Your Aviation Education

[Bones]

I was munching on some chips and salsa the other day with a newly minted CFI buddy of mine, and we were discussing things that we wished our CFIs had taught us or taken a different approach with. Which is the subject of this post:

?-What things do you wish you would have learned better, differently, experienced, or would have enjoyed being exposed too or that either you missed out on with your CFI or that you wish your CFI would have covered with you or maybe you would have perferred a different approach to teaching?

(examples: more structured lesson, sim-engine failures to grass strips, actually IMC...whatever.)


I know it might be a challenge to think back to when you were a student working on your private and with hindsight being 20/20; I would love to hear some thoughts from everyone.

 

[Maverick]

When I was taking my primary flight training I had a really great instructor and I can't think of anything that I wish he would have covered more. He did things with me that were beyond the requirements such as spin training. I had some of the best experience in cross wind landings that I could have ever wanted. I can't remember him ever grabbing control away from me, he would talk me through everything very effectively. This was a guy who was doing flight training because it's what he wanted to do and not someone just trying to build time toward anther flying job. Teaching is what he liked and he was really good at it.

Now the instrument rating was another matter. I flew with four different instructors and I don't think any of the four had a real lesson plan. I felt like they were all just sort of winging it, no pun intended. The last instructor, the one who got me ready for the check ride probably did more for me but I wish he hadn't been afraid to fly in actual IFR. He would not do any training in actual conditions period. Don't worry, that was covered by a couple of the previous instructors.

I have an interest in becoming a CFII. If and when I do I will work to a syllabus and I will make certain the student understands the goals and objectives.

Jeannie

 

[SkyHog]

The only thing that I can think of that I wish my instructor had spent more time on (granted, I'm still very much a newbie, with just under 100 hours), is how to deal with clearance delivery. Should I ever need to talk to them, I'll have no idea what I'm doing unless I listen to other people for a few minutes.

 

[Brian Austin]

The only thing that I can think of that I wish my instructor had spent more time on (granted, I'm still very much a newbie, with just under 100 hours), is how to deal with clearance delivery. Should I ever need to talk to them, I'll have no idea what I'm doing unless I listen to other people for a few minutes.

Just listen from the ramp for a few minutes and take notes. When it's time, have a pen and paper handy to record the clearance. They don't like saying it twice, especially if it's a long one.

 

[EdFred]

The only thing that I can think of that I wish my instructor had spent more time on (granted, I'm still very much a newbie, with just under 100 hours), is how to deal with clearance delivery. Should I ever need to talk to them, I'll have no idea what I'm doing unless I listen to other people for a few minutes.

I'm sure you now know, but clearance delivery isn't much different than an initial call up. But I know what you mean. In fact, I've never dealt with clearance delivery. Not officially anyway. Ground control has doubled for them in the places I've been.

To the original question...hmmmm....oh, I know. I more intricate knowledge of the FARs and how I could have saved myself some time. Like the cross country requirements for commercial could have been taken care of in my primary training by flying a few more miles. But no, now I have to go back and WASTE money on having a CFI sit with me because my cross countries weren't long enough. Nevermind that I'll be doing 1/2 of my upcoming 4,000 mile XC by pure pilotage. Hard to go GPS direct when there's a big ridge of rock in the way. When I become a CFI, I will make sure to double up any requirement for my students that I can.
(Can you tell I'm a bit ****ed about that FAR?)

Other than that, hmmm...not sure. Can't think of anything else that I would have had my instructor go over (more) with me.

 

[Diana]

What things do you wish you would have learned better, differently, experienced

This is a great question Eric.

Well, flash back to when I was 15. My first CFI used part of our lesson time teaching me how to race cars at eye level down the highway in the Cessna 150 and how to hedgehop. It seemed like fun to me at the time, but I now know how idiotic and dangerous it was for him to do that, and to do that with me in the airplane.

Second round of instruction in my 30's. Had the best CFI in the world! (He was so good that I married him a few years later). He covered all the regular stuff and then also did more things at my request, like spins, landing at grass strips, etc. that I wanted to be able to do. He had me fly in crosswinds that kept everyone else on the ground when I was a student, and I am SO glad that he did. He taught me good judgement and safe and courteous flying, as well.

For the instrument training, I wish I would have experienced some actual IMC.

 

[EdFred]

Second round of instruction in my 30's.

In my 30's or in the 30's?


**Runs, hides, seals door on nuclear proof bunker**

 

[pete177]

I have an interest in becoming a CFII. If and when I do I will work to a syllabus and I will make certain the student understands the goals and objectives.
Jeannie

No, No, you dont understand. If you do that then you wont be able to string them along for the extra cash. My Lord, woman, what are you thinking

 

[Maverick]

No, No, you dont understand. If you do that then you wont be able to string them along for the extra cash. My Lord, woman, what are you thinking

Oh my God, you're so right. What was I thinking!!

Jeannie

 

[Diana]

In my 30's or in the 30's?

**Runs, hides, seals door on nuclear proof bunker**

Ya know that birthday cake that I WAS going to bake for you when you come to the farm in two weeks?

 

[EdFred]

Ya know that birthday cake that I WAS going to bake for you when you come to the farm in two weeks?

What'd I say?

 

[gibbons]

What things do you wish you would have learned better, differently, experienced, or would have enjoyed being exposed too or that either you missed out on with your CFI or that you wish your CFI would have covered with you or maybe you would have perferred a different approach to teaching?

When I was taking lessons and the earth was cooling, my instructor used the radio exactly two times and made me use it once. I didn't use the radio subsequent to that until I started my instrument training at the primary airport in Class C airspace. I wish he had worked more on that.

Everything we did was pilotage and I really didn't know how to use the VOR until I started my instrument rating. Knowing how to tune in a VOR and fly to it might have been handy.

AFAIK, he's still teaching the same way today.

 

[Michael]

My first instructor never clearly explained the landing phase for me. All I heard was flare. So I wasted a good 20 hours ballooning before a new instructor told me to fly the plane parallel to the runway first. then as it starts to settle, flare..slowly.
I wish I knew that before I wasted all that time. The first time it was explained to me, I nailed it, And I think a lot of new students can if they are taught the landing procedure that way.

 

[Bill]

?-What things do you wish you would have learned better, differently, experienced, or would have enjoyed being exposed too or that either you missed out on with your CFI or that you wish your CFI would have covered with you or maybe you would have perferred a different approach to teaching?

More gusty cross wind gnarly landing days. I still get spooked on higher x-wind days, and would love to work that out even more.

 

[silver-eagle]

My primary training took a very long time; 13 years. It was the usual problems of time and money. Building a career (not aviation related) and a family shifts your priorities a tad.
I wish the various instructors could have helped more. Maybe offer alternative times instead of the usual 9-5 (and I know IF I asked they just might have). And since there were a number of instructors, they all made the assumption the previous guy covered that.
A bit more work on reading and understanding the FARs. I often got 'read the chapter xx' but it wouldn't be followed up with a discussion. While I learned a lot flying around, much of that was not tied to the FARs I just read. Also, reading and understanding DUATs weather briefings. More discussion on NOTAMs.
More radio procedures. Especially, more about arriving aircraft. Not all are arriving VFR. The phrases used by IFR are confusing and since training is usually done on fair weather days, often times there is no IFR in the air.
Overall, I think my training was really good. In a few situations, it saved me and my aircraft. It has certainly made me an OLD pilot; reevaluating my personal minimums based on the flying I'm doing; and that is not a bad thing.

 

[Bill]

The only thing that I can think of that I wish my instructor had spent more time on (granted, I'm still very much a newbie, with just under 100 hours), is how to deal with clearance delivery. Should I ever need to talk to them, I'll have no idea what I'm doing unless I listen to other people for a few minutes.

I trained out of class C, so radio is no sweat. I actually got very VERY nervous the first few times I got to an uncontrolled airport. (Hey, what are these are these airplanes doing in Brownian motion?)

"clearance delivery, bugsmasher 123 with zulu requests vfr departure to the southeast at 3500, destination jzp, request flight following"

Done!

 

[RogerT]

I think they ought to raise the minimum PIC time to qualify for CFI to 10,000 hrs.

You know .. it does make a difference. For my primary training my CFI
was highly experienced. He'd flown Lears for a while for Bill Lear. Was a
very good pilot and most important a great teacher. And he was teaching
because he liked to .. it wasn't his full time profession. For my commercial
helicopter add-on and my initial CFI, my instructor was a high time pilot
who flew helicopters for a medical outfit and was also a long time
bush pilot in Peru. My CFI for my Commercial/Instrument was a younger
line CFI building time to move on. He was a good instructor and pilot, and
I had no problem passing the checkride. But I wish we'd spent more
time in actual IMC. To this day instrument flying is my biggest weakness.
I go in and out of currency and end up doing an IPC to get back legal.
Legal and proficient however are different.

 

[bbchien]

What'd I say?

I remember, Ed, when 50 seemed old. Well, now I'm there, and it IS old. Sigh.

 

[kath]

More grass fields!
More short fields!

(Unfortunately, both these are against FBO rules. And since my home airport has a 7000 foot runway, a 3000x50 runway seems really "short" and that ain't right.)

--Kath

 

[grattonja]

The only thing that I can think of that I wish my instructor had spent more time on (granted, I'm still very much a newbie, with just under 100 hours), is how to deal with clearance delivery. Should I ever need to talk to them, I'll have no idea what I'm doing unless I listen to other people for a few minutes.

We should teach all private pilot students CRAFT. Clearance, Route, Altitude, Frequency and Transponder. It is a chestnut for instrument training. But it applies to clearances given to VFR pilots from Clearance Delivery. My wife was struggling with clearances at ABE during her PP training, until I gave her that. The light bulb came on and she nailed the readbacks afterwards.

They always give them to you in this order, in my experience, no matter how abbreviated. Besides, you will need this little piece of information as you get your IR anyway.

Jim G

 

[grattonja]

I was lucky to have good CFIs in both PP and IR, so far. I would like to do some sim work sometime to experience what real instrument failure looks like on the panel, instead of just a covered over instrument. I was lucky to get a fair amount of actual time, including a GPS approach in actual where we flew it partial panel (I was flying well that day and Jared decided to let me do it).

I have never flown to a grass strip, as the rental folks have a rule of no grass strips for the skyhawks. I need to do that some time. I would like to spend some time on some really short strips, although my primary airport is 2400 feet. But 2K or less is better for really nailing the numbers.

All in all, I think I received good basic training. Now it is just a question of what I do with it.

Jim G

 

[Flyboy]

I think haveing a lack of a lesson plan during my primary wasn't too good. But we got through it. When I gto mi instrument they used the flight safety procedures and lesson plans (the flight school owner was a grad) and that was a big help. Breaking things into procdures has helped tremedously in my IFR flying.

 

[judypilot]

I remember, Ed, when 50 seemed old. Well, now I'm there, and it IS old. Sigh.

It is NOT! Age is a state of mind. (I'm 54, BTW, with intentions of being young until the day I keel over.) :cheerio:

On the original topic: I was another of those folks who had an incredibly good flight instructor. This guy was so professional that I assumed he was in his 20s (he looked younger, so that was as far as I pushed my guess, but he had the maturity and professionalism of someone even older). He was only 19! I've known 50-year-olds with far less professionalism.

So that means I can't remember anything that I wish he'd covered more, and getting my ticket in a Class C airspace took care of the radio issue.

It was my commercial instructor who was the dog. First, he would teach me wrong and then, when I would read the books and be confused, he took umbrage at my questions because I was challenging his authority (and probably his masculinity). Wish I'd learned more about aircraft systems, but I've since taken care of that by taking CPA's systems and procedures course (excellent, but they fill up with CPA members way ahead of time) and Mike Busch's Savvy Owner course (which I HIGHLY recommend--see savvyaviator.com).

My CFI instructor could have covered "the ways student pilots try to kill you" a bit more, although the one time a student seriously tried to kill me, the training kicked in just fine.

Overall, I've been incredibly lucky, and I include mountain-flying instructors in that. Oh yes, that's one thing my private pilot instructor probably could have covered a little bit more, but we did cover DA extensively (you have to in Arizona) and Sparky Imeson's excellent book tided me over until I could get with an MF instructor.

Judy

 

[MSmith]

Let's see. I'm only at 100 hours or so, only 25 past checkride last October (family finances have prevented a lot of flying since then).

I had two instructors, and a bunch of things fell through the cracks when I changed instructors just pre-solo. So, if you're picking up a student who has already had instruction, I would suggest sitting down for 1/2 hour with the PTS and checking off the things that he's done or had demonstrated.

What would I have liked?

1. Some Class C or B time - we never did that. I was fairly good at dealing with ATC, so I did fine when I ventured into Class C on my own, but some Class B time would be nice.
2. At least demonstrate an actual grass strip landing and takeoff. I can understand not wanting me to do it, but it would be a good experience.
3. Reinforce basic skills during the XC phase. For me it was basically get post-solo, then do XC, then come back and work on the airwork stuff (stalls, slow flight, steep turns) in the pre-checkride prep hours.
4. Fly to more airports during the pre-solo phase. My pre-solo practice was at home, the airport 2NM away, or at a single controlled field. That would have kept me more interested during the "let's do lots of patterns" stage.

Gotta get ready for a meeting - I'll post more later if I have time.

 

[Diana]

It was my commercial instructor who was the dog. First, he would teach me wrong and then, when I would read the books and be confused, he took umbrage at my questions because I was challenging his authority (and probably his masculinity).

Gee, I think I met him a few times along the way.

I have had some crummy instructors and I wasn't even going to go there. There is a long list of things I found to be counter-productive in their approach, techniques, and attitude.

 

[gismo]

Oh my God, you're so right. What was I thinking!!

Not only that, but when the word gets out, you'll have so many students you won't have time for anything but flying!

 

[gismo]

Everything we did was pilotage and I really didn't know how to use the VOR until I started my instrument rating. Knowing how to tune in a VOR and fly to it might have been handy.

AFAIK, he's still teaching the same way today.

Some otherwise good instructors seem to think that training is about cranking out pilots just like themselves. They only teach what they (the CFI) believe important without considering what a student actually wants or needs to learn beyond the basics. I think a good instructor should take the time to understand his student's perspective and adjust the training to suit.

 

[azure]

Both of my primary CFIs were so good that I would really have to dig to find things to complain about. I can't think of anything that wasn't covered really well - since I had a total of about 125 hours of dual during my primary training something would have been really wrong if it wasn't! I could have used more instrument time - I went to the checkride with the minimum, plus about 1 hour actual thanks to my second CFI who took me into really hard IMC on a gray, overcast day. He also gave me spin training and made sure I knew how to do an emergency descent before turning me loose solo. Navigation with VORs, ADF, yeah GPS too, no problem. Grass strips too, in a 152 and a 150, with my first CFI. Radio work, I started at 57D (untowered), moved down to DET (Class D), then to 76G (untowered). We went into LAN (Class C) on a dual XC and I landed at TOL and FNT (both C) on my solo XCs. No class B, and I've yet to land at one. One thing, possibly I could have finished sooner had there been a syllabus, that was one thing neither of my CFIs provided. Probably because pre-solo, I had problems with my medical which meant we had to do things out of normal order, then post-solo, my second CFI saw his job as just getting me transitioned to the 172 and through my solo XCs to the checkride. But the main reason I took so long was lack of confidence, mine that is, so in the end it might not have made a difference.

Liz

 

[Dan Smith]

I have been generally happy with my instructors. The only "complaint" is common to both my first instructor as a student, and my first instructor for the commercial. In both cases, there was a tendency to jump into a new concept in the plane without any prep, either on the ground on in the air. Several times I would be walked through something (like a first takeoff, or a first lazy eight) without any "here's what we're going to do, here's how to do it, and here's why it's important". So you end up going through the motions, successfully or otherwise, without really gaining any knowledge until later. It wasn't really wasted time, but it could have been approached better.

Dan

 

[Diana]

there was a tendency to jump into a new concept in the plane without any prep, either on the ground on in the air.

Yes! And please don't do it when we are inverted and I can't hear what you're saying and have no idea what you are talking about because we didn't talk about it before, and then expect me to do what I can't hear you tell me to do while we are STILL inverted and my engine just quit.

 

[gismo]

?-What things do you wish you would have learned better, differently, experienced, or would have enjoyed being exposed too or that either you missed out on with your CFI or that you wish your CFI would have covered with you or maybe you would have preferred a different approach to teaching?

WRT the PPL the one thing I wished we'd covered was flying in marginal weather. I don't mean I wanted him to teach me how to scud run, rather I wanted to get some perspective on where to draw the line on deteriorating weather and turn back. Looking back after several VFR x/c trips, it seemed that if my CFI had taken me out on a marginal day towards poorer weather, I could have learned how to make the "discontinue" decision better. In fact, I think this whole concept of when (and how) to abort a flight was given scant attention and I came away with the expectation that you'd be able to determine prior to flight whether or not a trip could be completed, but once started there was no turning back.

As to the IR and other ratings, I think we covered the bases pretty well. I did get some actual IMC including real approaches to near minimums, plenty of sim time to learn the ADF, and a fairly good understanding of the system. Of course there's way more to learn than could ever be covered in any affordable training regime, but I think I was taught what was necessary.

 

[AdamZ]

First off I was fortunate I have had only two CFIs one for my primary and one for my IR. Both were in their mid 40s. I have no complaints about them but I would have liked to do more:

1) Short Fields - I trained at a class D airport with 7000 'and 5000' intersecting runways so it was hard to fake a short field and just pretend that the remaining last 3000' to 4500' of runway weren't' there. plus the school wouldn't let us take the planes into less than a 3000' strip

2) Soft Fields - we weren't allowed and again faking it on asphalt just don't cut it.

3) More X-Wind

4) I'd have liked to learn more about the planes performance ie throttle settings at various altitudes. How to read and interpret EGT gauges and Cyl head temp gauges

 

[Dan Smith]

Yes! And please don't do it when we are inverted and I can't hear what you're saying and have no idea what you are talking about because we didn't talk about it before, and then expect me to do what I can't hear you tell me to do while we are STILL inverted and my engine just quit.

Like I said, just like my first takeoff as a student pilot.

Dan

 

[Kyle Thornley]

I lucked out for the most part, although I had 4 seperate guys sitting right seat during my PPL, they were very good. The one that I did most of the time with took me through Detroit class B at night which was very good educationally, for radio communication purposes, not to mention very cool, also did spins and heavy crosswind training. The last one was just getting me through the hoops to prepare for the check ride, and unfortunately he assumed the other guy had done the aircraft logbook work. So although I knew the FAR's I had never actually looked up in th log where the ELT check was and when it would be due for that aircraft, which made for some uncomforatble silence in the oral. Wish we had sat down for about a half an hour to just talk about what I did know and what I needed to know.

My IR instructor was a professional instructor. The only thing he did (or wanted to do) and insisted on flying actual IMC. I remember my first time seeing a cloud come at me and how you had to fight the desire to duck or brace yourself for the impact, and how stupid I felt for having that thought. It also introduced me to the very real feeling of the leans, something I think you need to be ready for. Also had an actual AI failure which gave me great practice at partial panel, but that was due to my 25 year old aircraft and not the skills of the instructor.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I fired my first private pilot instructor, not because he wasn't paying attention when I asked him during preflight about some specifics of flight following radio lingo that I'd written down, but because he was evasive and in denial to both of us when it became obviuos in flight that he hadn't been listening at all to what I'd asked. A legend in his own mind. He was promptly replaced by a guy who'd served in the Navy A6 Prowler off carriers and had nothing to prove to anyone. We carried my training through IFR and commercial with no problems.

We used a syllabus, but when a unique situation presented itself, usually due to weather conditions or time factors, a break away from the syllabus was a given and yielded some of the best training scenarios. The real world of flight does NOT operate on a syllabus...

My best and fastest to complete training students are consistantly the ones who have a freshly completed ground test before or very early on in flight training, with all elements brought to full comprehension.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Chip,

What planet was this training given on ? How did you and all the other flight students possibly get by and new ones continue to get by the FAA ground testing and FAA flight check without using radio or VOR ???

When I was taking lessons and the earth was cooling, my instructor used the radio exactly two times and made me use it once. I didn't use the radio subsequent to that until I started my instrument training at the primary airport in Class C airspace. I wish he had worked more on that.

Everything we did was pilotage and I really didn't know how to use the VOR until I started my instrument rating. Knowing how to tune in a VOR and fly to it might have been handy.

AFAIK, he's still teaching the same way today.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

An apparently witty but totally erroneous quip once used in comment to my MVFR training with students was; "Practicing flight in MVFR is like practicing bleeding for surgery !" It was from a guy that didn't like being tossed around in the air or low ceilings, and without the skills to handle them, simple mindedly looking for excuses not to do it.

The combined hundreds of thousands of hours of experience of the AOPA Air Safety Foundation agrees with you on training in MVFR with an experienced CFI and it's something I include in my training syllabus. The student that doesn't want to fly in wind & clouds and says "I'll never take off in those conditions !" may be accurate in that staement, but has shown the need for further education in the speed of weather dynamics and the need for skills to fly out of them.

WRT the PPL the one thing I wished we'd covered was flying in marginal weather. I don't mean I wanted him to teach me how to scud run, rather I wanted to get some perspective on where to draw the line on deteriorating weather and turn back. Looking back after several VFR x/c trips, it seemed that if my CFI had taken me out on a marginal day towards poorer weather, I could have learned how to make the "discontinue" decision better. In fact, I think this whole concept of when (and how) to abort a flight was given scant attention and I came away with the expectation that you'd be able to determine prior to flight whether or not a trip could be completed, but once started there was no turning back.

As to the IR and other ratings, I think we covered the bases pretty well. I did get some actual IMC including real approaches to near minimums, plenty of sim time to learn the ADF, and a fairly good understanding of the system. Of course there's way more to learn than could ever be covered in any affordable training regime, but I think I was taught what was necessary.

 

[PoAdeleted5]

I wish my original CFI, long ago, had not fallen asleep while I was under the hood.

Oh, and I wish he would have taken me up on my many offers of mints, gum, etc. Whew, what breath.

 

[MSmith]

I had a little MVFR training. But just a little.

We were generally doing pattern work (not enough ceiling to go anywhere). In one case, my instructor had me go up above pattern altitude just high enough to find the edge of the cloud. Once I was in the soup, he had me on instruments descend back to below the soup. Then, we got on the radio to let everybody on the ground know where the ceiling REALLY was (as opposed to AWOS).

A few other times it was just really hazy in the summer in NJ. My instructor and I played "guess the visibility" so that I could see what different values looked like. This wasn't really MVFR - more like 6-7SM or better. I think my short solo XC was flown on a 9SM hazy day.

Just tucking into that cloud once was highly valuable - as it showed me not to fear being in the cloud (though I clearly don't WANT to be there before I get my instrument rating).

 

[Terry Miller]

> My best and fastest to complete training students are consistantly the ones who have a freshly completed ground test before or very early on in flight training, with all elements brought to full comprehension.


That has worked well for me also. I completed all the ground work and took the written exam before starting the flight training for the commercial, and did the same for the instrument. Having completed all the ground work gave me a leg up on the flight training, and the flight training kept me in the books to drive the previous ground schooling home.