you're number 2...

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rdill

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rdill
Hey y'all, I'm a relatively new private pilot and wonder if you might enlighten me on whether I or the ATC (or both) screwed up here. Flying into a busy executive airport in class C, VFR, daytime, and the comms went like this;

Initial setup is I'm 5nm east, inbound for full stop, about 300 ft above pattern alt. Had flight following before entering the class C, continued with same squawk all the way in. Call sign was used in all comms.

ATC to me: Enter a left base for 19.

Me: Wilco, left base for 19. (continue descent to pattern alt, and maintain my heading, since he already had me on heading for the left base)

ATC to me: (at this point I am about 2nm from my turn to final) you'll be #2 after the traffic on downwind.

Me: Understand #2 after traffic on downwind, I am currently on left base, looking for traffic.

(It was unclear to me at this point whether the guy on downwind was a slow plane flying a tight pattern and in front of me, or a turbine above and behind me. Soon, I was at my turn, runway is clear, I see no traffic anywhere)

Me: I'm turning final, I still do not have traffic in sight.

ATC: (pause...) Traffic is on short final you are #2

Me: (realizing he has us reversed) I am the plane on short final, do I have permission to land or do you need me to go around?

ATC: go ahead and land, you must have cut him off

Me: Roger, continuing.

ATC to me: (i'm on rollout) expedite exiting runway

Me: Roger .... clear all runways. (other guy lands)

I guess I'm not clear how this can happen when we both have unique squawk codes. I also am unsure why in class C space there was an apparent expectation for me take the initiative to maneuver to position myself behind traffic that I was ahead of. I had been flying vectors given to me by ATC thus far, and I know I can take action to avoid imminent danger but normally one shouldn't just break off and do a 360 for spacing on their own accord right?

Thanks for the help!
 
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With a tower NEVER do a 360 on your own. You didn't seem to screw up from my perspective.
 
Not all towers have radar, however I would have expected a Class C to have it but it is possible they were not using radar for separation and lost track of where you were. It happens. I have had similar experiences.

edit. I want to add one big thing. Think about the accident in Frederick MD between the helicopter and the Cirrus. Don't ever assume the instructions a tower gives you should ever make you focus any less out the window for traffic.
 
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rdill said:
Hey y'all, I'm a relatively new private pilot and wonder if you might enlighten me on whether I or the ATC (or both) screwed up here. Flying into a busy executive airport in class C, VFR, daytime, and the comms went like this;

Initial setup is I'm 5nm west, inbound for full stop, about 300 ft above pattern alt. Had flight following before entering the class C, continued with same squawk all the way in. Call sign was used in all comms.

ATC to me: Enter a left base for 19.

Me: Wilco, left base for 19. (continue descent to pattern alt, and maintain my heading, since he already had me on heading for the left base)
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Hmmmm....
 
You came from the west and tower had you enter a left base for 19?
 
It's important to listen to all ATC calls especially near an airport. Controllers can and do make mistakes, they still drive home at the end of their shift. ;) I am not bashing controllers, they do a great job 99.995% of the time, but as PIC you need to be aware of the other traffic and it's relative position to you and the airport. When you were told you were #2, he told you where the traffic was located, you should tell him whether or not you have the traffic in sight. The controller should have made sure you had the traffic in sight or should have made certain you were separated, possibly calling your turn to final.
No, you didn't screw up. :D
 
Where your failure was is not indicating to ATC that you were 'negative traffic' after a couple of scans. If you are downwind in the pattern #2, you don't turn unless you either have the traffic visual, or ATC calls your turn. You don't always see them, but if you don't, you never do anything the can put you on base or final in front of them.

In the pattern you look for a couple of seconds and if you don't see them, key up "negative contact on leading traffic." and they'll point them out or call your turn.
 
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If you need clarification on anything from ATC, ask for it immediately.
 
sorry that should have said i was 5nm east, heading west
 
rdill said:
sorry that should have said i was 5nm east, heading west
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That makes a lot more sense. Then the only issue becomes a matter of making a final turn without knowing where leading traffic was at. I am curious as to where he was at when your base intersected the downwind that he was on.
 
ATC does make errors on occasion. I've seen tail numbers interchanged before.

I don't know if the squawk code is visible in the tower. I thought that was for Approach.

It seems really strange to have base traffic behind downwind, unless the base is REALLY far out.

I don't think you did much if anything wrong, perhaps aside from not speaking up earlier. I wouldn't suggest turning final before having the traffic in sight. But if you don't, you do need to inform ATC about it right away. Preferably, you had done this earlier, before even crossing downwind.

One possibility I don't think you've considered is that the traffic might have been on the RIGHT downwind. It can be much harder to spot.
 
Henning said:
Where your failure was is not indicating to ATC that you were 'negative traffic' after a couple of scans.
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The way I read his post, he did tell them he did not have the traffic.

If correct then I'd say tower lost track and confused the two.
 
Henning said:
Where your failure was is not indicating to ATC that you were 'negative traffic' after a couple of scans. If you are downwind in the pattern #2, you don't turn unless you either have the traffic visual, or ATC calls your turn. You don't always see them, but if you don't, you never do anything the can put you on base or final in front of them.

In the pattern you look for a couple of seconds and if you don't see them, key up "negative contact on leading traffic." and they'll point them out or call your turn.
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But OP was never on downwind. ATC had them enter the pattern already on left base.
 
acrophile said:
But OP was never on downwind. ATC had them enter the pattern already on left base.
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Ok, I thought he entered on DW, but it's immaterial to being #2. No matter what ATC is saying, unless in IMC you're still see and avoid, and if you don't see them, you don't enter the path you expect them. If I was coming in on extended base, and didn't have traffic, and ATC wasn't calling it for me, I would turn out on the down wind line before getting to final. I've had enough 'lost' traffic reappear far too close to risk it with never seen traffic.
 
Henning said:
Ok, I thought he entered on DW, but it's immaterial to being #2. No matter what ATC is saying, unless in IMC you're still see and avoid, and if you don't see them, you don't enter the path you expect them. If I was coming in on extended base, and didn't have traffic, and ATC wasn't calling it for me, I would turn out on the down wind line before getting to final. I've had enough 'lost' traffic reappear far too close to risk it with never seen traffic.
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I agree with your philosophy, but I'm not sure about your specific advice in this situation. An unauthorized turn to downwind might increase your exposure to collision if #1 is still coming up behind you. I'd say either continue with the pattern, or start a go-around.
 
acrophile said:
I agree with your philosophy, but I'm not sure about your specific advice in this situation. An unauthorized turn to downwind might increase your exposure to collision if #1 is still coming up behind you. I'd say either continue with the pattern, or start a go-around.
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How is #1 coming up behind you?
 
Cuz if OP is in fact #1 when controller thinks he's #2, then the original #1 is coming up his a$$ if OP turns downwind in line w/ the other plane.
 
Henning said:
How is #1 coming up behind you?
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#1 was somewhere on downwind, #2 was on left base.

I had a similar experience recently at a Class D airport (with radar). Tower had me enter the pattern from a long left base, to follow a plane on downwind. I reported negative contact a couple of times. By the time tower told me that my traffic was midfield, I saw it as I crossed in front of it (I was about a mile ahead of it). Tower then re-sequenced me as #1.
 
I was trained (and would like ronachamps opinion) that at a towered airport and am told Cleared to land #2 behind _______. I should respond either a) looking for traffic or b) traffic in sight, #2 cleared to land.

Meaning, I've got them so I'm cleared, and if I don't have them I'm looking and report when I do have them at which time cleared.
 
thanks for all the responses... just wanted to make sure i captured a lesson if there was one. sounds like the take-away is just to be more forceful / repetitive in communicating negative contact. I suppose the conservative approach would have been to immediately execute go around upon the turn to final since confusion existed. to answer your Q skydog, the first call I remember hearing from "#1" was when he acknowledged being resequenced to #2 when I was short final.
 
iflyvfr said:
Cuz if OP is in fact #1 when controller thinks he's #2, then the original #1 is coming up his a$$ if OP turns downwind in line w/ the other plane.
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If you're flying extended base, and turn to join the downwind course, you would be beyond the expected turn of the #1 plane who should be turning to the heading you're leaving.

Speeds of course would matter, but if you're both in "pattern speeds" and turning standard or better, and you've got tower watching, I think Henning's approach is sound. (Please don't count the if's)
 
I will ALWAYS call to tower "...still negative contact on traffic" before turning base or final and if downwind will ask them to call my base if traffic is not in sight.

I do not see him so I wanna be sure to avoid him.
 
rdill said:
thanks for all the responses... just wanted to make sure i captured a lesson if there was one. sounds like the take-away is just to be more forceful / repetitive in communicating negative contact. I suppose the conservative approach would have been to immediately execute go around upon the turn to final since confusion existed. to answer your Q skydog, the first call I remember hearing from "#1" was when he acknowledged being resequenced to #2 when I was short final.
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Not really, once you are on short final your best move is to land as long as you can and keep your speed up getting clear of the runway.
 
rdill said:
I suppose the conservative approach would have been to immediately execute go around upon the turn to final since confusion existed.
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Not necessarily without CLEAR communication with tower. If you cut him off (regardless of fault) and you execute a go around right into a climb...guess what the guy you just cut off could be be doing to avoid you?...the same go around.
 
Controller lost the "pic" and blew the sequence calling you #2. You were told #2 following #1 on downwind. You turned final not knowing if #1 was still downwind, had turned base or had already turned final. The hairs on your neck should have been standing up by then. Base usually comes after downwind. You, already on base, following traffic still on downwind doesn't fit. If you're on a base to a very long final, then maybe it does. The pieces didn't fit. Like others have already said, SPEAK UP. COMMUNICATE
 
rolivi said:
I was trained (and would like ronachamps opinion) that at a towered airport and am told Cleared to land #2 behind _______. I should respond either a) looking for traffic or b) traffic in sight, #2 cleared to land.



Meaning, I've got them so I'm cleared, and if I don't have them I'm looking and report when I do have them at which time cleared.
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You're cleared to land whether or not you see them at all. The controller is saying the sequence will work out such that he's willing to hang his hat on it and clear you to land.

Whether it's wise to proceed if you never see them, or whether you should ask if you're still cleared to land, if you never saw them, is up to you.

Your method isn't necessarily a bad way to think of it, but I've had controllers clear me to land "number two" when I was ten miles out in small town flyover state airports while "number one" was coming up on the numbers. I never saw them land and if they were quick to their parking spot they could be shut down and out of the airplane before I got there.

Controller can also cancel the landing clearance at any time if it isn't going to work out. Have seen that happen. Also heard a controller and pilot have that same thought simultaneously and block each other perfectly.

One canceling the landing clearance, the other asking if they were still cleared to land.

That one was worth a quick "blocked" when they both sat there waiting for the other to reply.
 
MAKG1 said:
ATC does make errors on occasion. I've seen tail numbers interchanged before.

I don't know if the squawk code is visible in the tower. I thought that was for Approach.

It seems really strange to have base traffic behind downwind, unless the base is REALLY far out.

I don't think you did much if anything wrong, perhaps aside from not speaking up earlier. I wouldn't suggest turning final before having the traffic in sight. But if you don't, you do need to inform ATC about it right away. Preferably, you had done this earlier, before even crossing downwind.

One possibility I don't think you've considered is that the traffic might have been on the RIGHT downwind. It can be much harder to spot.
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There is training going on in towers too which could have been a possibility.

The squawk code isn't "visible" unless the controller slews on it and "clicks" to see what you're code is. More importantly, on the scope you should have a data tag which depicts your call sign, speed, altitude, etc. Class C towers use the same data tag as the approach control and can change the tags* when necessary. A lot of the time the scope in the tower is slaved directly from the scope in the approach control.

Sounds to me like the controller thought he was talking to the other guy when he was talking to you or vice versa. I'm glad you're okay.

*edit - meaning change the information on the tag if necessary such as type approach, landing, type aircraft if someone put it in wrong...things like that.
 
If I were on 5-mile base, and told I was #2, I'd be speaking up if I got within a mile of the downwind leg and had not spotted #1. I don't want to get to the intersection of the downwind leg and the base leg without knowing #1's position. If you spoke up prior to crossing downwind with negative contact for the traffic, the tower would have like re-sequenced you at that point and you could proceed as normal.

There was no harm/no foul this time, but the big sky theory doesn't always work out in your favor, especially in the vicinity of an airport. Next time speak up!
 
Worth a watch if you haven't seen this yet.

Cirrus pilot entered the pattern following what he thought was ATC instructions, but got panicked and spun in when ATC sent confusing and rushed commands regarding a plane on final behind him. Similar to your situation, except for more severe communication issues between pilot and tower.
 
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There are a couple possible crisis points in this scenario. One is where the base leg that one plane is on intersects the downwind leg of the other plane. The second is on the base to final turn. Of course, when both are on final with one descending on top of the other is another concern.

There is the possibility that in this case, ATC made the call that the aircraft on downwind would be able to get turned to final before the aircraft on the extended base entered the normal pattern. This could quickly fail if the downwind plane flies a wide and long pattern and/or flies it real slow. It could also fail if the guy on base is faster or if he is actually closer than the controller thinks he is.

Regardless in a case like this if you are #2, you MUST see #1 before intersecting the downwind. If you don't see traffic called by ATC, say so. Also, always listen to calls to and form the other aircraft.

Sounds like in this case, three links in the chain might have broken; ATC, #1 and #2, but that is just an assumption on my part. Luckily it did not result in an accident.
 
woodchucker said:
Worth a watch if you haven't seen this yet.

Cirrus pilot entered the pattern following what he thought was ATC instructions, but got panicked and spun in when ATC sent confusing and rushed commands regarding a plane on final behind him. Similar to your situation, except for more severe communication issues between pilot and tower.
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Unless ATC tells me to head straight for the numbers, I still fly in accordance with the last instruction - in this case, still flying to midfield downwind, and flying a regular pattern.
 
How do you word a call to the tower if you think (or are sure) that they have mixed you up with another plane? I'm looking for specific wording to not **** them off.
 
orange said:
How do you word a call to the tower if you think (or are sure) that they have mixed you up with another plane? I'm looking for specific wording to not **** them off.
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Tower, this is N1234, we are left base approaching final, negative contact, please confirm we are number TWO to land.
 
SkyDog58 said:
There are a couple possible crisis points in this scenario. One is where the base leg that one plane is on intersects the downwind leg of the other plane. [...]

Regardless in a case like this if you are #2, you MUST see #1 before intersecting the downwind. If you don't see traffic called by ATC, say so. Also, always listen to calls to and form the other aircraft.
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Depending on how wide a pattern #1 is flying, the downwind-to-base intersection could have come almost immediately after OP's initial report to ATC of negative traffic.

Similarly, in my own case (described above), my report of negative traffic did not elicit any new instruction prior to my intersecting the downwind.

So what do you recommend at that point?
 
orange said:
How do you word a call to the tower if you think (or are sure) that they have mixed you up with another plane? I'm looking for specific wording to not **** them off.
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I've used something like: "Nxxxx at <location> negative contact #1, am I still #2?"

And there is always a time and place for plain english. I don't worry too much if tower gets snippy with me - at least I know I have their attention.

There were a few times when I was pretty sure tower forgot about me. And I'm pretty sure there have been times they've gotten me confused with another, keeping a good situational awareness and a simple question usually clears that up.

There is only one time that I do remember they got me confused with another airplane. On that occasion, I was straight in from about 10 miles out, called my class D tower, was told to report 2 mile final. A few minutes later I was told "clear to land". I knew I was still nearly 8 miles out and this was pretty unusual at this airport to be cleared that far away. I radioed back, "8 South, am I still cleared to land?" Tower asked me again for my position, then exploded on the air. Someone else had entered the pattern without talking, was on about a 2 mile final, and tower thought that was me. That tower controller was really mad. I wanted so much to hear the rest of the conversation, but they switched frequencies once he landed and I was doing a touch and go so stayed on with tower and didn't get to hear the yelling with whoever was doing it.
 
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