You are NOT bothering ATC. Students read this.

airdale said:
...Also, I think you cannot file IFR (so maybe not this quasi-IFR flight plan?) if you are not instrument rated...
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One of our members asked the Chief Counsel that question, and I suspect there are a number of pilots who are wishing the question hadn't been asked.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1107737#post1107737

Personally, I think the reasoning in that interpretation is faulty, but unlike Chief Counsel opinions, my opinions are not given deference by the NTSB and the administrative law judges!
 
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Palmpilot said:
One of our members asked the Chief Counsel that question, and I suspect there are a number of pilots who are wishing the question hadn't been asked.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1107737#post1107737

Personally, I think the reasoning in that interpretation is faulty, but unlike the Chief Counsel, the NTSB and the administrative law judges don't give deference to my opinions!
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Read the letter carefully (full on bureaucratic lawyer mode - a true double whammy). First, it doesn't apply to what V173 posted since it refers to VFR in the remarks section. Second...I dunno WITH is second but the first point seemed sorta important. Merry Christmas
 
airdale said:
Velocity173, I have seen this advice ("VFR/55") previously but also seen comments to the effect that such a strip can cause ATC confusion because it is so unusual. Also, I think you cannot file IFR (so maybe not this quasi-IFR flight plan?) if you are not instrument rated. Can you amplify your comments a little? Do you see such strips frequently?
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Yep, what's said above with the CC letter. Do I agree with the letter? Nope. I think it's a misunderstanding on the part of the person who wrote the letter. While the system was designed to have VFRs go to FSS for SAR purposes and IFR to ATC for separation purposes, I see nothing wrong with utilizing the system today to better facilitate FF.

Last time I did ATC was 14 yrs ago and at the time I don't think the technique of filing IFR with a VFR altitude was that popular. My brother is a current controller / pilot and he is all about a pilot filing IFR with a VFR altitude for pilots requesting FF. I believe most controllers would agree. It reduces their workload by having all the pertinent information in the computer. Writing on a strip while a pilot rattles off all their flight plan information, then the controller having his flight data guy type into the system that information, takes unnecessary time.

I will say about the original topic of being a burden. Enroute requests for FF does increase workload for the controller. No way around that. You're providing a service (traffic advisories, safety alerts, vectors) to an aircraft that otherwise wouldn't have it. You also have additional requests such as convective activity or even a request WX for their destination. I've closed out VFR flight plans with FSS because the pilot couldn't get a hold of them in the air. I've called FBOs on the phone before to relay information. I never looked at it as a "burden" though. At times I had to say "aircraft calling for FF, I'll get back to you in a minute." At extremely busy times you can't let that request interfere with your IFR traffic flow. I always got back to them and provided the service or gave a freq to another facility that could provide the service.
 
airdale said:
Velocity173, I have seen this advice ("VFR/55") previously but also seen comments to the effect that such a strip can cause ATC confusion because it is so unusual. Also, I think you cannot file IFR (so maybe not this quasi-IFR flight plan?) if you are not instrument rated. Can you amplify your comments a little? Do you see such strips frequently?
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There's no reason for it to cause any confusion for ATC as it's not at all unusual.
 
Sticky this somewhere....nice write up Erin:)D).....new pilots should read.

Forget the naysayers...

It will help and won't hurt ya at all.

Kudos Bry with a why:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
So I was doing a flight today and was debating 'do I get FF or not?' Because the airport I was headed to was unfamiliar to me and I knew for a fact that there would be skydiving operations so I wasn't sure if I wanted to blast in there talking to center and miss the jump plane. Then i thought of this thread and
Long story short decided to get FF and was ready to cut it off about 20 nm's out to monitor the CTAF but center told me about the jump plane before I even had the chance to figure out where he was.
Very helpful, and glad I did it. Sure I would've been fine monitoring their frequency the whole time, but then mom wouldn't have been able to follow me on Flight aware.
 
I often fly around Long Island and it can get a bit crazy. You do sometimes get denied for FF / Traffic Advisories when the NY Approach controller is clearly overloaded. However I do always ask... it helps me and I know they'd rather know the call sign of that VFR blip on their screen and know that blip is on their frequency. Even if denied I still listen just to hear what's going on.

On my last flight we had traffic coming at us head on 500 ft above us and didn't see them until the controller gave us a heads up. They passed safely overhead after both aircraft confirmed visuals on each other but it was still a great reminder of why I like having that extra set of eyes. For the controller too I know it makes them more comfortable being able to quickly talk to the two dots closing in on each other to confirm visual separation. Otherwise they're just praying the transponder alt is correct as the dots converge...
 
farmerbrake said:
Then i thought of this thread and
Long story short decided to get FF and was ready to cut it off about 20 nm's out to monitor the CTAF but center told me about the jump plane before I even had the chance to figure out where he was.
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:)

Glad to hear this.
I should have posted this a long time ago.

Use Flight Following. It is free. Nothing else in aviation is.
 
One of the things I learned with I went to ZFW was the methods that they use to route traffic in and out of the metroplex. I have flown the arrivals for a long time, but never really understood that around DFW there are four goal posts, or points where traffic comes into prior to switching to approach. For example to the North West the goal post is Bowie. So if you are SE of Bowie expect to have airliners descending to around 10K at that point and lower as they descend on a line from Bowie to DFW. If you are flying VFR you might consider these things when you choose an altitude. Might help avoid an exciting encounter.
 
When I first started flying, I never used Flight Following. In fact, I avoided controlled airspace as much as possible. At some level I was afraid I would screw up, and "they" would catch me in an embarrassing error.

A few years into flying, I mentioned this to a pilot friend over beers. He looked at me like I was nuts, and said "We are paying them to sit there, just like any other government employee. Why would you NOT use them? You're paying them, and they work for YOU."

Somehow, I had never looked at it that way. As pilots, we were trained that controllers were the all-knowing, all-seeing gods of the sky, and that we were merely borrowing "their" airspace when we flew. Once I realized that it was MY airspace, and that I was paying them to run it, it became much easier to use them as the civil servants they truly are.

Since then, we use Flight Following on virtually every non-local flight. Might as well get our money's worth! :)
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
:)

Glad to hear this.
I should have posted this a long time ago.

Use Flight Following. It is free. Nothing else in aviation is.
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Correction: Use Flight Following. You are already paying for it. You would not subscribe to any other aviation service and not use it. :wink2:
 
Great write-up! I'll put in a few kudos for the Johnstown (KJST) and Latrobe (KLBE) ATC crews...always willing to help and very courteous and patient. With the exception of one "Black Cloud" controller, I've never even heard one of them get cranky - and I'm pretty sure I can test the patience of the Pope...
 
Not much to add that has not been said, but bravo...awesome write-up and very encouraging for those who don't use the service often.
 
Great write-up.

I just called a local Class D tower yesterday to see if I could get a tour for myself and my nephew. Won't be as impressive as a tour of Ft. Worth Center, but still interesting for both of us I think. I'm pretty sure I gave my nephew the aviation bug when I took him for his first flight a little while ago. :)
 
comanchepilot said:
Here is my real world practical experience on getting a track on FA

1. If a military tracon opens your FF request
2. IFR
3. VFR crossing a tracon boundary
4. Arriving or departing a Class B airport
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I've noticed that with #'s 2 and 3. The closes Bravo is Atlanta, and I think they'd die laughing if I asked to land there. :lol:
 
There ARE some VFR pilots requesting services who ARE a nuisance. I'm talking about the guy who contacts approach control near a busy Class B and even though the controller is talking non-stop dealing with IFR flights and others already in his system, this is the guy who keeps asking for FF and when he doesn't get a responses asks again and again and again, stepping on other transmissions until the controller has to say "VFR aircraft calling stand by!" I am often tempted in these cases to say "DUDE! STFU!" :lol:

No you are not bothering ATC, but use a little commonsense if you're calling up in a busy area. My other pet peeve is again in a busy area where a VFR pilot calling for services spends far too long talking about what they want, where they are, how high they are, how fast, what equipment, the color of their underwear, etc. Again use a little courtesy if it is busy.
 
sixpacker said:
There ARE some VFR pilots requesting services who ARE a nuisance. I'm talking about the guy who contacts approach control near a busy Class B and even though the controller is talking non-stop dealing with IFR flights and others already in his system, this is the guy who keeps asking for FF and when he doesn't get a responses asks again and again and again, stepping on other transmissions until the controller has to say "VFR aircraft calling stand by!" I am often tempted in these cases to say "DUDE! STFU!" :lol:

No you are not bothering ATC, but use a little commonsense if you're calling up in a busy area. My other pet peeve is again in a busy area where a VFR pilot calling for services spends far too long talking about what they want, where they are, how high they are, how fast, what equipment, the color of their underwear, etc. Again use a little courtesy if it is busy.
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First scenario, shouldn't the tower just say "unable"?

I agree on your 2nd point.
Regardless of how busy, my first call is always: "DFW Approach, bugsmasher 6PC"
That's it.

Then when they acknowledge, I give them the info.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Regardless of how busy, my first call is always: "DFW Approach, bugsmasher 6PC"
That's it.

Then when they acknowledge, I give them the info.
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That's what approach controllers here have recommended as well.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
First scenario, shouldn't the tower just say "unable"?
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Not tower, I'm talking about approach near a busy Class B. Very often the approach controller will be monitoring more than one frequency and making/taking calls on a landline. They might not hear you or are too busy to respond. As you said keep your initial call up short. If you get no response wait a little then when the next gap presents try again. If you still get no response don't take it personally the controller is really busy. Some will tell you to standby. Others will just ignore you. You can usually tell that they are busy by the way they are talking non-stop to multiple other planes. :lol: Remain clear of the airspace and perhaps consider trying again further out with ARTCC. If you're leaving the area ultimately heading away from the Class B this shouldn't be a problem. If you're arriving, well you should have contacted ATC way before getting this close.
 
sixpacker said:
There ARE some VFR pilots requesting services who ARE a nuisance. I'm talking about the guy who contacts approach control near a busy Class B and even though the controller is talking non-stop dealing with IFR flights and others already in his system, this is the guy who keeps asking for FF and when he doesn't get a responses asks again and again and again, stepping on other transmissions until the controller has to say "VFR aircraft calling stand by!" I am often tempted in these cases to say "DUDE! STFU!" :lol:

No you are not bothering ATC, but use a little commonsense if you're calling up in a busy area. My other pet peeve is again in a busy area where a VFR pilot calling for services spends far too long talking about what they want, where they are, how high they are, how fast, what equipment, the color of their underwear, etc. Again use a little courtesy if it is busy.
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Regarding the long transmission people they're annoying everyone.

Regarding busy airspace it's still important to ask, but yes just keep it short and sweet during a gap in transmissions and if the controler just simply can't they only need to say no. It's their job to provide the service if able and there's no foul in asking. Often if it's busy they might send you to a different frequency to someone that is less busy or tell you to check back in 5 min after a spike in IFR traffic passes out of their airspace.

I find that when it's busy the controller is sometimes almost waiting for my call and confirms radar contact before even handing out the transponder code. It's as if he's saying "Yeah so your the 1200 blip that came into my airspace, I've been watching you." Unless they're truly overloaded they'd certainly like to be able to talk to me vs. just being a blip in their screen passing through.
 
sixpacker said:
If you're arriving, well you should have contacted ATC way before getting this close.
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Not in every case. I have flown to Chicago a number of times under flight following. Chicago center will drop you when you get close to the city and tell you to call Chicago approach. So then you are changing frequencies, trying to find an opening and get your call in, all while fast approaching a complex air space. The last time I flew to Chicago, I could not immediately get Chicago approach's attention. But after I heard them call me out to an incoming airliner (I was just north of Gary, heading to the north side of Chicago planning to take the lake shore route, and the airliner was landing from the east over lake Michigan) and indicated that they didn't know where I was going, I broke in (again) and told them I was the traffic they just called out and that I wanted flight following to Chicago Exec. They heard me that time. And the controller seemed genuinely pleased I had checked in.
 
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PPC1052 said:
Not in every case. I have flown to Chicago a number of times under flight following. Chicago center will drop you when you get close to the city and tell you to call Chicago approach. So then you are changing frequencies, trying to find an opening and get your call in, all while fast approaching a complex air space. The last time I flew to Chicago, I could not immediately get Chicago approach's attention. But after I heard them call me out to an incoming airliner (I was just north of Gary, heading to the north side of Chicago planning to take the lake shore route, and the airliner was landing from the east over lake Michigan) and indicated that they didn't know where I was going, I broke in (again) and told them I was the traffic they just called out and that I wanted flight following to Chicago Exec. They heard me that time.
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I find that hard to believe. There isn't much of the city that is not within the lateral limits of the Class B airspace and all of that Class B airspace is well inside of the lateral limits of Chicago approach. Even if it was as you describe, nothing would prevent you from "dropping" Chicago Center and going over to approach when you feel it's warranted.
 
roncachamp said:
I find that hard to believe.
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Irrelevant what you find hard to believe. Every time I have flown to Chicago, Chicago Center has dropped me near the city. And I am not alone. http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1450955&postcount=58

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1449826&postcount=4

And apparently there is a technical reason why they do:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1449899&postcount=7

roncachamp said:
Even if it was as you describe, nothing would prevent you from "dropping" Chicago Center and going over to approach when you feel it's warranted.
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True, except for the eternal hope that one day they will just hand me off.
 
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roncachamp said:
It's far more likely that you're unfamiliar with the city or difference between center and approach.
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Bull****. I know the difference between center and approach. Why are you being insulting?
 
roncachamp said:
No mention of the city there
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Read the context. Or read this quote: "I've flown from Wisconsin to the East, West, and Gulf coasts multiple times and there are no other facilities where I have to call up cold again like I have to in Chicago." I could have sworn that "Chicago" is a city.

Or how about this: "There are busier facilities than C90, there are more complex facilities than C90. Why is C90 the only one that still won't take a VFR handoff, ever?" Do you know what C90 is?


Or read this. http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1449899&postcount=7
Mark Z is a ATC in Chicago. I think he knows what he's talking about.
 
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PPC1052 said:
Not in every case. I have flown to Chicago a number of times under flight following. Chicago center will drop you when you get close to the city and tell you to call Chicago approach. So then you are changing frequencies, trying to find an opening and get your call in, all while fast approaching a complex air space.
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The only time I've flown into the Chicago area was under IFR plan so I wouldn't know about that. But if for some reason you get dropped from FF, it isn't the end of the world. Yes, the airspace is complex but you have your sectional and just make sure you stay out of the Bravo airspace and it is business as usual, VFR look outside the window and make sure you don't hit anything. I wouldn't panic and start spending too much time calling up different frequencies and trying to reestablish. Fly the plane.
 
PPC1052 said:
Bull****. I know the difference between center and approach. Why are you being insulting?
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You believe that you know the difference, but it doesn't sound like you actually do. There's no way Chicago Center would be working you that deep into Chicago approach airspace. And you say it's happened multiple times, you're the one that's spewing bullchit here.
 
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PPC1052 said:
Read the context. Or read this quote: "I've flown from Wisconsin to the East, West, and Gulf coasts multiple times and there are no other facilities where I have to call up cold again like I have to in Chicago." I could have sworn that "Chicago" is a city.
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But not just a city, it refers to the TRACON here.

Or how about this: "There are busier facilities than C90, there are more complex facilities than C90. Why is C90 the only one that still won't take a VFR handoff, ever?" Do you know what C90 is?
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Yes.

Or read this. http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1449899&postcount=7
Mark Z is a ATC in Chicago. I think he knows what he's talking about.
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I'm sure he does. He offers nothing here that supports your position.
 
roncachamp said:
But not just a city, it refers to the TRACON here.



Yes.



I'm sure he does. He offers nothing here that supports your position.
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I don't think you understand what I said. Chicago center drops you and doesn't hand you off to Chicago approach. How is that not true? How is that different than what others have said, including Mark Z when he said: "Chicago ARTCC/Milwaukee Approach/Rockford Approach may cancel your flight following, the most likely reason is because the computers don't normally pass VFR flight following plans."
 
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Chicago style pizza is my favorite

deep_crust_pizza.jpg
 
PPC1052 said:
I don't think you understand what I said. Chicago approach drops you and doesn't hand you off to Chicago Center. How is that not true? How is that different than what others have said, including Mark Z when he said: "Chicago ARTCC/Milwaukee Approach/Rockford Approach may cancel your flight following, the most likely reason is because the computers don't normally pass VFR flight following plans."
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That's not what you said, this is what you said; "Chicago center will drop you when you get close to the city and tell you to call Chicago approach." When these facilities that border Chicago approach terminate flight following it's generally done when the aircraft is still within their own airspace, not at some point close to the city.
 
roncachamp said:
You believe that you know the difference, but it doesn't sound like you actually do. There's no way Chicago Center would be working you that deep into Chicago approach airspace. And you say it's happened multiple times, you're the one that's spewing bullchit here.
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Who said anything about how "deep into Chicago Approach airspace" they worked me. I just said that as you get close to the city, Chicago center drops you. I never once said that Center works me into Approach airspace. Frankly, I neither know nor care where the boundary is. All I know when they drop you its close to the city.

You can insult me with no reason all you want. I can't stop you. But Chicago Center works you from outside of Grissom approach (and if you think Chicago Approach works that airspace, then I can't help you.) all the way up to close to the city of Chicago, and then they drop you. The last time, they told my I could try Chicago Approach and gave me a frequency. It doesn't take any real expertise to recognize the difference between Center and Approach. So, please refrain from calling me a liar and/or idiot when there is no basis to do so.
 
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roncachamp said:
That's not what you said, this is what you said; "Chicago center will drop you when you get close to the city and tell you to call Chicago approach." When these facilities that border Chicago approach terminate flight following it's generally done when the aircraft is still within their own airspace, not at some point close to the city.
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Oh, I see where you are coming from. After misrepresenting what I said earlier, now you want to stand on your accusation that I am either lying or an idiot because you disagree with what is "close to the city" of Chicago. Ok. :rolleyes2:
 
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