Would or How to log this?

Fearless Tower said:
Are you THAT much in need of .2 - .3 hours in the logbook?

I think you are noticing that regardless of what the FAA considers loggable, most self-respecting pilots don't log time for the scenarios you've suggested.
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Can we keep personal attacks out of the thread? This isn't about me, it's a mental mastication exercise.

(And yes, this response was aided by the heavy application of autocorrect, and I liked it - so left it that way)
 
Jaybird180 said:
Can we keep personal attacks out of the thread? This isn't about me, it's a mental mastication exercise.



(And yes, this response was aided by the heavy application of autocorrect, and I liked it - so left it that way)
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You consider that a personal attack?
 
How about if you taxi out for the intention of flight but abort the takeoff on the runway? :D

When I first was learning to fly I was taught to log hobbs time (this was a long time ago) which I think recorded time with oil pressure. Now we keep track of out-off-on-in times so flight time for the airplane is off to on, while logged time for the pilot is out to in. In our current airplane the hobbs is tied to the squat switch so it would record off to on.

That said, does a tenth or two really matter if it is an estimate? No one holds a stopwatch on you.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'd log that as ground training, not flight time.
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That may be how he entered it in my logbook. I haven't looked at that book in awhile. The .3 wasn't really what mattered to me, it was the lesson (which the log entry reminded me of over the years) of the importance of a thorough preflight inspection. As well as the importance of accepting a NO-GO decision when appropriate.
 
ahkahn said:
So you all are telling me that if you land at ORD or DFW where taxiing could take 15-20 minutes you would not log that?? You're sole manipulator of the controls, under ATC direction, and certainly are in command of an aircraft.
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Teterboro was a mess for a student, with all of the jets! (glad I trained there though). My friend was a controller at the time, he'd get me out ahead of them sometimes:D
 
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How would I do it?

In all three scenarios, keep it in the back of my mind and next flight add 0.1 on to the next flight.
 
ahkahn said:
Boy, I must come from a different "old" school. I was taught in 1993 to log engine on to engine off.
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If that is really what you were taught, then it would appear you were taught wrong.

Here is the FAA's definition of what is loggable flight time:

FAA Regulations (14 CFR 1.1) defines flight time as “block time” as follows:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing

So, if you start the engine and sit in the tie down for 20+ minutes while tuning radios, entering flight plan into the GPS, waiting for the oil temp to warm up, that is NOT loggable flight time.
 
Fearless Tower said:
If that is really what you were taught, then it would appear you were taught wrong.

Here is the FAA's definition of what is loggable flight time:

FAA Regulations (14 CFR 1.1) defines flight time as “block time” as follows:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing

So, if you start the engine and sit in the tie down for 20+ minutes while tuning radios, entering flight plan into the GPS, waiting for the oil temp to warm up, that is NOT loggable flight time.
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I would beg to differ. You got to the end of the tarmac by moving the aircraft under it's own power for the purpose of flight. "Comes to rest after landing" is not defined as roll out, taxi off, or anything of the sort. It could easily be defined as the conclusion of the "SLIM" checklist, as ultimately that is the plane "coming to rest" after a landing.
 
ahkahn said:
I would beg to differ. You got to the end of the tarmac by moving the aircraft under it's own power for the purpose of flight. "Comes to rest after landing" is not defined as roll out, taxi off, or anything of the sort. It could easily be defined as the conclusion of the "SLIM" checklist, as ultimately that is the plane "coming to rest" after a landing.
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How can you argue with that? You said engine on to engine off. The FAA clearly does not agree.
 
I use ForeFlight's Track Log feature. I hit the record button just as I leave the tiedown and hit it again when I reach my destination spot after landing, which is usually the first time I come to a complete stop after landing. The time in between, I log, assuming I flew. If I didn't, I don't log anything.

And there are lots of flights where I don't log anything, especially fuel runs.
 
Sounds like many of you have P51 time in your logbooks.
 
ahkahn said:
I would beg to differ. You got to the end of the tarmac by moving the aircraft under it's own power for the purpose of flight. "Comes to rest after landing" is not defined as roll out, taxi off, or anything of the sort. It could easily be defined as the conclusion of the "SLIM" checklist, as ultimately that is the plane "coming to rest" after a landing.
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so let me get this straight. Last Nov I moved out of the country and left my airplanes pickled in the usa. I can definitely say I didn't do any sort of checklist after I landed the pawnee in front of the barn the last time. When my brother gets his planter out in a few months he'll have to move the pawnee, and he will surely run through a checklist of looking for bird & mouse nests, airing up tires, etc since he's a.r. that way. When he stops moving it, will that finally complete it's flight ? If so I'm in trouble, 500 some-odd days of continuous flight with no inspections or recurring AD's done.

See photo for picture of the airplane in flight. It's as viable an argument as trying to redefine "landing".
 

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Fearless Tower said:
How can you argue with that? You said engine on to engine off. The FAA clearly does not agree.
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You're clearly missing my point. The FAA does not explicitly express otherwise because they do not say "Take off to Landing".

Let's look at the definition more closely from FAR 1.1:

Part 1: "Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight" - This would specifically exclude taxiing across the airport for a maintenance call, for example. Taxiing to the run-up area from the point of engine start is certainly "for the purpose of flight" and would be acceptable to log.

Part 2: "ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing" - Again, as I said before, the engine shutdown procedure could certainly qualify as "rest after landing". If you disagree, would you count the roll out? The pull off? The cleanup of the plane? Certainly all of those could be considered "rest after landing", but my interpretation of "rest after landing" is engine shut down.
 
ahkahn said:
You're clearly missing my point. The FAA does not explicitly express otherwise because they do not say "Take off to Landing".

Let's look at the definition more closely from FAR 1.1:

Part 1: "Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight" - This would specifically exclude taxiing across the airport for a maintenance call, for example. Taxiing to the run-up area from the point of engine start is certainly "for the purpose of flight" and would be acceptable to log.

Part 2: "ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing" - Again, as I said before, the engine shutdown procedure could certainly qualify as "rest after landing". If you disagree, would you count the roll out? The pull off? The cleanup of the plane? Certainly all of those could be considered "rest after landing", but my interpretation of "rest after landing" is engine shut down.
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when did you land ?
 
ahkahn said:
You're clearly missing my point. The FAA does not explicitly express otherwise because they do not say "Take off to Landing".

Let's look at the definition more closely from FAR 1.1:

Part 1: "Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight" - This would specifically exclude taxiing across the airport for a maintenance call, for example. Taxiing to the run-up area from the point of engine start is certainly "for the purpose of flight" and would be acceptable to log.

Part 2: "ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing" - Again, as I said before, the engine shutdown procedure could certainly qualify as "rest after landing". If you disagree, would you count the roll out? The pull off? The cleanup of the plane? Certainly all of those could be considered "rest after landing", but my interpretation of "rest after landing" is engine shut down.
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So you no longer consider loggable time to be startup to shut down? That is specifically what you said it was, which I pointed out was incorrect.

Sounds like you have changed your interpretation to stay in the game.
 
No, in this scenario I would start my clock at engine on because I intend to take a flight. I would stop the clock upon cancellation of the flight. The intent and purpose was still there, but the flight was scrubbed due to reasons beyond my control. I'm still logging the time.

Here's the rhetorical question: If you're not logging the time on the ground, and you're taxiing the plane, you are not legally declaring yourself as pilot-in-command until wheels up. Who is PIC of the plane on the ground?

So long as my intention is to fly, and the engine starts, I'm logging it.
 
If the plane is in motion.... I am logging it....

Just run into something while taxiing and tell the FAA you where not PIC..:rolleyes2:
 
ahkahn said:
No, in this scenario I would start my clock at engine on because I intend to take a flight. I would stop the clock upon cancellation of the flight. The intent and purpose was still there, but the flight was scrubbed due to reasons beyond my control. I'm still logging the time.



Here's the rhetorical question: If you're not logging the time on the ground, and you're taxiing the plane, you are not legally declaring yourself as pilot-in-command until wheels up. Who is PIC of the plane on the ground?



So long as my intention is to fly, and the engine starts, I'm logging it.
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Your way only works if you start moving/taxiing as soon as you start the engine.

As to your other point, you seem to be confused with some idea that you are required to log PIC time. Are you aware that there is no requirement to log all flight time?

I could go fly my airplane for an hour right now and there would be no requirement for me to log it.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Your way only works if you start moving/taxiing as soon as you start the engine.

As to your other point, you seem to be confused with some idea that you are required to log PIC time. Are you aware that there is no requirement to log all flight time?

I could go fly my airplane for an hour right now and there would be no requirement for me to log it.
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amen

We don't write numbers in a little book when we drive the car to the IGA. Going somewhere in the airplane is no different.
 
What I'm trying to explain is my justification for logging taxi time based on the regs. If you're saying that you choose not to log any time, or only log wheels up time, that's up to you. I'm sure you are aware, however, that you are required to log items that are relevant to training and/or recency requirements.

-Andrew
 
It's really not that complicated.

Here's how 95% of people who do this stuff for a living log it.

From prop start to prop stop for the purpose of going flying I'm logging it off my watch.

If I just fire up to taxi across the airport, or for a mx task, I don't log it, as I was never planning on going up.


Fearless Tower said:
Your way only works if you start moving/taxiing as soon as you start the engine.
...
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Well of you want to be that picky about it, I bet if you put a micrometer infront of one of your main wheels, fired the engine up, the plane would move to some degree.
 
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James331 said:
It's really not that complicated.

Here's how 95% of people who do this stuff for a living log it.

From prop start to prop stop for the purpose of going flying I'm logging it off my watch.

If I just fire up to taxi across the airport, or for a mx task, I don't log it, as I was never planning on going up.
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That's exactly what I was saying!
 
ahkahn said:
That's exactly what I was saying!
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It seems like some folks are just determined to try to swim upstream for some reason.

Taking a simple task like logging hours and making it complicated. :dunno:
 
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ahkahn said:
I'm sure you are aware, however, that you are required to log items that are relevant to training and/or recency requirements.
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What is it about moving the aircraft without intention of flight relevant to training or recency requirements?
 
And in reality it's the logbook. It's an honor system. How many people have logged extra time anyway just to reach that magic 1500 hrs quicker. I'm sure a good amount of airline pilots were doing that to get to their ATP.
 
TommyG said:
And in reality it's the logbook. It's an honor system. How many people have logged extra time anyway just to reach that magic 1500 hrs quicker. I'm sure a good amount of airline pilots were doing that to get to their ATP.
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Integrity is about what you do when people aren't looking. It means more to some than others.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Your way only works if you start moving/taxiing as soon as you start the engine.

As to your other point, you seem to be confused with some idea that you are required to log PIC time. Are you aware that there is no requirement to log all flight time?

I could go fly my airplane for an hour right now and there would be no requirement for me to log it.
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61.51 interchanges use of must and may. For example:
(a) uses must in reference to training and aeronautical experience
(e) uses may in discussing PIC time

It could be argued that a pilot is required to document all aeronautical experience.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
You don't have to have a certificate to taxi an airplane.
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As a student, my CFI gave me permission to taxi to the fuel pumps prior to lessons without his further approval. IIRC he also did something's of the effect in writing. It may have been a school requirement or just his way of beginning to cut me loose.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Integrity is about what you do when people aren't looking. It means more to some than others.
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Following rules you made up in your head by reading too much into a reg is not integrity. It is silly and unamerican.
 
TommyG said:
And in reality it's the logbook. It's an honor system. How many people have logged extra time anyway just to reach that magic 1500 hrs quicker. I'm sure a good amount of airline pilots were doing that to get to their ATP.
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The majority don't in my experience.

If you BS up a lot of hours, make a mistake or say something that doesn't jive with your log book, it isn't too hard to bust someone's hours by cross checking a pilots log with the planes mx records and or time sheets, especially if it's a rental or other money making airplane where each flight is tracked and billed out.
 
Jaybird180 said:
61.51 interchanges use of must and may. For example:

(a) uses must in reference to training and aeronautical experience

(e) uses may in discussing PIC time



It could be argued that a pilot is required to document all aeronautical experience.
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Please tell me how you twist 'may' into required?
 
See what I mean by my first response - "my favorite pet peeve" ?
Almost as many different opinions as how or when to do a procedure turn.
(gigity gigity )
 
Taxiing to the runway the plane is moving for the purpose of taxiing. When you start the take off roll it is moving for the purpose of flight.

Let's just take the "as soon as it moves" to it's (il)logical conclusion.

I have 86 usable gallons in the Comanche. I pull it from the hangar, get in, start it up, let it roll slightly, do my brake check, and let it idle for the next 35 hours as it idles burning 2.3gph. (I probably sleep for a while as this goes on) I then resume taxiing to the runway, fly one lap around the pattern land, and put the plane away.

Are you really going to log 35.1 hours of flight time in your log book?
 
Greg Bockelman said:
You don't have to have a certificate to taxi an airplane.
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We are NOT talking about a certificate..... We are talking about logging an event.....:rolleyes:..

But to expand on your comment..... I have a beef...

Before the FAA mandated the huge fine for passengers being held hostage on a plane during a ground dela,y pilots would LOVE to just sit there for hours on the ground and let the clock tick so they get paid for doing nothing more then monitoring the APU... As airlines pay the crew from the time the door closes /pushback ...... they have absolutely NO incentive to actually fly the plane... An honest pilot would request a taxi clearance back to the gate to help the passengers.. But NOOOOOO... Their attitude was.... *uck the passengers.. We want our paycheck......

Thank god the FAA stopped that stupid pilot trick cold..:thumbsup:


Ps.. I think even 3 hours is insane to hold on the ground...:rolleyes:

And since Greg is a mod here, I fully expect to get booted for voicing my thoughts....:rolleyes2:

Happy Thanksgiving guys and gals...
 
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Fearless Tower said:
Please tell me how you twist 'may' into required?
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If you review 61.51, you will find that the FAA uses both terms. It can be argued that it was by design to require the logging of time in certain circumstances with "must" and optional for others with "may".
 
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