"with you"

[mmilano]

i was just listening to my scanner and hearing a jet blue pilot say "so cal, jet blue with ya at 8 thousand" reminded me of a discussion on the red boards.

someone who is atc over there was saying how controllers hate when people say "with you" because it is redundant. anyone ever hear of that?

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

anyone ever hear of that?

All the time. I also hear withyou all the time. Seems like a never-ending and pointless argument that pilots are stuck with!

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Depends on the controller... Most of my contacts whether they're at Towers, Centers, or TRACONs have never brought it up with me before. (Yes, they have brought up other phraseology sayings/pet peeves/issues before)

I think even if it is not standard phraseology, and the controller can understand/comprehend and is okay with it, why not?

..but correct phraseology (or lack there of) can be equally shown on both sides of the scope. Both controllers and pilots seem to do it on occasion...or maybe more often; but of the variety of controllers I've gotten to know, as long as it works for them, it's fine to use when talking to them. If it's readable and comprehendable, why not? (Okay that was rheterical, don't bite me up on that, there are many other technical answers dictated in the AIM and FAAO 7110.65P)

I also believe it serves a nice purpose to radar controllers (Center and TRACON). When you say:

"New York Approach, Skyhawk 12345 is with you at...."

The "with you" serves as a pause so the controller can find your full datablock and target and confirm it with what you are about to say (altitude and/or position).

"New York Approach, Skyhawk 12345 at 5,000" --While that's showing brevity and is indeed concise, that will still work, but the controller may have to wait a few seconds to find ya. (Of course, if you were handed off, they should know where ya'are, since the datablock flashes when an automatic handoff is initiated and you must slew the target and accept it to complete the handoff...AKA: "Clicking the target to accept the handoff"..therefore you then know it's position [The flashing really helps too ]

Jason

P.S. And to answer your question..I hear it a whole lot on my scanner and on www.liveatc.net

 

[n20junkie]

i am a fellow "with ya" user,

 

[SkyHog]

i am a fellow "with ya" user,

I usually avoid it, but from time to time I'll use it to see if the controller gets upset. Haven't heard one yet.

I usually say "Approach (or whatever), Cherokee 8816J, level 7 thousand, 5 hundred" or something like that

 

[Henning]

i was just listening to my scanner and hearing a jet blue pilot say "so cal, jet blue with ya at 8 thousand" reminded me of a discussion on the red boards.

someone who is atc over there was saying how controllers hate when people say "with you" because it is redundant. anyone ever hear of that?

Guilty, however have never had a complaint or irritated sounding response. This whole paring phraseology down to thread bare minimums seems a bit rediculous except in the most extreme circumstances. I've had KC Center telling jokes at 0200, I appreciated the heck out of that on a long boring flight.

 

[mmilano]

i figured as much. i'm sure the majority of controllers don't get their panties in a wad over that.

the only time a controller really got off the regular chat with me so far is when i completed my first solo .. he congratulated me and told me i don't need that instructor anymore.

 

[Richard]

Well, if they're not receiving radar services are they really wid chu?

 

[mmilano]

it just seems like a natural thing to say .. even if it's not for flight following .. you're now with them on this frequency.

i hear "good day" from controllers a lot when they hand you off. this could be considered redundant and un-necessary, so i wonder if the same ones who complain say 'good day'.

 

[Richard]

it just seems like a natural thing to say .. even if it's not for flight following .. you're now with them on this frequency.

i hear "good day" from controllers a lot when they hand you off. this could be considered redundant and un-necessary, so i wonder if the same ones who complain say 'good day'.

Complain seems to be the wrong word. Being on freq means just that, nothing more. Maybe it was in IFR mag, maybe Avweb, I don't know, but I recall an article about how ATC did not like the 'with you' in the initial call up. The term implies something more than just being on freq. Among other things, it implies two way comm has been established which may not be the case technically speaking.

I'm curious to know in what way could 'good day' be redundant.

 

[Henning]

Well, if they're not receiving radar services are they really wid chu?

With rare exceptions enroute in the US, mostly low in the mountains, if I'm not receiving radar services, I'm not talking to them so, no 'with you' is issued.

 

[ScottM]

I also believe it serves a nice purpose to radar controllers (Center and TRACON). When you say:

"New York Approach, Skyhawk 12345 is with you at...."

The "with you" serves as a pause so the controller can find your full datablock and target and confirm it with what you are about to say (altitude and/or position).

Yes but you get the same pause by say '12345 Level, Climbing, Decending etc. @ ....' and are you saying standard phraseology.

 

[Henning]

I usually avoid it, but from time to time I'll use it to see if the controller gets upset. Haven't heard one yet.

I usually say "Approach (or whatever), Cherokee 8816J, level 7 thousand, 5 hundred" or something like that

le-vel, with you... two sylables each... as my Japanese shipmate used to say "same-same". If I'm changing alts at the time, I'll give an "out of___ for___" instead of "with you".

 

[gibbons]

I was fussed at once by Ft. Worth Center for the "with you" call. When I was working on my instrument rating I became enthralled with the whole radar/flight following thing. I was on a VFR cross country and decided to call center and ask for flight following. "Ft. Worth center, Piper xxxx is with you at 5,500 feet." "Piper xxxx, OK you're with me but who are you? I've never heard of you. Are you in the system?" I received an embarrassing lecture over the radio on how "with you" implies that I'm already in the system, have been handed off to the controller and he/she is expecting me. I was not to use it on initial contact.

That was almost 20 years ago but that guy broke me of the "with you" habit. When I'm handed off now I use "checking in". On initial contact I stick to the script. No doubt I will someday talk to a controller who doesn't like "checking in", but I doubt it will have the same impact on me. I'm too old and cranky to take much of an ass chewing over the radio any more.

 

[Greebo]

Well, if they're not receiving radar services are they really wid chu?

With rare exceptions enroute in the US, mostly low in the mountains, if I'm not receiving radar services, I'm not talking to them so, no 'with you' is issued.

And if the person calling is NOT receiving radar services, then there is a clearly defined set of things that are supposed to be included in the callup, and while its a lot more than just your altitude, "wid ya" isn't one of them.

 

[poadeleted20]

I think even if it is not standard phraseology, and the controller can understand/comprehend and is okay with it, why not?

Because it isn't standard, it wastes bandwidth, it communicates
nothing, and it annoys controllers.

Anybody here ever fly in a country where the primary language isn't English? I've done that, and it's scary when the locals are talking in French, or whatever, and I have no idea what they're saying, i.e., I can't tell they are or what they're doing. Put yourself in the cockpit of Air Lithuania flying into the USA, where the crew has gone to the trouble of learning Aviation English, and you start saying things that aren't in their phrase book -- it's bad safety news.

If you want to drop a polite "g'morning" in there, OK, but in general, when it comes to comm with ATC, keep it simple, keep it standard, and keep it short -- and "with you" just isn't part of that. To most controllers, it's like fingernails on a blackboard, so just don't do it.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Because it isn't standard, it wastes bandwidth, it communicates
nothing, and it annoys controllers.

Anybody here ever fly in a country where the primary language isn't English? I've done that, and it's scary when the locals are talking in French, or whatever, and I have no idea what they're saying, i.e., I can't tell they are or what they're doing. Put yourself in the cockpit of Air Lithuania flying into the USA, where the crew has gone to the trouble of learning Aviation English, and you start saying things that aren't in their phrase book -- it's bad safety news.

If you want to drop a polite "g'morning" in there, OK, but in general, when it comes to comm with ATC, keep it simple, keep it standard, and keep it short -- and "with you" just isn't part of that. To most controllers, it's like fingernails on a blackboard, so just don't do it.

I guess a LOT of airline pilots need remedial training on phraeology then. If you bring up any random class B feed from www.liveatc.net I'm sure in the first 5 minutes of being handed off to/from other controllers you will hear the airline pilots doing it wayyyy too often. I belive it happens more in enroute environments so opening an ARTCC feed can also show it.

I'm not saying, 'if the airline guys can do it we can too.' ...but reality is that it happens and I don't know of any enroute controllers that dislike it that much. I do understand your point with international pilots in the cockpit and I full agree with you. It would be very confusing.

 

[mmilano]

I'm curious to know in what way could 'good day' be redundant.

when they tell you to switch frequencies, that is enough of a goodbye. 'good day' is not needed to break communication. the pilot already knows he is leaving this frequency and the words and wastes just as much air time as 'with you'. i said redundant because the guy i read complaining about it said 'with you' was. i suppose both terms are more un-necessary than redundant.

i'm not saying i don't like it, i think it's nice. but if we were getting technical and analyzing air time, then we must consider it.

i don't use 'with you' in any case because of the big rant i read on aopa a few months ago. my instructor does, and then i heard that airliner pilot use it, .. so that is why i asked here.

ron, good points about international travel and non standard communications. I'm wondering if I would be confused if they said good day in their language.

P.S. And to answer your question..I hear it a whole lot on my scanner and on www.liveatc.net

thanks for the link jason

 

[HPNPilot1200]

when they tell you to switch frequencies, that is enough of a goodbye. 'good day' is not needed to break communication. the pilot already knows he is leaving this frequency and the words and wastes just as much air time as 'with you'. i said redundant because the guy i read complaining about it said 'with you' was. i suppose both terms are more un-necessary than redundant.

Don't get me wrong, yes it could save airtime not to say it, but it is a common greeting on the frequency. When it is busy and non-stop instructions being spit out by the controller, I never hear "good-day" at the end. I only hear pilots saying it when the controller says it. If the controller doesn't say it, it usually means he's busy with another aircraft and/or other tasks.

thanks for the link jason

Your most welcome

 

[ggroves]

The only person who ever corrected me on "with you" was my CFII/friend/retired ATC controller. Other than that, no one has ever squawked about "with you" or "checking in".

Now....I absolutely refuse to use "No Joy". It just sounds goofy...(sorry x-military guys..). And..they don't want to hear..."I'm looking", blah, blah, blah.....they want to hear "In Sight" or "Negative Contact".

The one that kills me is "I've got him on the fish finder", or the nerd with Mode-S/TIS in the Cessna that says "I've got him on TCAS".....no you don't.... They want to hear "In Sight" or "Negative Contact". I heard a 121 guy get chewed for the "fishfinder" one time.

Greg
CFII

 

[mmilano]

i heard "we don't see the hostile" today on the liveatc site. lol

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Since PPL, I don't use it anymore because technically it's not needed and so we shouldn't use it by that definition but, in reality, it probably doesn't make enough difference to matter either pro or con, unless the Freqs are really congested, which as we all know often are very difficult to get a word in edgewise.

 

[SkyHog]

Tally ho. How irritating to hear that. Everytime I hear it I think: "Wow - you impressed ATC and me with one phrase! Way to go."

Just use In Sight, or Negative Contact. Its there for a reason.

 

[Bones]

I'm guilty, I've never got a chewing for it and I think I agree with Hennig's first respones. It all depends who is working...its very subjective and I don't really care unless its very very busy, then its Trees, Pa Pas, Niners, and Queens English.

 

[Henning]

And if the person calling is NOT receiving radar services, then there is a clearly defined set of things that are supposed to be included in the callup, and while its a lot more than just your altitude, "wid ya" isn't one of them.

Correct. The only time I use a With You, is on a handoff when I'm already in the system.

I was fussed at once by Ft. Worth Center for the "with you" call. When I was working on my instrument rating I became enthralled with the whole radar/flight following thing. I was on a VFR cross country and decided to call center and ask for flight following. "Ft. Worth center, Piper xxxx is with you at 5,500 feet." "Piper xxxx, OK you're with me but who are you? I've never heard of you. Are you in the system?" I received an embarrassing lecture over the radio on how "with you" implies that I'm already in the system, have been handed off to the controller and he/she is expecting me. I was not to use it on initial contact.

I completely agree with that, initial calls are different from handoffs. The 'with you' is just to acknowledge that I have made the freq change and have re-established comms on his/her freq and they can correlate my voice with that flashing doo dad on their screen. On top of that I'm a really bad boy since when the freq is relatively clear, I'll even prefix my call with "Good Morning, Day or Evening". Naughty me, I must be punished. It's kinda funny in this thread though, you can see the difference between the NE Corridor people verses the southerners and westerners. The southerners and westerners (even LA Basin where I learned my habits) spend an extra few words for a personal raport where as the NE people are minimalist. Kinda like in TX driving down the roads people who have absolutely no idea who each other are, will always put out a wave as they pass, or walking down the street is eye contact and a nod at minimum. Try that in NYC, natives have no idea how to react, it takes them a moment to figure out that someone who doesn't know them acknowledges that they exist. I love doing it in Manhattan and watching the reactions.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

I completely agree with that, initial calls are different from handoffs. The 'with you' is just to acknowledge that I have made the freq change and have re-established comms on his/her freq and they can correlate my voice with that flashing doo dad on their screen. On top of that I'm a really bad boy since when the freq is relatively clear, I'll even prefix my call with "Good Morning, Day or Evening". Naughty me, I must be punished. It's kinda funny in this thread though, you can see the difference between the NE Corridor people verses the southerners and westerners. The southerners and westerners (even LA Basin where I learned my habits) spend an extra few words for a personal raport where as the NE people are minimalist. Kinda like in TX driving down the roads people who have absolutely no idea who each other are, will always put out a wave as they pass, or walking down the street is eye contact and a nod at minimum. Try that in NYC, natives have no idea how to react, it takes them a moment to figure out that someone who doesn't know them acknowledges that they exist. I love doing it in Manhattan and watching the reactions.

Well there's always gotta be one oddball. Im the New Englander who uses "with you" when I'm in the system and was handed off. I run a ZBW (Boston Center) feed @ http://www.liveatc.net/feedindex.php?type=class-d-center (Currently down, but will be up on Sunday and is listed under BDR) and I hear this non-stop. "Boston Centaaa, USA102 with ya at FL330." "Boston Center, King Air 1234B with you, climbing 1-2-thousand for 17."

I just can't help it

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

wrote: Stuff about regional differences in agitation levels

Bingo!

ps where are all these complaining controllers? Id bet most of them are crotchety old guys who are either burned out, harassed by their spouses.... or about to retire anyway.

 

[HPNFlyGirl]

Even though I lived in the south most my life now, I was taught to say "22055 is with you." I would NEVER say "22055 is with 'yall'"

 

[Everskyward]

There was a controller at Denver TRACON, long since retired, I think, who would hand everyone off with "dandy day!" I always wondered if that's where they got the idea for the DANDD arrival.

I agree that the middle of the country is a little more relaxed about things because there is less traffic. I've heard people on the frequency ask, "You still there?" because they haven't heard anything in a long time. I do this on occasion myself since I've missed handoffs before.

As far as "with you" goes, I think the only time I use it is in, "with you on the visual."

 

[Dean]

As for the "with you", I do not use it, but I do use "Checking in" when handed off to another controller. I think it has a lot to do with the location where you are flying. In the MO it is not uncommon for ATC to carry on a short conversations with you. I was going to 2K2 this fall and the controller ask who I knew there and if I was going to eat at Lamberts. The only time I had a controller bark at me was when I was using flight following in Oklahoma. I saw a plane heading my way and ask for a altitude on it. The female controller told me if the plane was any factor to me, she would let me know. Plane crossed over me at about 500' and she never said any more about it.

 

[Henning]

I was going to 2K2 this fall and the controller ask who I knew there and if I was going to eat at Lamberts.

He he, ever have em pitch a fastball roll to ya?

 

[Dean]

He he, ever have em pitch a fastball roll to ya?

Yep! Great place, I have been to the one at Ozark and Sikeston. Airport at Sikeston is much nicer.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I employ very boring, concise radio procedures:

Baron 322KS, 8,000.

Or Baron 322KS 8,000 climbing Flight Level 180

Baron 322KS, request.

Only after check in, if the controller opens it up will I chat or have a little fun. If the frequency is congested, just the above.

Sometimes it does bother me to hear the talking heads ramble on when things are busy. I've had a couple times when I was trying to deviate for weather and couldn't get on the radio because someone couldn't orgainze their thoughts a little. Otherwise, it is nice to hear a little change in the com procedures.

Dave

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

He he, ever have em pitch a fastball roll to ya?

WT_ ?
What is that ?

 

[Dean]

WT_ ?
What is that ?

Dave,
Lamberts is a well known eatery in Missouri that has homemade rolls that are the size of softballs. They come out with a big cart full and pitch them at whoever wants one. They walk around with fried taters, okra, black beans, macaroni and tomatos to have with your meal. If you eat all that you ordered and want more you get seconds, FREE!. Lines to get in are long, but if you fly in, they will pick you up at the airport and take you in the back door and put you in the front of the line. There are two of them in MO, one at Ozark(West side of MO), the other at Sikeston(East side).

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Dave,
Lamberts is a well known eatery in Missouri that has homemade rolls that are the size of softballs. They come out with a big cart full and pitch them at whoever wants one. They walk around with fried taters, okra, black beans, macaroni and tomatos to have with your meal. If you eat all that you ordered and want more you get seconds, FREE!. Lines to get in are long, but if you fly in, they will pick you up at the airport and take you in the back door and put you in the front of the line. There are two of them in MO, one at Ozark(West side of MO), the other at Sikeston(East side).

Ahhh, the wonderful benefits of flying

 

[gismo]

Lines to get in are long, but if you fly in, they will pick you up at the airport and take you in the back door and put you in the front of the line.

Must be the owner or manager is a pilot?

 

[poadeleted20]

I guess a LOT of airline pilots need remedial training on phraeology then.

Based on 35 years of listening to air carrier pilots talking, I agree completely.

"Helllllloooooooo, Dover, Piedmont forty-three twenty-one is with ya outta six point five fer five." (Yes, I actually heard this one.)

"G'd afternoon, Dover Approach, Tiger two two romeo lima passing six thousand five hundred descending five thousand."

Who sounds more professional? Which would be understood better if it were France Control rather than Dover Approach?

I think many air carrier pilots believe that the use of nonstandard shorthand lingo and phrasing somehow demonstrates superior airmanship, when all it does is demonstrate unprofessionalism. More than once I've heard that sort of inappropriate verbiage cause big trouble, especially overseas where the controllers don't speak the same idiomatic brand of American English. Controllers lose their jobs if they don't use book phraseology -- I'd like to see air carriers hold their pilots to the same standard.

And if you ever hear Tiger 22RL sound like example #1 above, you may feel free to smack me publicly.

 

[Shipoke]

Well i'm guilty of using "with You " and Good whatever, I've never had a controller say anything about it, But then again i always use Flight Following. I personally say Harrisburg Approach Warrior 8085A is with you at 2500 inbound for CXY, that give them a idea of what i'm flying,how high i am, and where i'm going . as far as Good day when i leave a freq. i use it as to say Thank You for your assistance. I think ATC does a great job and would like to know when you have changed Freq. and that they are appreciated, But thats my opinion. I've also had ATC tell me change to a freq. and have a good day my self, but that may just be the controller around here . Dave G

 

[Doug R]

Does not really bother me that much. Usually I check on with "Hello Center N#1234 (ALtitude). Short simple ..when leaving, if center is not to busy leave them with a "good day". With approach I'll keep all none needed chatter to a min. The chkn in or with you pilots are few.

First:
Its the "Departure this is (Type) November 1234 ah ....ah with you at 7,500 over elcerito river aaahhh....about 20 miles northwest of whatever airport ...would like to pick up flight follow to ah.....ahhh...whatever airport and fly at an altitude of 7,500 sqking 1200 over". Because of this long broadcast ..five handoffs two vectors for traffic were missed because the controller could not get a word in.

Second:
Self appointed 121.50 police. Some pilot 350 miles away makes a mistake and broadcasts on 121.50...then some knothead decides he will recite War and Peace to him.....in the meantime I have Center tearing me a new tailend because I missed his handoff call two times..well i could not hear him given my freindly 121.50 police was broadcasting to the world.

Small things like chkn in or with you are just things that some people like and some don't. Its not correct but does happen. It's the frequency congestion caused by someone not proficient with using radios or being the standing authority of radio use that seems to creat most of the problems for me.