Worst Annual Inspection

Tom-D said:
you view a very small segment of the A&P community.
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Perhaps, I'd say it's been a wider view compared to lots of private GA pilots though.

Still, I'm not the only one, it is hard to find a good trust worthy and knowledgable hard working AP. In fact in post #36, your post, you said he employed the "wrong AP", seems like even you see that's it's more than 2% that are maybe not ideal.

Sadly you don't know what you don't know, and it costs money to know, even recommended folks can be iffy, depending on the experience level and work needed level of the recommender.

Luckily I've really only met 2 chitty APs, as in folks who I would rather have never let touch my aircraft.

Met lots others who were great mechanics, but business/customer service wise, they were a damn hot mess lol! No skin off my back, I got thick skin and will just through it back at them and annoy the heck out of them, end of the day plane is in great shape, they get paid, and I'm back again next time, still it's silly to have to suit up for battle to give someone your business.
 
I see a lot of lousy work on the PA46 fleet and the sad part is that it's only getting worse. It's hard to believe that some of the work I see on 1 mil $ Meridians looks like it was done by kindergartners. Don't trust the factory signs that these shops hang on the walls.
 
Tom-D said:
There is a real point here.. there are fewer and fewer IAs working the little airports. I'm seeing more and more specialists working small shops. such as fabric re-covering, avionics, engine rebuilds.
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that's good to see, maybe the avionic
weirdjim said:
I've been doing owner-assist now for about twenty years and in general I get two kinds of folks ... those who have bent wrenches on automobiles, boats and such who do the grunt work without complaint (and generally do pristine work) and those who think taking a cowl screw off is too much work. Not many in-betweeners, thank heavens.
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When I used to turn wrenches, my co workers always found it funny when I used old parts bags and zip locks along with pictures to keep everything organized and contaminant free.

I mean when you are dealing with thousands of dollars worth of parts you would think you'd want to make sure nothing bad happens
 
Thing about GA - there's no money in it. Maintenance on commercial or corporate aviation and most helicopters is paid for out of profits derived from use of the machine. In private GA that money has to come from somewhere else. So it's mostly just a recreational hobby and when things get tight or something major breaks it often gets set aside. When you get hired in a GA maintenance job they're going to be looking for someone with a "passion" for aviation because they aren't gonna pay you squat. They can't afford to. It's always been that way but nowadays there's a shortage of young folks with the passion that would drive one to do something that isn't going to pay off.

After 40 years as an A&P and subsequently an IA for about 20 years I now only provide services for owners who are completely competent and capable of turning their own wrenches and maintaining their own aircraft. I no longer have any interest in donating my time drilling out frozen fasteners and replacing rusty old nut plates because honestly, you can't charge a guy a hundred and fifty bucks to remove his cowl even if it took you half a Saturday afternoon to do it through no fault of your own. Likewise with troubleshooting butchered 40 year old electrical circuits or pretty much anything that runs through the firewall under the panel of an old Cessna or Piper. That's what you need passionate 20 year old kids for that will do it for practically nothing.

But, like I said, they're in short supply these days.
 
brien23 said:
Inspections done out of the back of a trunk of a car or one done at a FBO, what bad experiences have you had.
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Unfortunately, it was a "C" check that ended in the death of two of my friends on the first flight due to a reversed elevator trim from some young mechanics that were pressured I'm sure, to get the plane out.
Norman said:
And likt Tom, I've seen some planes come in that were so poorly maintained I wouldn't consider working on them.
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When I ran my shop this happened to us all the time. I hated telling owners how much it was going to cost to get their aircraft back up to an acceptable standard. They look at you all crazy when you show them that the panels haven't been removed for 12yrs and you know that because it was the last time it's been painted.... some of you know exactly what I'm talking about. But, they were getting "cheap" inspections..right?
mtuomi said:
After reading all these stories, I can't wait to start my first annual on my first plane very soon... :)
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Find someone or a few that you trust and be involved. That is what has worked for me in the past. I like silvaire have no interest in spending my weekends drilling out fasteners only to be hassled for how much it costs.
 
Norman said:
I think we should start a thread here about owners who are so cheap they think they should fly for free but think nothing of taking their Lexus to the dealer and paying $150 an hour. :rolleyes: There are probably more of them than bad mechanics. And likt Tom, I've seen some planes come in that were so poorly maintained I wouldn't consider working on them.
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You've found airplane owners who can afford Lexii?! Wow.

My fleet of 12-16 year old vehicles is jealous now. See what you did?!
 
I guess I'm lucky. The IA who sighs off my annual started working for the same FBO I worked for 20 years ago. To make a long story short, I open it up, he inspects it and gives me a discrepancy list. We discuss the list, I complete the work as agreed between the two of us, and he signs off my annual.

I park outside and only get in a hanger when doing my annual. So I plan what in addition to the annual is to be done that year. We rent the hanger for one month for $400. The inspection is normally $600.

If you don't know what to ask or you don't know what is needed, your bad as a pilot/owner.
 
James331 said:
Perhaps, I'd say it's been a wider view compared to lots of private GA pilots though.

Still, I'm not the only one, it is hard to find a good trust worthy and knowledgable hard working AP. In fact in post #36, your post, you said he employed the "wrong AP", seems like even you see that's it's more than 2% that are maybe not ideal.

Sadly you don't know what you don't know, and it costs money to know, even recommended folks can be iffy, depending on the experience level and work needed level of the recommender.

Luckily I've really only met 2 chitty APs, as in folks who I would rather have never let touch my aircraft.

Met lots others who were great mechanics, but business/customer service wise, they were a damn hot mess lol! No skin off my back, I got thick skin and will just through it back at them and annoy the heck out of them, end of the day plane is in great shape, they get paid, and I'm back again next time, still it's silly to have to suit up for battle to give someone your business.
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There are a multitude of A&P-IA across this country working their one man shops day after day year after year. Known only to their clientele they never gain the lime light. you never get to see them. Yet you can form an opinion of all A&Ps ??? I don't think so.
 
Tom-D said:
There are a multitude of A&P-IA across this country working their one man shops day after day year after year. Known only to their clientele they never gain the lime light. you never get to see them. Yet you can form an opinion of all A&Ps ??? I don't think so.
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Yeah, that one was kind of a head scratcher.

My AP and IA have a little shop on a semi-paved crop duster strip. Most pilots of the Class C nearby have never noticed the strip or landed there.

The mechanics have no website.
They have no advertising.
They have no lobby.
They have no customer service skills beyond being nice people.
They have all the work they want.
 
Tom-D said:
There are a multitude of A&P-IA across this country working their one man shops day after day year after year. Known only to their clientele they never gain the lime light. you never get to see them. Yet you can form an opinion of all A&Ps ??? I don't think so.
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Just the ones I run into, and the mass majority of them don't work in the big box FBOs.

Only this mans opinion, from what I've seen in my time in the industry, isn't ment to make you feel bad, or feel better, merely a observation.
 
James331 said:
Watcha getting at? :)
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I was replying to your post 37. read it see if you didn't imply you were judging the whole industry, with your 2% statement.
 
As I commented in another thread, my last annual was also my first, my worst and my last with that particular IA. The actual inspection took a day or so. Getting the parts back from overhaul took two weeks from send to install. Not a big deal. It was the laziness on the part of the IA to get my logs in order and back to me is what made it my first, worst and last.

Having said that. I'm confident that the A&P I used was very thorough and fair. I feel I'm flying a MUCH safer airplane than the one I bought.
 
Tom-D said:
I was replying to your post 37. read it see if you didn't imply you were judging the whole industry, with your 2% statement.
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And your point judges the whole industry as well, just in a different light.

I said it before, a few times actually, "from my experience"

And based on here, and from what you said about someone hiring the "wrong" AP, ether this board is the most unlucky group of pilots in the US, or it would appear, just from the average response on his board the bad apples might be a bit over 2% of the proverbial barrel.
 
I have had nothing but good experiences with air frame and power plant mechanics.

I am amazed at how hard and carefully they work and how little they charge.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
did you read the first post? Apparently folks working outta vehicle don't do good work.
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Some do, some don't. There's one who has been working my home drome for as long as I can remember. His reputation is sterling.

I also know of one who left a Mooney on jacks with the gear up overnight. He came in the next morning to find the plane had slipped off and the jacks had punctured both fuel tanks. :ohsnap:
 
Norman said:
Some do, some don't. There's one who has been working my home drome for as long as I can remember. His reputation is sterling.

I also know of one who left a Mooney on jacks with the gear up overnight. He came in the next morning to find the plane had slipped off and the jacks had punctured both fuel tanks. :ohsnap:
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That must have been a crappy call to make to the owner :\
 
I do all the work. Except compression check (he prefers to do that himself). He inspects, hands me a list of what he found to be fixed.
I fix it, he inspects again, and signs the logs. No worries. Then he'll put me to work, to pay my bill.
 
sferguson524 said:
That must have been a crappy call to make to the owner :\
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I can hear it now; " Well, the gear swing went well, but we need to re-seal your fuel tanks. You know, that "weepy wing" mooneys are prone to have. BTW we went ahead and fixed it for you. You owe me $20k."
 
bluerooster said:
I can hear it now; " Well, the gear swing went well, but we need to re-seal your fuel tanks. You know, that "weepy wing" mooneys are prone to have. BTW we went ahead and fixed it for you. You owe me $20k."
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I'll bet none of that happened until the insurance companies had their say on who pays.
 
I've noticed a trend among all kinds of mechanics (in my experience, car, boat, and airplane) toward being 'parts swappers'. No diagnostic ability, they simply take a guess at what part is the problem and replace stuff until it works. The concept of doing basic tests to isolate problems to a single part is apparently rocket surgery. Finding a good mechanic who has the ability to stop and think is a beautiful thing (and at this time it seems we've found one. Time will tell.).
 
cheap weenie said:
I've noticed a trend among all kinds of mechanics (in my experience, car, boat, and airplane) toward being 'parts swappers'. No diagnostic ability, they simply take a guess at what part is the problem and replace stuff until it works. The concept of doing basic tests to isolate problems to a single part is apparently rocket surgery. Finding a good mechanic who has the ability to stop and think is a beautiful thing (and at this time it seems we've found one. Time will tell.).
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Dont misunderstand me, part swappers drive me mad and I refuse to be one.

The other side of the story:
The problem with truly diagnosing the problem is that when it takes quite a bit of time and you may end up still replacing the suspect part, customers start complaining about the time you put into diagnosis rather than just knowing that part is bad.

It is a guessing game to know when to dig deeper and when to just change what is most likely wrong. You win some, you lose some.

Joshua
 
Most times a new part is the most effective way to repair.
Most freelanced A&Ps don't want the liability of tearing old stuff apart and trying to find the proper parts to repair.
Most good owners want new assemblies rather than old fixed stuff.
 
Tom-D said:
Most times a new part is the most effective way to repair.
Most freelanced A&Ps don't want the liability of tearing old stuff apart and trying to find the proper parts to repair.
Most good owners want new assemblies rather than old fixed stuff.
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Yes, new parts are exactly what we want. Throwing darts at a board of multi-hundred-dollar parts to decide which ones we're swapping today is the problem. A classic example is the well-reviewed guy I took an outboard to. He was quickly sure a $300 no-refunds electronic ignition module was the problem. Swapping two wires (the supply to that module and the second electronic ignition module) proved in two minutes that it wasn't the problem. "Oh, I didn't think of doing that". No, guess you didn't..... I don't expect mechanics to get it right first time every time. I do expect them to at least try.
 
cheap weenie said:
Yes, new parts are exactly what we want. Throwing darts at a board of multi-hundred-dollar parts to decide which ones we're swapping today is the problem. A classic example is the well-reviewed guy I took an outboard to. He was quickly sure a $300 no-refunds electronic ignition module was the problem. Swapping two wires (the supply to that module and the second electronic ignition module) proved in two minutes that it wasn't the problem. "Oh, I didn't think of doing that". No, guess you didn't..... I don't expect mechanics to get it right first time every time. I do expect them to at least try.
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Ended up being the stator?
 
cheap weenie said:
Yes, new parts are exactly what we want. Throwing darts at a board of multi-hundred-dollar parts to decide which ones we're swapping today is the problem. A classic example is the well-reviewed guy I took an outboard to. He was quickly sure a $300 no-refunds electronic ignition module was the problem. Swapping two wires (the supply to that module and the second electronic ignition module) proved in two minutes that it wasn't the problem. "Oh, I didn't think of doing that". No, guess you didn't..... I don't expect mechanics to get it right first time every time. I do expect them to at least try.
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When you call me and say your aircraft won't start, I'll go have a look, do a test or 2, then call you and see what you want to do because the starter is shot.
you will have 2 choices, you can pay me 8 hours labor to remove the starter bring it to my shop, disassemble it, clean it order parts for it, and wait a week until they arrive, and then assemble and install the starter. or you can brake out the CC and have a new one shipped to me next day.
Your choice.
 
Tom-D said:
When you call me and say your aircraft won't start, I'll go have a look, do a test or 2, then call you and see what you want to do because the starter is shot.
you will have 2 choices, you can pay me 8 hours labor to remove the starter bring it to my shop, disassemble it, clean it order parts for it, and wait a week until they arrive, and then assemble and install the starter. or you can brake out the CC and have a new one shipped to me next day.
Your choice.
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Where have I said I want you to rebuild parts? Never.
 
Well, I must be the outlier. Most of the airplane mechanics I know are decent folks.

I do a lot of my own maintenance. Yeah, I'm that guy, the farm kid that was wrenching on tractors at age 12, hot rods at 16, and airplanes at 24 (not professionally) On my plane the mechanic with the IA does the stuff I don't/can't do and he makes the paper work legal.
I do agree that most of the GA mechanics I know are older (well heck, they don't look that old to me) and I have not had much experience with the wet nose crowd - mostly for the reasons stated above about wanting to work on clean, shiny turbines, I suspect, which I don't own or fly..

Working on old GA airplanes is hard work. Compared to turbines where there is a manufacturers service manual that shows in color, all the steps to removing and replacing this or that (or a video) the 30-40-50 year old bug smasher manufacturer expected the mechanic to know how to do it just because he is a mechanic. And the machines tend to be oily, greasy, and dirty due to age. Part numbers (where available) tend to be superseded, yadda, yadda, and ingenuity is the mechanics best tool. And despite the fact that it may have taken three days of careful tinkering to repair some part that is no longer available it is difficult to lay a $3000+ labor charge on a $20,000 plane.

And there is the issue of experience. You have to pay a newly minted mechanic for the time he burns up teaching himself how to diagnose and repair something he has never seen before. Whereas my mechanic, The Kid - he is the kid because his father who ran the business before him was the old man - will shuffle up, tell you to start it up, stand there some kind of in a trance for a minute then shuffle away and go rooting through the dusty bins of old parts in the back room. When you ask what he found on the plane he just grunts and goes back to rooting. Comes out mumbling, 'I thought I had one'. And replaces the long obsolete and unavailable part that puts your plane back in service.

Case in point. A year ago I was taxiing out in Fat Albert The Apache and suddenly the plane yanked hard to the right. Long story short the right main wheel/hub had cracked, the rim came apart and sliced into the tube and tire. So had a plane standing there on one broken hub and unwilling to go anywhere while blocking the main taxiway.. Lots of clucking and flapping and feathers flying as the airport powers that be, went into hysterical meltdown. They are babbling about getting a tow truck to yank it off the taxiway. The Kid comes out, looks at it, grunts, and walks away. When I get to the shop ten steps behind him he says, help me, and we proceed to jack up an Arrow that was in for the annual and pop off the hub/tire assembly. Back on the ramp we jack my plane up and sho-nuff that Arrow hub/bearing fits on my spindle slick as a whistle and I taxi back my hangar, We pop it off and back onto the Arrow and he will go shopping for a used wheel assembly for me come Monday morning. Total time from break down to coffee time was 35 minutes. I doubt that new mechanic will find that information anywhere in his repair manuals.
 
cheap weenie said:
Where have I said I want you to rebuild parts? Never.
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I simply give my owners a choice.
I never buy parts for others aircraft. I can't afford the chance of getting stiffed with the costs.

Not that I would by any of my customers.
 
Dr. O said:
And there is the issue of experience. You have to pay a newly minted mechanic for the time he burns up teaching himself how to diagnose and repair something he has never seen before.
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I think you need to read :

§65.83 Recent experience requirements.
A certificated mechanic may not exercise the privileges of his certificate and rating unless, within the preceding 24 months—

(a) The Administrator has found that he is able to do that work; or

(b) He has, for at least 6 months—

(1) Served as a mechanic under his certificate and rating;

(2) Technically supervised other mechanics;

(3) Supervised, in an executive capacity, the maintenance or alteration of aircraft; or

(4) Been engaged in any combination of paragraph (b) (1), (2), or (3) of this section.
 
Dr. O said:
...Working on old GA airplanes is hard work. Compared to turbines where there is a manufacturers service manual that shows in color, all the steps to removing and replacing this or that (or a video)...
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If there is I've never seen one. Working on turbines is every bit as difficult, or more, than working on piston engines and contrary to popular belief they are every bit as dirty. In general though you don't do much to them other than maybe replace a pneumatic bleed valve, a pressure switch or an EGT probe and never get into the guts of the thing and they operate for tens of thousands of hours but if anything inside goes it's a BIG problem. The external components however can often be extremely difficult to access, remove and replace and you can exfoliate your knuckles on them just as well as you can on a Lycoming O-360. Ask my how I know...
 
Silvaire said:
If there is I've never seen one. Working on turbines is every bit as difficult, or more, than working on piston engines and contrary to popular belief they are every bit as dirty. In general though you don't do much to them other than maybe replace a pneumatic bleed valve, a pressure switch or an EGT probe and never get into the guts of the thing and they operate for tens of thousands of hours but if anything inside goes it's a BIG problem. The external components however can often be extremely difficult to access, remove and replace and you can exfoliate your knuckles on them just as well as you can on a Lycoming O-360. Ask my how I know...
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Anyone who thinks jets are clean has never dove the duct on one.
 
Turbines seem to have just as many problems as anything else. I'm not an engine guy but have worked at a large MRO almost 10 years now.

One of the most interesting things I saw was a nearly brand new Williams eat the driven gear on an oil pump. The filter was PACKED with metal.

Rivets that are part of the inlet assembly are a problem, constantly working and get ingested when the heads pop off.
 
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