steingar
Taxi to Parking
Could get you resources you might not get otherwise, like paramedics standing by from the hospitals within five minutes of the Ohio State University Airport.
Would you declare an emergency?
- Thread starter SkyHog
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Considering the mortality rate for even first heart attacks, I cannot understand your hesitancy to declare. The situation described fits exactly the criteria for issuing a MAYDAY call, "The imminent threat to loss of life or property". There is absolutely no detractor to issuing a mayday call and treating it as an imminent emergency. If ATC does request you fill out some paperwork, the statement "I believed that my passenger was suffering from a heart attack" would be all that would be necessary as an explanation, it would not be questioned any further. There are two factors that have shown to have the greatest results in the survival, and level of recovery, of heart attacks, and that is the ingestion of aspirin early in the event, and quick medical attention, and minutes count, even seconds.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
The real question is why you wouldn't declare.
Flyfishingpilot
Pre-takeoff checklist
If you lost precious minutes because you declared a priority handling then realized that you had to request an emergency to get in front of the line, you leave yourself wide open for a lawsuit. Win or lose, you still waste time and money defending yourself. That would be a major inconvenience. I would minimize my exposure and declare an emergency asap. There is no downside.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I turn the plane direct to the airport.
I tell ATC I've got a pasenger having a heart attack.
I tell them to have an ambulance ready.
I already said if I am not first in line I will declare.
Declaring an emergency does what? I've already told them what I need. Does squawking 7700 provide an extra 30kts I'm not aware of?
I tell ATC I've got a pasenger having a heart attack.
I tell them to have an ambulance ready.
I already said if I am not first in line I will declare.
Declaring an emergency does what? I've already told them what I need. Does squawking 7700 provide an extra 30kts I'm not aware of?
No, but it may get you on the ground faster, and it gets the support rolling. It really doesn't matter a bunch, because if you call in with someone having a heat attack, ATC WILL declare the emergency. You OTOH may be questioned as to why you did not and that may leave you open to civil litigation from the family of your passenger. You can never be legally faulted for doing something due to the Good Samaritan Act, you can however be faulted for not doing enough, in some situations even to the point of criminal prosecution.
Flyfishingpilot
Pre-takeoff checklist
What is the downside of declaring an emmergency? or squawking 7700?
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I wouldn't change my squawk unless I couldn't get through by voice or was asked to by ATC. It causes distractions on the scope. If I've declared by voice and received confirmation, that covers it.
Saves you the cost of defending yourself in a lawsuit.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
When has that ever stopped someone from suing?
If they have nothing to blame on you, the lawyer won't take it on contingency. Most people won't sue on something like this paying a retainer, and a lawyer won't run on a contingency without having a case he thinks will pay. If you did everything in your ability, there is nothing. If you forget a procedure that "The Prudent Person" would take, now you've opened up a door and a lawyer will figure he has a chance with a jury, now you need an attorney as well. Remember, in a civil case there are "percentages of liability" that apply, they don't have to show all or nothing, all they have to show is a small percentage of liability in order to collect something. History shows that juries don't favor pilots.
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fgcason
En-Route
Nope. No deal. I have too much of an imagination for any of this kind of stuff.
"Hi. I'm feeling better now after my nap. Where are we?"
Straight to a NTSB report with that one.
Teller1900
En-Route
Indeed. I've declared twice in my few years of flying regularly. Both times I was in radar contact and, in addition to asking the normal "say fuel and souls on board" they also advised that I should "remain this beacon code and proceed direct the airport when able." If you're in radar contact, they'll make sure you're properly identified and that anyone they hand you off to knows, too. It's a lot easier for them to just mark you as an emergency and go on with what they need to do than have to deal with the alarms and potential confusion of having someone changing their squawk without specific instruction.
As to the OP: I'd declare without hesitation. You lose nothing by declaring an emergency and, while you don't gain an extra 30kts, you do gain the assurance that a) the airspace and airport are yours, b) the equipment will be waiting, and c) everyone understands the severity of the situation.
It's not just bad gas, it's severe chest pain. You want to be number 1 for the field, not just "have priority." While the controllers will probably treat you as an emergency a/c, if someone else declares while you're still inbound, guess who gets priority. If they don't think it's that big of a deal, they may wait to call the CFR, especially if it's off field. If you declare, there's a better than average chance that they'll be there to guide you off the runway.
TangoWhiskey
Touchdown! Greaser!
Would you get in trouble for landing at a nearby NAS or AFB without PPR in a situation like this? Even if you would get in trouble, would you land there and answer questions later with a life at stake and it was the closest available facility?
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TangoWhiskey
Touchdown! Greaser!
"Ah, 'is just a flesh wound!"
Everskyward
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I didn't need to have a good imagination since it really happened, to me. FWIW I counted the donor as a SOB but most of that was because I had filed beforehand and had not anticipated this situation.
Stevel
Line Up and Wait
Yup! Beat up on a dead guy until I was exhausted
I kept pumping his chest well beyond what I thought possible because it takes an ambulance a looooong time to cover 17 miles of dirt roads, and "Why waste the cost of a helo on a dead guy?"
________
BUY SILVER SURFER
I kept pumping his chest well beyond what I thought possible because it takes an ambulance a looooong time to cover 17 miles of dirt roads, and "Why waste the cost of a helo on a dead guy?"
________
BUY SILVER SURFER
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ScottM
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iBazinga!
Last I checked a pilot does not get to decide when someone is dead, therefore treat it as an emergency. Perhaps if EMT gets there and can shock him he might come back. There could be just enough of a heartbeat to keep things moving and the brain is not completely jello.
ScottM
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iBazinga!
You have never seen Futurama have you?
poadeleted20
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Is his name Bernie?
poadeleted20
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None of which I am aware unless you really didn't have an emergency. The FAA and NTSB have repeatedly said that they will not second-guess the declaration of an emergency unless it is obvious that there was intent to deceive. See Administrator v. Eden for an example of demonstrable deceit.
I wouldn't hesitate to turn for a military airbase, actually, I'd prefer one, or a Class B because there will be high level medical care on scene. They can hold me at gun point, doesn't bother me BTDT with a lot less stable of people, so long as my pax get the care they need.
flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
Well, as you've described above, if you're just too manly to declare an emergency, ATC will have already declared an emergency for you.
I really don't understand the aversion to declaring an emergency.
gprellwitz
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I believe in the I2D2 principle. "If In Doubt, Declare!"Well, as you've described above, if you're just too manly to declare an emergency, ATC will have already declared an emergency for you.
I really don't understand the aversion to declaring an emergency.
sba55
En-Route
Neither do I. Like I said before, if you have to ask if you should declare, then you need to declare.Well, as you've described above, if you're just too manly to declare an emergency, ATC will have already declared an emergency for you.
I really don't understand the aversion to declaring an emergency.
ATC would much rather be clear about what's going on and have you declare than make a guess themselves. Not declaring is confusing at best. A lot of our ATC interactions are based on expectations. It's sort of like checking in with a new sector IFR. Sure you can just call up with your call sign and then have them call back and ask for your altitude. Or you can do what's expected and give them your altitude as part of your initial call.
Look at it this way - do you think it's fair to place a burden on ATC to guess what handling your situation requires? I used the E-word right away when I had an HSI failure in IMC. I couldn't really explain to ATC what the issue was because they most likely wouldn't have been familiar with the particular piece of equipment that was causing trouble. Calling with an emergency, however, got me their attention and everybody on the frequency kept quiet.
-Felix
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
Why the heck not declare? Doing so not only give you priority over nearly everything else, it also allows both you and ATC to deviate from the rules if that helps. I do know that more people have died as a result of not declaring than have from declaring. I really see no downside to going the emergency route in this case, even if you're not certain the pax had a MI.
Always assume worst case until proven otherwise.
flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
Heck yeah I'd land there. I'm sure you wouldn't get in (much) trouble, and even if you did - Well, it's a heckuva lot easier to get out of trouble than to get out of dead.
sba55
En-Route
And in my limited experience, the military doesn't mind helping civilian pilots at all. While I was at Travis AFB (where they keep lots of U-2s), I asked if I could visit the tower. No problem. I doubt they'd mind if you landed there in an emergency. And I've got an accent. Imagine how easy it would be for you
4CornerFlyer
Line Up and Wait
Fortunately, speaking clear English solves the dilemma. Advising ATC that your passenger is having a heart attack and you need to return for landing immediately conveys all the necessary information.
Now, if you weren't already in radio and radar contact, I would make the initial call as a Mayday.
Someone might appear dead and just be unconscious for many treatable reasons (low blood sugar, seizure, hypoxia etc). I doubt you could actually feel for a pulse or listen for heart sounds when flying alone (other than the victim) in a small airplane, so "death" would be difficult to determine.
Land at the closest place. ATC can contact EMS, and whether it's on the field on not, they'll probably be there before you shut down anyway.
Jon
Now, if you weren't already in radio and radar contact, I would make the initial call as a Mayday.
Someone might appear dead and just be unconscious for many treatable reasons (low blood sugar, seizure, hypoxia etc). I doubt you could actually feel for a pulse or listen for heart sounds when flying alone (other than the victim) in a small airplane, so "death" would be difficult to determine.
Land at the closest place. ATC can contact EMS, and whether it's on the field on not, they'll probably be there before you shut down anyway.
Jon
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A bit dramatic with the "mayday,mayday,mayday" call there. Just call approach and declare an emergency, then tell them of the nature of it.
wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
I'd declare. Gives you a LOT of latitude in terms of the rules - and will have equipment waiting for you when you get on the ground.
OSU? I'd go there in a heartbeat IF I were closer. By the time I got on the ground, the ambulance should be arriving (even if ARFF is closed - OSU is in the metro area).
OSU? I'd go there in a heartbeat IF I were closer. By the time I got on the ground, the ambulance should be arriving (even if ARFF is closed - OSU is in the metro area).
Flyfishingpilot
Pre-takeoff checklist
They may not give you clearance. It wouldn't be the first time a military base would explicitly refuse to allow an aircraft to land despite an emergency. I remember reading an article where some airplanes were critical on fuel. They asked to land at a military installation and were promptly denied..
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Flyfishingpilot
Pre-takeoff checklist
I don't think so... other pilots will pay more attention when they hear a mayday over the radio... again, no downside...
Flyfishingpilot
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RotorAndWing
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Mayday is OK if you're broadcasting in the blind, but the use of that word while in contact with ATC is not really necessary, just inform the controller you are declaring an emergency and the nature of the problem.
From the AIM:
6-3-1. Distress and Urgency Communications
a. A pilot who encounters a distress or urgency condition can obtain assistance simply by contacting the air traffic facility or other agency in whose area of responsibility the aircraft is operating, stating the nature of the difficulty, pilot's intentions and assistance desired. Distress and urgency communications procedures are prescribed by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), however, and have decided advantages over the informal procedure described above. b. Distress and urgency communications procedures discussed in the following paragraphs relate to the use of air ground voice communications.
c. The initial communication, and if considered necessary, any subsequent transmissions by an aircraft in distress should begin with the signal MAYDAY, preferably repeated three times. The signal PAN-PAN should be used in the same manner for an urgency condition.
While in contact with ATC, as the described situation that started this thread "Mayday" is not necessarily needed in the call up.
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TMetzinger
Final Approach
I recommend the use of MAYDAY in the initial call up, even when you're talking to ATC. It gets the attention of everyone else on the frequency, and will get others to shut the heck up while you work your situation with ATC. If your controller is on the landline, he'll likely notice the mayday, or at least everyone else will and you'll have an uncongested frequency until the initial handling is done.
bluesky74656
Line Up and Wait
Let me pose this situation: You're taking a passenger sightseeing over his house in a rural area when he has his heart attack. You're not talking to ATC. Podunk County airport is 5 minutes away, but you know it has no ARFF and you don't know how close the nearest hospital is. A Class D airport with ARFF is about 15 minutes away at full throttle. Do you call up the local approach control with a mayday call and have them call EMS to Podunk, or do you turn and burn for the Class D?
I'd call the tower and get the ambulance en route to Podunk. Get on the ground as soon as possible so someone (like you) can start CPR as soon as possible - possibly before the ambulance arrives.
It is hard to do CPR in a Cherokee and fly the plane, too.
-Skip
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Mayday is a necessity if declaring an emergency in intl airspace. The word "emergency" is not recognized in most places outside of the united states. I agree, just declare the emergency with ATC, no need to use mayday.