You are responsible for your training

CharlieD3 said:
How so? Not arguing, just wondering what op said that is wrong.

That said, op spent a lot of verbiage to say not much.
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Tarheelpilot said:
How so?
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Our problem is fewer and fewer people are becoming pilots. Our roles diminish every year. It's bad lots of us give free rides to other people's children in the hopes they might step into the cockpit.

And the OP says "the student is responsible for everything" i.e. we wash our hands of any responsibility.

With that attitude we will see GA die in the US. Hopefully not in my lifetime, but it will
 
steingar said:
Our problem is fewer and fewer people are becoming pilots. Our roles diminish every year. It's bad lots of us give free rides to other people's children in the hopes they might step into the cockpit.

And the OP says "the student is responsible for everything" i.e. we wash our hands of any responsibility.

With that attitude we will see GA die in the US. Hopefully not in my lifetime, but it will
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The message of the OP was not to current pilots to not help new pilots, it was new pilots to help them be successful.
 
steingar said:
Our problem is fewer and fewer people are becoming pilots. Our roles diminish every year. It's bad lots of us give free rides to other people's children in the hopes they might step into the cockpit.

And the OP says "the student is responsible for everything" i.e. we wash our hands of any responsibility.

With that attitude we will see GA die in the US. Hopefully not in my lifetime, but it will
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That’s not what I took away from the original post. Not even a little bit. If that’s what he meant then I would agree with you.
 
???? A pedantic lecture on the intuitively obvious ??? Not sure why the post was necessary, and not seeing the utility - one of those "I happen to know what's best/how it should be, but the rest of you benighted pud knockers must be guided, else you'll eff up. . ."
 
steingar said:
Our problem is fewer and fewer people are becoming pilots. Our roles diminish every year. It's bad lots of us give free rides to other people's children in the hopes they might step into the cockpit.

And the OP says "the student is responsible for everything" i.e. we wash our hands of any responsibility.

With that attitude we will see GA die in the US. Hopefully not in my lifetime, but it will
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Yeah,
I'm afraid you're right about its demise. I hope you and I don't live to see it.

But, I don't think I read the tome from that perspective. He did put the onus more on the student perhaps, but in my mind, a student is PIC from day 1, with all the responsibilities and privileges of that.

Perhaps one of the reasons we see fewer kids 'stepping into the cockpit' is the increasing rate of entitlement among the younger generation.

A PPL is not a "participation trophy," it is earned. And "earning" anything seems to be getting rarer than hen's teeth, nowadays.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Sigh. Another "demise of aviation" subthread.

The demise of aviation will mostly be the result of pilots talking about the demise of aviation. Why would I want to start an activity when the current participants constantly say it's dying?
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Manual transmissions and roll up windows are virtually gone. Autonomous cars are on the road. Drone flying taxis are in the works. Military drones are controlled half a globe away.

Is aviation doomed to demise? As we now know it; without a doubt. It will be a slow process. Most of us in the vocation (or avocation) of it now may not see it dead and buried, but we will see many more changes to the freedom of flying (at least as we now know it).
 
steingar said:
Our problem is fewer and fewer people are becoming pilots. Our roles diminish every year. It's bad lots of us give free rides to other people's children in the hopes they might step into the cockpit.

And the OP says "the student is responsible for everything" i.e. we wash our hands of any responsibility.

With that attitude we will see GA die in the US. Hopefully not in my lifetime, but it will
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American society has gone through a lot of changes and the decline in piston aviation is a symptom.
 
Salty said:
We're going to have to disagree. I've worked personally with 2 instructors that have been through those check rides that have huge gaps in knowledge and skill that I can see, and I'm a low hours pilot that's only been through 2 check rides.
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A career in data science is not in your future. ;)
 
ByrdmanFL said:
School Teacher's in my area start around $40-$42K, have summers, weekends and holidays off with decent benefits. Most work a lot of extra hours, but at least they can make a living teaching. How many CFI's can get this and QOL?
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Instructors haven't spent four years in university. They might have had their first flight lesson six months before getting the CFI job.
 
From what I had to cover when I became an instructor: https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/publications/tp975-menu-5494.htm#introduction

Learning

6. No one ever learns except through their own activity and there is, strictly speaking, no such art as teaching, only the art of helping people to learn.

The instructional techniques described in this guide suggest actions that can be performed to stimulate student activity. These activities may be mental or physical and it is through this process of directed activity that students learn the skills and knowledge required to become good, safe pilots.
 
CharlieD3 said:
Manual transmissions and roll up windows are virtually gone. Autonomous cars are on the road. Drone flying taxis are in the works. Military drones are controlled half a globe away.

Is aviation doomed to demise? As we now know it; without a doubt. It will be a slow process. Most of us in the vocation (or avocation) of it now may not see it dead and buried, but we will see many more changes to the freedom of flying (at least as we now know it).
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As you say, it will be a sloooow process. You can start a career as a truck driver now, and you won't have any problem staying employed until retirement. I think because flying as recreation takes more commitment than, say, boating, it may likely decrease, but as a skill, self-fulfillment kind of thing, it'll be here. The soaring guys aren't likely to be interested in autonomous sailplanes, nor the acro guys. Or the low-and-slow, look out the windows from 1,000 AGL folks.

Fully, truly, ubiquitous, autonomous personal vehicles are decades away, whether surface or "flying cabs". I got a long intro from a company that is deeply involved in the arena, for commercial vehicles, and the remaining sensor, mapping, control, monitoring, and AI & ML issues are stupendous. Getting to fully autonomous is going to be a long haul - as in, stepping into a car, telling it to take you to work, and then going to sleep until you arrive.
 
Being willing to switch instead of feeling emotionally or financially invested is important too. My first instructor on our 2nd flight didn't pay any attention in the run up area when the flaps failed to move. It wasn't a life or death thing but his lack of awareness and attention really rubbed me the wrong way.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Instructors haven't spent four years in university. They might have had their first flight lesson six months before getting the CFI job.
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Maybe not, but if they truly desire to make a run at the majors, isnt a degree a requirement? Is 0 to CFI in 6 months common?

I dont know for sure, but I would think there are many CFI's with some college.
 
I saw nothing, nada, wrong with the OP's advice. He's not a bot; he has an ATP and single/multi CFII.

So he's a new poster. We all were at some point.
 
Stan Cooper said:
I saw nothing, nada, wrong with the OP's advice. He's not a bot; he has an ATP and single/multi CFII.

So he's a new poster. We all were at some point.
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I didn't see anything wrong with the advice either. Kind of a strange first, or almost first, post, is all... not that I'm one to call anyone ELSE strange. Just read as if a stranger walked into the middle of a cocktail party and decided to give a lecture.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Instructors haven't spent four years in university. They might have had their first flight lesson six months before getting the CFI job.
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I have spent more than four years at a university and yet I am expected to teach a ______ pilot candidate to a standard. I don’t see teachers held accountable for kids leaving school unable to read, yet my ticket is on the line if my students fail.
 
Landing Fees said:
I have spent more than four years at a university and yet I am expected to teach a ______ pilot candidate to a standard. I don’t see teachers held accountable for kids leaving school unable to read, yet my ticket is on the line if my students fail.
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True, except that you can decide when you feel your students are ready to take the exam. Teachers can't.... and a large percentage of their students don't want to be in school or learn in the first place. And they are held accountable, at least in NYS, if their students don't perform well on state exams. Not exactly an apt comparison. Sooo.. mostly not true, although I get what you are saying. I don't begrudge CFIs their props in the least. Pun intended.
 
Clip4 said:
Self study is not training. There is more to the knowledge required to be a good pilot than passing the FAA written with a high score.
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Just an anecdote to demonstrate the point, but I know of more than one person who got a 100% on the written and failed the oral part of the checkride pretty early in the process.
 
Stan Cooper said:
I saw nothing, nada, wrong with the OP's advice. He's not a bot; he has an ATP and single/multi CFII.

So he's a new poster. We all were at some point.
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I didn’t either. It’s too bad how this board can often times be less than welcoming to a new member.
 
midlifeflyer said:
. Another one I like because it can be done at first meeting - whether CFI, doctor, lawyer, plumber, whatever - is how they respond to questions. Do they seem even slightly annoyed by them or are they open and give satisfying explanations?
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I agree this one is a very useful filter for professionals.
 
I fully understood the OPs intention in his post and fully agree.

Prior to receiving my PPL, I was instructed by 7 instructors.
At first, I flew with whoever was available, those 4 were near perfect. 3 became airline captains, the other has an airport named for him.

The next was a different airport, poorly run, terrible safety atmosphere, no preflight required before flying, and I went to another airport for my next lesson.

New airport, the instructor owned the plane, and was very qualified and safety conscience. If the drive had not been too long, I would have done my licence with him.

Next instructor, excellent, went well beyond the minimum requirements, and check ride was a breeze. I flew additional time with him developing my instrument skills, not logable, he was a plain CFI, but did have an Instrument rating, plus a lot of Instrument flight time.

Started my Commercial and Instrument, the first instructor was a dunce, I knew how to fly instrument better than he, we were in disagreement repeatedly, and I asked for a different instructor. He was let go for failing his Instrument Instructor check ride for the 3rd time, and I got a new instructor. Again, problems, I think because he had more students than he wanted, so another instructor, similar problem, a third, still overworked, did not want another student. Next, a ride with the manager of the school. We got along fine, and he assigned me to a newly hired instructor, we hit it off from the start, and I passed both check rides first try, no issues.

As the OP said, student pilots should take responsibility for their training, and walk away from any instructor or school the is careless or bypasses any regulations that the student has learned from reading the regulations. The student should read the appropriate texts, and try to understand them.

I walked away from every unsatisfactory instructor I flew with, and received each of my certificates at near minimum time. Time with a poor instructor is wasted time and money.

7 excellent instructor, 5 bad ones, plus the manager. I demand good instruction, and look until I find it. Note that some of those instructors may have been 'good', but were not willing to give me good instruction.
 
As a newbie I have been attracted to this post like a moth to light. The idea of being responsible for my training is significant not only in flight and aviation, but every aspect of life. I appreciate the OP's intend and many of the comments that have followed. I want my head on a swivel right from the beginning.
 
EdFred said:
Yeah, I'd like to see the 1500 hour rule for CFI's also. The problem is, you are either a good teacher or you aren't. Experience is secondary in that regard.
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Yes, but then there would be a huge shortage of instructors.
 
Skypeace thank you for the kind and encouraging words. Best wishes for a long and satisfying association with aviation.
 
This place is not always welcoming to new posters or very nice to long time posters. I was really pleasantly surprised this was such a constructive thread.

That being said, I did interpret your post @jonvcaples as a bit preachy. Welcome your experience and constructive input here though. Constructive dialogue is why I came here a while back when the AOPA boards got nasty.

Read a bit like a sales pitch was coming, so I was happy not to see that.
 
jonvcaples said:
There are many questions about how to ensure the quality of your aviation training. Let's cut to the heart of things.

1-You and only you are responsible for your training! Surprised? Why? Your relationship with an instructor is, or should be, like those with other professionals like doctors, lawyers, and other people you pay to provide services and knowledge. If you are not comfortable with your instructor replace them! An instructor's job is to teach YOU how to be a pilot. How to manipulate the controls is only a small part of being a pilot. To succeed you must develop decision making, information processing, and a box of tools plus the ability to use the right tool to solve the problem at hand.

2-Finding a good instructor for you may take time. And, you may need to try several people to find the best for you. Sometimes you kiss a lot of frogs before finding your princess or prince. A partial list of criteria are: do you get along (smoker, poor hygiene, inadequate communication skills), do you brief and critique the lesson, are you given homework, and do you feel like you are treated as an individual.

3-What reference material does your instructor use? Beware someone who does everything extemporaneous! You should be provided a list of items such as the FAR/AIM, appropriate aeronautical charts and supplies (plotter, computer, etc.), PTS or ACH, and aircraft information (weight and balance, POH, equipment list). Does your instructor use these materials? If not then you probably need a new one.

Hope this helps!

Jon
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You mention a CFIs smoking or hygiene but make no mention of their experience?

I’d recommend a old leathery CFI who smells like the Marlboro man but has 10,000hrs spanning all sorts of flying, over a high and tight greenhorn CFI who wears perfume. YMMV, but I think experience should be VERY high on what to look for.


ByrdmanFL said:
IMO, to get good, career CFI's to stick around, the pay structure has to be close to the median wage for the area the CFI wants to live and teach or they are just there to do their time and move on.

School Teacher's in my area start around $40-$42K, have summers, weekends and holidays off with decent benefits. Most work a lot of extra hours, but at least they can make a living teaching. How many CFI's can get this and QOL?
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Could you imagine the fit their unions would throw if you mandated their teaching credential would be tied to each of their students like our certs are tied to our student pilots? :goofy:
 
Sure experience is important, but how do you evaluate it? Total flight hours, nope! Pass rate of their students? Better but not 100%. Reputation with DPEs? Again good but not perfect.

Consider how you are going to obtain the information. Civilian flight experience under part 91 cannot be verified. I can write anything in my log and there is no way for you to confirm or refute. I don't have to show you my log. Even if I did would you learn anything? Remember, the only times a pilot must report their time is upon request from competent authority and to show eligibility to undergo a test for a license or rating or currency.

The FAA does track a CFI's success rate and under some circumstances require a special checkride based on a history of poor performance by a pilot/instructor or their students. Unfortunately this information is not available to you.

Put forth the effort...ask around...pay attention to how the instructor communicates and works with you. There is no silver bullet or litmus paper test.
 
jonvcaples said:
Sure experience is important, but how do you evaluate it? Total flight hours, nope! Pass rate of their students? Better but not 100%. Reputation with DPEs? Again good but not perfect.

Consider how you are going to obtain the information. Civilian flight experience under part 91 cannot be verified. I can write anything in my log and there is no way for you to confirm or refute. I don't have to show you my log. Even if I did would you learn anything? Remember, the only times a pilot must report their time is upon request from competent authority and to show eligibility to undergo a test for a license or rating or currency.

The FAA does track a CFI's success rate and under some circumstances require a special checkride based on a history of poor performance by a pilot/instructor or their students. Unfortunately this information is not available to you.

Put forth the effort...ask around...pay attention to how the instructor communicates and works with you. There is no silver bullet or litmus paper test.
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The industry/FAA/insurance/jobs all use flight hours and hours relevant to aircraft/mission flown, so that’s a pretty historically sound way to tell.

Also for the CFI route you do have gold seal CFIs who demonstrated a good first time pass ratio and have trained a decent number of students, plus who care enough t get a ground instructor cert and spend some time at the FSDO to get a seal that adds no additional privlage, so this means less than their total hours and how you hit it off, but it’s a nice cherry on top.

If you asked me, I’d say find a CFI/ATP who you get along with, but finding a ATP or someone with ATP mins is good for quite a few reasons, experience and retention being two of them.
 
TerryM thank you for the feedback. I am very passionate about this which sometimes leads to overdoing things...will try to keep it in check. Can I have an amen for the ILS;)

James331 cigarette fumes and second hand smoke make me violently ill as does excessive perfume, b.o. etc. So yeah not going to put up with something so unnecessary and easily avoided.
 
Do that which you believe to be best for you. Just keep in mind:
1-let the buyer beware
2-past performance is NO guarantee of future out comes (Wow Capt XYZ how thrilling is it to take command of the Hindenburg...or Titanic?)
 
jonvcaples said:
TerryM thank you for the feedback. I am very passionate about this which sometimes leads to overdoing things...will try to keep it in check. Can I have an amen for the ILS;)

James331 cigarette fumes and second hand smoke make me violently ill as does excessive perfume, b.o. etc. So yeah not going to put up with something so unnecessary and easily avoided.
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Violently ill? You might want to look into that, wouldn’t be good if you had a electrical fire, flew over a factory farm, had a fuel leak, etc and couldn’t control the plane because you became ill.

That said, obviously it’s best not to have some smelly dude sitting next to you, but that’s soooo far down the list from where experience ranks, it should go without saying.
 
James331 that's your opinion. I am just as entitled to my opinion as you are to yours.

Have a week filled with success
 
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