XC Solo Endorsement Limitations of CFI

[Billy B]

I have a really important question involving several pilots and the FSDO:

In 61.93, it says an instructor cannot endorse a solo XC unless, he/she has, “(2) Reviewed the current and forecast weather conditions and has determined that the flight can
be completed under VFR;”

So, how far in advance can an instructor endorse a student to fly? Surely, the regulation implies it is before the student turns the key, pre-flights, and walks out to the ramp, but could this also include the time spent discussing flight details, grabbing a cup of coffee, or even driving to the airport in separate vehicles? What’s to stop an instructor from endorsing a student one week in advance based on those observations? All observations are in the past, after all.

Now let’s really say an instructor is located in another time zone and it’s 3-4 hours before the flight. He/she reviews current and forecasted weather for the flight (at that time). It looks like it will be decidedly VFR for that flight and several hours after the flight. The student shows up for the flight, but is stopped at the door by chief pilot due to decaying weather conditions. After it is determined the CFI is unreachable, the student is sent home. Has the CFI broken the law by not reviewing current weather conditions? They were current when the student was endorsed, but not current when the chief reviewed them.

 

[rk911]

when i was ready for my solo XC my instructor met me at the field, watched as I did the preflight, reviewed my written plan and then watched as I checked the current and forecast weather. then and only then did I receive a logbook endorsement for the flight. coming up on 10-years pretty soon and I still remember that day.

 

[Billy B]

That sounds like a pleasantly personable and tight-knit school. I only wish we had some of that here with the fleet of 25 planes and army of instructors here.

 

[rk911]

That sounds like a pleasantly personable and tight-knit school. I only wish we had some of that here with the fleet of 25 planes and army of instructors here.

it was...not sure about these days. my CFI is now left seat for SkyWest. good teacher.

 

[TommyG]

Well that sounds like a specific flight school problem. I have endorsed my student the day before if I am unable to physically be present in the day of the flight. We will though talk over the phone prior to the flight. But I work independently or with smaller 61 schools. But some of these bigger schools have all sorts of different rules and policies.

 

[N1120A]

My instructor wasn't at the flight school when I did my XC solo, but another instructor there was briefed on my limitations and endorsed me instead. Doesn't it work like that anywhere?

 

[Tools]

I would think the definition of “current weather” would be definitive. So whatever the periodicity of the weather reports used, which are generally hourly’ish.

Part 141 schools really write their own rules, which are then scrutinized by the FAA jurisdictional FSDO POI. I am setting up a 141 school now and am requiring a student’s instructor to be at the airport during solo operations. I could probably delegate the weather review requirement to a properly trained dispatcher, but too small for that now.

 

[Clip4]

If you are at a 141 school, there are 2 regs in play.

The student must have a CFI’s endorsement that states the student's preflight planning and preparation is correct and that the student is prepared to make the flight safely under the known conditions;

And

No student pilot may be authorized to start a solo practice flight from an airport until the flight has been approved by a certificated flight instructor. That instructor must be physically present at the departure airport.

 

[Clip4]

I would think the definition of “current weather” would be definitive. So whatever the periodicity of the weather reports used, which are generally hourly’ish.

Part 141 schools really write their own rules, which are then scrutinized by the FAA jurisdictional FSDO POI. I am setting up a 141 school now and am requiring a student’s instructor to be at the airport during solo operations. I could probably delegate the weather review requirement to a properly trained dispatcher, but too small for that now.

Unless your FSDO requires something else, any school CFI can release the solo flight. They don’t have to stay at the school until the student lands. And any school CFI can review the students XC planning.

The policy you might to include is all solo flights are to meet a syllabus requirement and not just a joy ride today.

 

[brcase]

how far in advance can an instructor endorse a student to fly?

As with many FAA rules. They let you decide, They will decide if you were wrong if something happens or maybe if it is obvious (to them anyway) that you didn't comply with the rule (signed them off 30 days before the flight?).
As I tell my students many FAA rules are written so that they are not an issue until there is an issue. like do you need a current sectional, only if you do something wrong that a current sectional might have prevented FAR 91.103
I have also have heard this called the "We will know it when we see it" definition.

Essentially as the CFI you get to make the call on what is reasonable. Marginal forecast conditions for the flight I might not sign them off until they are about ready to leave. If we have High Pressure Clear air forecast for the next 10 days I might sign them off a week in advance, but will probably be checking the weather the same day of the flight, even if I don't talk with them. I just need to be able to make a reasonable argument that if they have a weather related incident that I didn't send them into it unprepared or into something they should have known about but didn't.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[Dana]

I have a friend who learned to fly in his own plane (C-170) and his instructor was based at an airport 43 miles away from his home field where he kept the plane, there weren't any tailwheel CFIs at his home field I believe he had some kind of blanket signoff to go back and forth once he had soloed. By the time he did his checkride he had around 500 hours, not because he was a slow learner but because he just liked to fly a lot and did so until he finally got around to scheduling the checkride.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yesterday weather is not current weather for today.

I think the most common course of action is to do that final OK and endorsement on the day of the flight. If the "regular" CFI is away, the solution I've seen is to have another CFI do it. The 61.93(c)(3) endorsement is one of the few which authorizes the CFI other than the one "conducting the training" to do the endorsement. There is that little requirement that the endorsing CFI has "Determined that the student is proficient to conduct the flight safely," but that "determination" is often handled by coordination with the training CFI.

The other solution in the 21st century, is for the "regular" CFI to review the planning remotely and issue the endorsement digitally.

 

[PaulS]

Not a cfi, but I think a phone call is fine. And honestly, if a student can't figure this out on his own before the flight, the instructor has failed and/or the student is a moron. A student on a cross country should not be worrying as to whether the weather will be below mins during the flight. Any question like this should be a no go.

 

[rk911]

Not a cfi, but I think a phone call is fine. And honestly, if a student can't figure this out on his own before the flight, the instructor has failed and/or the student is a moron. A student on a cross country should not be worrying as to whether the weather will be below mins during the flight. Any question like this should be a no go.

some students make, ummmm, questionable decisions. as it was related to me...a student on his first solo at my home field rather than do the typical 3-loops in the pattern left the airspace and headed to a grass strip a few miles distant. he ended up totaling the plane when he bounced it on one of his landings. he walked away.

 

[flyingron]

The regs have no doubt changed since I was a student pilot but my instructor signed me off the night before and figured I had enough sense to scrub if the weather turned (this was Colorado after all). The flight school was all set to arrange another instructor who was scheduled to be in to review my stuff but I said I'd wake up my primary instructor. Somehow the girl at the desk had missed out of the fact that the instructor was my roommate.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Not a cfi, but I think a phone call is fine. And honestly, if a student can't figure this out on his own before the flight,

I tend to agree, but...

True, I'm not going to issue the primary solo cross country endorsement (a prerequisite to the endorsement we are discussing) unless I'm comfortable with my student's ability. But student pilots have limited experience, can make bad decision, and are just as subject to missionitis as anyone. Maybe more so. I remember I was weathered out repeatedly one of my solo cross countries and might just have gone ahead into marginal conditions or a bad forecast at some point to final get it DONE if there wasn't an instructor to say "no." (And my CFI let me get away with stuff I'd murder my student for )

Besides, it's not about the student figuring it out. It's about compliance with the student solo cross country regulations which requires a second set of eyes. And a record that it was done, just in case.

 

[TommyG]

some students make, ummmm, questionable decisions. as it was related to me...a student on his first solo at my home field rather than do the typical 3-loops in the pattern left the airspace and headed to a grass strip a few miles distant. he ended up totaling the plane when he bounced it on one of his landings. he walked away.

That can happen with any CFI for any endorsement. Unless you are there at the field for every solo flight, they have the controls.

 

[PaulS]

some students make, ummmm, questionable decisions. as it was related to me...a student on his first solo at my home field rather than do the typical 3-loops in the pattern left the airspace and headed to a grass strip a few miles distant. he ended up totaling the plane when he bounced it on one of his landings. he walked away.

That student was a moron. Takes all kinds, were there any repercussions for you?

I tend to agree, but...

True, I'm not going to issue the primary solo cross country endorsement (a prerequisite to the endorsement we are discussing) unless I'm comfortable with my student's ability. But student pilots have limited experience, can make bad decision, and are just as subject to missionitis as anyone. Maybe more so. I remember I was weathered out repeatedly one of my solo cross countries and might just have gone ahead into marginal conditions or a bad forecast at some point to final get it DONE if there wasn't an instructor to say "no." (And my CFI let me get away with stuff I'd murder my student for )

Besides, it's not about the student figuring it out. It's about compliance with the student solo cross country regulations which requires a second set of eyes. And a record that it was done, just in case.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the sign off procedure, it shouldn't be skirted. But if it's any more than a cursory chat, then more instruction is probably warranted.

I honestly don't recall what we did for my cross countries a long time ago, I think we talked on the phone and he gave me the ok before each trip. I was weathered out once or twice, but waited for severe clear before I asked to go. I did get lost on my first one, lol. I called up ATC and they helped me out.

 

[rk911]

That student was a moron. Takes all kinds, were there any repercussions for you?

indirectly. i had my sport cert. at the time and had gone to the airport to rent the same plane for a flight. when i arrived i learned what had happened. that decision reduced the rental fleet by 33%.