drive, I was hanging at one airport or another. So I guess the airport kid still exists, and I still see them today, and invite them to come over and see the plane if I have time.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Kids are experiencing life in a virtual fashion now. Simulated everything, from flight to games to visiting friends. It's all electronic, nothing is real. Such kids find the real world too dangerous and dirty, and boring to boot. Just try to take one of them fishing or camping. Too hot, too cold, too many bugs, no cell service, no action.

We'd benefit from an electron shortage, maybe.

Dan
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Here! Here! Dan. My thoughts exactly. There have been studies of kids today and the electronic world and they say the exact same thing. It amazes me how many people think this is a good thing. Research shows that it is exactly as you say.
 
GMascelli said:
Good post.....

I was contacted by a CAP youngster, only 13years old. This wanna be pilot listens on Live ATC plus has a scanner for KILG WIlmington. He has heard me in and out of ILG quite often and tracked my tail number which led to my blog and on to my email. He finally contacted me and asked about the possibility of flying. I asked his age and let him know I would have to get that cleared through his parents.

We are scheduled to meet at the airport saturday after I get back from the North East Flyers, Reading meet up. I'm not sure who was more excited his Mom or the youngster. His mother tells me it's all about flying for this kid, eat sleep and drink it. I'm excited I have the chance to give back and get this future pilot in the air and having some fun.
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Bravo!!!
 
Diana said:
I guess I don't see kids the way that you do.

This is how I see them:


Tom and I have been taking kids flying for years, way before the Young Eagles program was established. Many of those people are now pilots and mechanics.

A lot of kids in this rural community are out working on the family farms, out riding horses, out hunting with their families in addition to doing all the other activities that don't involve electronic devices.

Most of what I have to say I've already said:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=976

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1280

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13635

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19465

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27614

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28699

My nephew just turned 14. His sister is the girl who wrote the article mentioned in a thread above. I took him for his second aerobatic ride when they were here for Thanksgiving. He filmed it while we were flying and made a video for a school contest about having a passion for something. He won first place in his media category. I have it on a DVD, but will post his video when he gets me a different version of it because I can't convert it from the DVD format to my computer. For Christmas we gave them an official pilot log book and a gift certificate for their first official flying lesson with Tom. We've been taking them flying for years and let them fly. They can't wait to fly again and will likely both become pilots.

Maybe I'm seeing a different bunch of kids than you are.

BTW, we will be taking from 70 to 80 kids flying in April, so we might need some help again this year. :)
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May I use this video on my website? PM me, I would be grateful.
 
David_L_Wilson said:
Here! Here! Dan. My thoughts exactly. There have been studies of kids today and the electronic world and they say the exact same thing. It amazes me how many people think this is a good thing. Research shows that it is exactly as you say.
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I'm not sure that the attitude that some people have displayed here is going to win them any points with the youth they are trying to inspire. The electronic world is a fact of life and many people enjoy what it can bring to their lives, ironically a lot of people, young and old, who post here. We are not talking face to face, after all.
 
Give me a break.
It has nothing to do with motivation, electronic toys or anything else.

Kids don't fly because they can't afford it. Period.

An hour of a rental 172 costs around 130 here. That's more coin than most kids can imagine making, let alone spending on ONLY an hour of flying time. Throw in instruction, the lighted kneeboard, and all the other crud Sporty's makes you think you need, and the cost of getting a PPL quickly exceeds more than a kid could make in a lifetime of mowing lawns.
 
infotango said:
Give me a break.
It has nothing to do with motivation, electronic toys or anything else.

Kids don't fly because they can't afford it. Period.

An hour of a rental 172 costs around 130 here. That's more coin than most kids can imagine making, let alone spending on ONLY an hour of flying time. Throw in instruction, the lighted kneeboard, and all the other crud Sporty's makes you think you need, and the cost of getting a PPL quickly exceeds more than a kid could make in a lifetime of mowing lawns.
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I think those who do not believe it is the money are probably people who have enough of it that is not exactly a priority item for them. People who have good jobs or trust funds to get them by.

I believe many of those people would be astounded at the number of middle class Americans who have to exist on tight budgets, clip coupons, and shop at places like Wall Mart to maintain the appearance of doing OK in todays economy.

The simple fact remains, yachting and flying are endeavors of the upper middle class and the wealthy. Sure there are many pilots and sailors scrounging together enough to engage in these activities. They purchase or rent used boats and planes and somehow pull it off. These people are truly motivated for who knows what reasons, but few people have that motivation to do without, so they can fly or sail.

I don't care what the "experts" claim, the biggest reason for the declining G.A. community is the sheer cost of it. Flying is not a pastime for the masses, although the industry wishes it was.

Between costs, qualifying through medicals, testing, and the endless regulating, it is not something on very many peoples bucket list.

John
 
John Baker said:
The simple fact remains, yachting and flying are endeavors of the upper middle class and the wealthy. Sure there are many pilots and sailors scrounging together enough to engage in these activities. They purchase or rent used boats and planes and somehow pull it off. These people are truly motivated for who knows what reasons, but few people have that motivation to do without, so they can fly or sail.
John
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Very true. I'm sure if we did an honest income poll, we'd find 70% or more would be classified as upper-middle or higher.

There would be a few on the lower end, but -- as you say -- those would be some of us who have scrimped, saved, borrowed, or gone without so we can fly.
 
Everskyward said:
I'm not sure that the attitude that some people have displayed here is going to win them any points with the youth they are trying to inspire. The electronic world is a fact of life and many people enjoy what it can bring to their lives, ironically a lot of people, young and old, who post here. We are not talking face to face, after all.
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Exactly. And I think a lot of the posters here are dramatically overstating the amount of time young people are spending on electronic things. I bet they sound like their parents sounded with LP records, FM radio, color TV, MTV, and so on.

Kids already have their parents telling them what to do and not do, and one sure way to not make a connection with the kids they want to "help" is to add to the preaching...


Trapper John
 
John Baker said:
middle class Americans who have to exist on tight budgets, clip coupons, and shop at places like Wall Mart to maintain the appearance of doing OK in todays economy.
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Actually we are pretty easy to spot at your local airfield.

We are the adults watching the planes take off and land from the other side of the fence.

We are the ones that will gladly ferry planes out of Florida when a hurricane approaches for the joy of flying.

Will gladly eat Ramen noodles for the next month in order to sqeeze in a few extra flying hours.
 
Kelvin said:
Heck yeah...fly them...

Here is my friend's son, Jerald...first flight, four years old...his dad is a police officer. He wanted to be a police officers till I let him "drive" the plane. Now he wants to be a pilot. He is still talking about this flight two weeks later. Looks like the flight made quite an impression on him.

One kid at a time is my suggestion. If you see someone with a genuine interest, give them the gift of flight.
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I LOVE the smiles you captured on their faces!
 
My Uncle Art gave me my first airplane ride in a J-3 when I was about 10. That did it for me. Rode my bike to the little airport 7 miles away, spent lazy summer afternoons watching airplanes, eventually pumped gas in trade for lessons.....
 
infotango said:
Give me a break.
It has nothing to do with motivation, electronic toys or anything else.

Kids don't fly because they can't afford it. Period.

An hour of a rental 172 costs around 130 here. That's more coin than most kids can imagine making, let alone spending on ONLY an hour of flying time. Throw in instruction, the lighted kneeboard, and all the other crud Sporty's makes you think you need, and the cost of getting a PPL quickly exceeds more than a kid could make in a lifetime of mowing lawns.
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When I was young, my mom barely made ends meet. But, I had a burning desire to achieve and put everything I could save towards flying. That got me about an hour per month. 10 Years ago, I took my kids for a Young Eagles flight. They thought it was cool, but never seemed interested. Now, that I purchased my first airplane, they all have gained an interest. I asked them why they never showed an interest before. They said that they thought we could never afford it...
 
David_L_Wilson said:
Wow, I did not know you had such a low opinion of me and my work. I guess some people only care about themselves. I make no money advocating youth in aviation. I thought your video was inspiring, that was all. However, you are entitled to your opinion. In future you may consider ignoring my posts. Best of luck with your superior life and morals.
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Huh?
You asked. She answered. Both, graciously.
 
David_L_Wilson said:
Wow, I did not know you had such a low opinion of me and my work. I guess some people only care about themselves. I make no money advocating youth in aviation. I thought your video was inspiring, that was all. However, you are entitled to your opinion. In future you may consider ignoring my posts. Best of luck with your superior life and morals.
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Diana is an incredible woman and respected member of our community so we would all appreciate it if you maturely accept her pleasant responses to your questions and treat her with the same respect that we all do. There is likely a valid reason for her choice to not include her video on your website, in fact many different ones I can think of off the top of my head. Your post above does not reflect what our community stands for and I hope you reconsider the words you use in future posts when speaking about a longtime, dedicated member of our group.

Respectfully,
Jason
 
David_L_Wilson said:
Wow, I did not know you had such a low opinion of me and my work. I guess some people only care about themselves. I make no money advocating youth in aviation. I thought your video was inspiring, that was all. However, you are entitled to your opinion. In future you may consider ignoring my posts. Best of luck with your superior life and morals.
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That was interesting.

HPNPilot1200 said:
Diana is an incredible woman and respected member of our community so we would all appreciate it if you maturely accept her pleasant responses to your questions and treat her with the same respect that we all do. There is likely a valid reason for her choice to not include her video on your website, in fact many different ones I can think of off the top of my head. Your post above does not reflect what our community stands for and I hope you reconsider the words you use in future posts when speaking about a longtime, dedicated member of our group.

Respectfully,
Jason
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Thank you, Jason. :) You are very positive, and quite articulate. And you are one of the reasons that I have the "glass is half full" view of youth in aviation. :)
 
Diana said:
That was interesting.

Thank you, Jason. :) You are very positive, and quite articulate. And you are one of the reasons that I have the "glass is half full" view of youth in aviation. :)
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I am sorry, but being told that a person "does not want to be associated with my work", I take that in a negitve way. If poster had said, "I would prefer that you did not use my video on your website", I consider it to be be a polite way to say no.

I mean come on folks. I am always getting painted to be a negitive person and a pain on this web board. My God, I was only promoting what I and you all love. I am not selling anything. Many many people have enjoyed my Oshkosh pictures. 251 people have enjoyed my pictures.
 
David_L_Wilson said:
I am sorry, but being told that a person "does not want to be associated with my work", I take that in a negitve way. If poster had said, "I would prefer that you did not use my video on your website", I consider it to be be a polite way to say no.

I mean come on folks. I am always getting painted to be a negitive person and a pain on this web board. My God, I was only promoting what I and you all love. I am not selling anything. Many many people have enjoyed my Oshkosh pictures. 251 people have enjoyed my pictures.
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There are a host of reasons why someone wouldn't want media used on someone else's site, and it's somewhat presumptuous to not at least consider that (a private message requesting a link, whatever would have caused less problems, IMHO).

Anyway, many folks on this board already do more than promote by doing -- in Young Eagles, CAP, Explorers, and just taking kids they know up for an airplane ride.

Promotion is certainly important, but it's only a down payment.
 
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David_L_Wilson said:
Wow, I did not know you had such a low opinion of me and my work. I guess some people only care about themselves. I make no money advocating youth in aviation. I thought your video was inspiring, that was all. However, you are entitled to your opinion. In future you may consider ignoring my posts. Best of luck with your superior life and morals.
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Very uncool David. VERY uncool. :nono:
 
A long time ago when I was an airline manager at a medium-size city,
I got a phone call from a middle-school teacher wanting to bring a bunch of kids out to the airport for a tour. I graciously accepted the challenge and set up a bunch of neat stuff with my friends around the field. We got a tour of the tower, the bag make-up and baggage claim innards, computer room, heavy equipment room (snow plows, fire trucks) and sat them down in the first class section of an airliner and served cokes and cookies and milk. I got to talking to the teacher(s) and one thing led to another and I ended up offering plane rides in the C182. To whatever students the teacher chose.

I ended up giving airplane rides to select "at-risk" kids. The first time, there were four kids, so we made two trips. The briefing was that she was in charge of the kids and I was in charge of the airplane. So we took two kids at a time, with me and one teacher. While one group was flying, a CFI friend gave a ground tour, showing off a C152, ground school classroom, maintenance shop, and other cool stuff. We put an emphasis on what kind of stuff someone should learn in school to be a pilot. Math, science, etc.

I did this for a couple of years until I was transferred to another city. I got a great deal of satisfaction from the flights and loved seeing the kids faces, as for most of them, it was their first flight of any kind. Everyone had permission slips and signed liability waivers. No one ever got sick. No one ever complained, no one ever sued. I have no idea if any of those kids ever pursued an aviation career or even if they got their acts together scholastically, but one of the teachers ended up taking flying lessons and got her Private.. <G>

There are things pilots can do to interest kids in aviation.
 
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Hey Guys, it was the general opinion of the Management Council that Mr. Wilson's post was inappropriate and was deleted. However it was quoted in subsequent posts. Lets move on and let the Management Council address the issue internally.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Very uncool David. VERY uncool. :nono:
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I don't want to be associated with you Tango Whiskey. How does that make feel?

What if I said I don't agree with you but we are both intitled to our opinions.

Which of these statements are polite and respectful?

I only ask to be treated with respect. Telling me you want no association with me hurts my feelings, though it is their right. However don't expect me to be happy about it.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Hey Guys, it was the general opinion of the Management Council that Mr. Wilson's post was inappropriate and was deleted. However it was quoted in subsequent posts. Lets move on and let the Management Council address the issue internally.
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Yes, lets erase the whole post. I am sorry I even brought up the subject.
 
David_L_Wilson said:
I don't want to be associated with you Tango Whiskey. How does that make you feel?
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It's no skin off my back. Got plenty of friends, and I don't expect I'd be able to please all the people all the time. Sorry you got your feelers hurt, really. But I'm not going to waste wind arguing with you over the semantics of Lady Diana's reply. If you ever have the pleasure of meeting her in person, as I and others here have, I suspect you'll chastise yourself for reading ill will, snarkiness, or whatever you wish to characterize her public reply to her public question as.

She didn't get verbose in her reply.... but she's not obligated to do so, either. If you must assume intent, assume the intent was not intentionally mean spirited. It makes you a better man.
 
My apologies for posting after Greg's management post. Was posting from my Droid... slow, with time taken to measure words.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
It's no skin off my back. Got plenty of friends, and I don't expect I'd be able to please all the people all the time. Sorry you got your feelers hurt, really. But I'm not going to waste wind arguing with you over the semantics of Lady Diana's reply. If you ever have the pleasure of meeting her in person, as I and others here have, I suspect you'll chastise yourself for reading ill will, snarkiness, or whatever you wish to characterize her public reply to her public question as.

She didn't get verbose in her reply.... but she's not obligated to do so, either. If you must assume intent, assume the intent was not intentionally mean spirited. It makes you a better man.
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I hope you know TangoWhiskey that I was only using you as an example. I consider all to be my respected fellow aviator peers.
 
EAA Chapter 838 from Racine has sponsored an Explorer Post for over 30 years. Exploring is open to 12-21 year old high school students, and it is co-ed. Our Post has been volunteering at Oshkosh/ AirVenture for over 30 years as well. Our Explorers volunteer along with about 125 other Explorers and advisors from 10 different states each year. Please go to www.aviationexplorerbase.com and check it out. Check the video link on the home page showing what our Explorers do. We help park Homebuilt Aircraft and do crowd control for that area as well.
 
Ken from Explorer Base said:
EAA Chapter 838 from Racine has sponsored an Explorer Post for over 30 years. Exploring is open to 12-21 year old high school students, and it is co-ed. Our Post has been volunteering at Oshkosh/ AirVenture for over 30 years as well. Our Explorers volunteer along with about 125 other Explorers and advisors from 10 different states each year. Please go to www.aviationexplorerbase.com and check it out. Check the video link on the home page showing what our Explorers do. We help park Homebuilt Aircraft and do crowd control for that area as well.
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I don't see any issues with linking this site to mine. Hopefully it will motivate others to do the same.
 
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