With You

Terry

Terry

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Display name:
Terry
Hi All:

I was taught to say, "3510A with you at 5,000." (just an example)

I am told a lot on this board and thr red board that this phrase is "stupid."

What should I say? And doesn't the FAR/AIM use the above phrase?

Terry :dunno:
 
Ft. Worth Center, Bonanza 4416 whiskey, level niner thousand.
 
What you say is "[ATC facility name], November three five one zero alpha, level five thousand," just as recommended in the AIM. And no, the AIM does not use the phrase "with you."
 
The other phrase that eats at me is... "to the active" or "clear the active." Exactly, which runway is the "active?" At a non-towered airport, there is the "runway in use" but in such a situation any given available runway can become the "active" at any given time.

I'd rather know which runway you're holding short of, positioned on, departing, landing and clearing.
 
KennyFlys said:
The other phrase that eats at me is... "to the active" or "clear the active." Exactly, which runway is the "active?" At a non-towered airport, there is the "runway in use" but in such a situation any given available runway can become the "active" at any given time.

I'd rather know which runway you're holding short of, positioned on, departing, landing and clearing.
Click to expand...
Not sure how that answers the OP's question...but I agree that it is annoying.

Terry said:
Hi All:

I was taught to say, "3510A with you at 5,000." (just an example)

I am told a lot on this board and thr red board that this phrase is "stupid."

What should I say? And doesn't the FAR/AIM use the above phrase?

Terry :dunno:
Click to expand...

I asked the same question regarding "with you" when I showed up on the board and saw the hatred. I soon learned that it was much easier to avoid the phrase than I originally I thought.

The hardest one for me to learn was the transition from approach to tower. It's just so easy to say "Tower, 1234T with you", but in the end you could convey more information with the same amount of words. How about "Tower, 1234T inbound 17"? Same length, but infinitely more helpful to the guy in the tower juggling airplanes.

Transition to approach from tower: "Approach, 1234T climbing through 3000"

Transition from one center controller to another: "Podunk center, 1234T 3000 climbing 5000" or "Podunk center, 1234T level 8000"

As hard as I tried to justify that it wasn't a big deal and that I hear mil and airline pilots using it...in the end, it just proved to be useless filler.
 
FlyNE said:
Not sure how that answers the OP's question...but I agree that it is annoying.
Click to expand...
Just speaking to improper procedure being not only annoying but could be misleading and open an opportunity for potential problems.
 
Maybe that's why nothing was on channel 9 on UA 884 from ICN to NRT today. The pilot didn't want me to hear him say 'with you'. :D
 
MS Flight Simulator (2004) uses "with you" in their conversations between pilots and ATC. I find myself fighting the habit to use that phrase myself.

The four phrases I was taught regarding altitude reporting are "level", "leaving", "climbing", and "descending". e.g., Cessna 1234T leaving 3,000, climbing 5,000.

I also am learning to avoid "to" and "for". e.g., Cessna 1234T leaving 3,000 climbing to 5,000 (sounds like climbing 25 thousand!)
________
VN2000
 
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FlyNE said:
How about "Tower, 1234T inbound 17"? Same length, but infinitely more helpful to the guy in the tower juggling airplanes.
Click to expand...

I've started to say "VFR" (when I'm VFR) rather than "inbound" when I'm at a class C... One more little thing in that the tower guy knows he doesn't have a flight plan to close for me.

I still haven't figured out what the best way is to let 'em know I'm parking on the South ramp. At MSN, all transients, all of the rental planes, all of the based outside tie-down planes, and a few hangared planes go to the East ramp. Most of the based aircraft with hangars go to the South ramp.

Best case: Tower recognizes my tail number 'cuz I fly a lot (and the plane flies more than I do) and just sends me to the south ramp.

Other than that, though, since most planes are going to the East ramp, that assumption is often made by the tower. The next best cases are when either Tower will specifically ask "271G, where do you park?" or I call them as I'm slowed down and about to exit and say "Tower, 71G goes to the South ramp." Otherwise, I'll hear "271G, left on Charlie, taxi to the East ramp" or somesuch depending what runway I landed on, and I have to call them back and tell them I go to the South ramp, and they have to give me new taxi instructions.

Y'know, this would probably be a lot easier if they actually used their ground control frequency now and then! The vast majority of the time, we stay with Tower until shutdown. The field isn't very complicated and it's somewhat rare to have to taxi across an active runway due to the layout and usage of the runways.

Oh well, I guess that makes up for my concise inbound call... "Madison Approach, Skylane 271G 25 northeast four thousand five hundred landing with Uniform."
 
KennyFlys said:
The other phrase that eats at me is... "to the active" or "clear the active." Exactly, which runway is the "active?" At a non-towered airport, there is the "runway in use" but in such a situation any given available runway can become the "active" at any given time.

I'd rather know which runway you're holding short of, positioned on, departing, landing and clearing.
Click to expand...

In reguards to "clear of the active"..,
At and uncontrolled feild, with only one runway... it really doesn't matter which way you were useing it as long as you are off of it now. I only use "clear of the active" when I know there was someone waiting to take off that would not be able to see my turn off due to some obstruction. Other then that it's a waste of breath.

Missa
 
wsuffa said:
Oh, here we go....
Click to expand...
Aw Bill, that's half the fun of being an internet old-timer: rehashing the same old topics. ;)

I do like these discussions a bit, because they help pilots dispel bad habits. I know I switched to an authoritative "negative contact" response to traffic advisories after a rousing discussion over that issue on the red board.

Perhaps "with you" sounds studly to non-aviation people, but "got 'em on the fish finder" sure doesn't. :rofl:


-Rich
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I still haven't figured out what the best way is to let 'em know I'm parking on the South ramp. At MSN, all transients, all of the rental planes, all of the based outside tie-down planes, and a few hangared planes go to the East ramp. Most of the based aircraft with hangars go to the South ramp.
Click to expand...

Just add "South Ramp" at the end of your first call. I'd also drop the "Landing with" as the tower will assume you want to land unless you specify something else (not a big deal, just my preference). "Madison Tower, Skylane 271G 25 northeast four thousand five hundred, Information Uniform, South Ramp."
I do this now and then coming into my home base but pretty much never anywhere else.

Edit, you went from talking to the tower to a call to approach and I missed that. Assuming you had already checked in with approach, the first call to the tower is where you give your parking information. The call I'd use is:

"Madison Tower, Skylane 271G, Visual One-Four, South Ramp."
 
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Terry said:
And doesn't the FAR/AIM use the above phrase?
Click to expand...

Terry,
Take a look at the AIM sections 4-2-1 & 5-3-1(b).

5-3-1 says:
(name) CENTER, (aircraft identication), LEVEL (altitude or flight level)
and
(name) CENTER, (aircraft identication), LEAVING (exact altitude or flight level), CLIMBING TO or DESCENDING TO (altitude or flight level)
Click to expand...
 
rpadula said:
I do like these discussions a bit, because they help pilots dispel bad habits. I know I switched to an authoritative "negative contact" response to traffic advisories after a rousing discussion over that issue on the red board.

Perhaps "with you" sounds studly to non-aviation people, but "got 'em on the fish finder" sure doesn't. :rofl:


-Rich
Click to expand...

"No Joy" is always a good... err... bad one..

Hopefully that one will die a slow and painful death at some point.. right after "any traffic.. blah , blah, blah..."
 
If I feel a little crowded at the local aerodrome is it ok to ad the word "heavy" after my call so that ATC will increase the in trail spacing? Something like "Podunk tower Skyhawk 1234 HEAVY, with you at 3000, landing with bravo, any traffic in the area please advise"?:yes::yes::rofl::rofl:
 
Ron Levy said:
What you say is "[ATC facility name], November three five one zero alpha, level five thousand," just as recommended in the AIM. And no, the AIM does not use the phrase "with you."
Click to expand...
Interestingly, though, there is one FAA publication that does. The Balloon Flying Handbook has a communication example that uses "with you."
 
FlyNE said:
The hardest one for me to learn was the transition from approach to tower. It's just so easy to say "Tower, 1234T with you", but in the end you could convey more information with the same amount of words. How about "Tower, 1234T inbound 17"? Same length, but infinitely more helpful to the guy in the tower juggling airplanes.
Click to expand...
I almost never used "with you" to begin with, but one place that it creeped into my lingo was when being switched from one Tower frequency to another at an airport with multiple runways and a second frequency that was used when things got really busy.

"Contact Tower now on 123.7"

Other than indicating that you were on the new frequency (which of course they knew as soon as you gave your call sign), there's really not usually a heck of a lot of other information to convey. And the silence of just saying my call number was deafening. ("with you" is, after all, just a harmless filler word that conveys no information but fills a need to say =something=).

I finally got rid of it. I came to realize that sometimes the controllers would have both frequencies up and that saying, N1234X on 123.7 met my need to say something, while making it at least potentially useful.
 
When I'm in the situation, I use:

(name) Tower, N481W landing (runway number)

It fills the void and let's the controllers and others know where I'm headed.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I've started to say "VFR" (when I'm VFR) rather than "inbound" when I'm at a class C... One more little thing in that the tower guy knows he doesn't have a flight plan to close for me.

I still haven't figured out what the best way is to let 'em know I'm parking on the South ramp. At MSN, all transients, all of the rental planes, all of the based outside tie-down planes, and a few hangared planes go to the East ramp. Most of the based aircraft with hangars go to the South ramp.
Click to expand...

Include it at the end of your first transmission with the tower. I highly doubt approach is going to bother calling the tower on the landline to tell him where you're going to park.

"Madison Tower, Skylane Two Seven One Golf, left base runway two one, parking south ramp."

In regards to including VFR in your transmissions to a class C tower when inbound, it's probably not all that necessary if the tower has radar since ATC is going to put you into the system as a VFR. Once the approach controller flashes your datablock over to the tower to accept, the local controller will see you're VFR since the equipment automatically appends a V to your datablock to the right of your aircraft type/airspeed timeshare.

Your datablock will look like:
N271G*
021 C182 V

But I'm getting too technical. Stupid ATC geekish factor I have...
 
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When I'm going somewhere at a towered field.

Cleveland Approach, Cherokee 2-2-1-2-Romeo, 4-0 west, 3 thousand 5 hundred, I-X Jet, with Echo.

They know who, where, what/where, with.
 
I'm just a student pilot, so take this with a grain of salt, and I'm sure I'm about to get blasted, but what harm is there in saying "with you", or "checking in", or anything of that nature that I hear the jet jockeys saying on the radio all of the time?
 
t0r0nad0 said:
I'm just a student pilot, so take this with a grain of salt, and I'm sure I'm about to get blasted, but what harm is there in saying "with you", or "checking in", or anything of that nature that I hear the jet jockeys saying on the radio all of the time?
Click to expand...
The harm is that any lack of radio discipline leads to radio congestion.

When the radio's are calm and quiet, a few extra syllables don't matter much. But when the radios are busy, for example, around Class B space where controllers have plenty to do already, adding two syllables per pilot checking in ties up the airwaves more than necessary.
 
Greebo said:
The harm is that any lack of radio discipline leads to radio congestion.

When the radio's are calm and quiet, a few extra syllables don't matter much. But when the radios are busy, for example, around Class B space where controllers have plenty to do already, adding two syllables per pilot checking in ties up the airwaves more than necessary.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Take a listen sometime to morning and afternoons through evening with JFK Tower sometime. You can pick it up on ATCLive.net. You can learn a lot there about good communication.
 
sbonek said:
"No Joy" is always a good... err... bad one..

Hopefully that one will die a slow and painful death at some point.. right after "any traffic.. blah , blah, blah..."
Click to expand...


I like "Target is acquired and we have lock"...:yes: :eek:
 
t0r0nad0 said:
I'm just a student pilot, so take this with a grain of salt, and I'm sure I'm about to get blasted, but what harm is there in saying "with you", or "checking in", or anything of that nature that I hear the jet jockeys saying on the radio all of the time?
Click to expand...
I agree with iGreebo. It's about discipline.

Remember that old Star Trek "Mirror Mirror" episode where there is a dimensional cross-over between the "good" and the "bad" Enterprise? The good Kirk is able to fool the bad crew, but as soon as the Bad Kirk comes on board the good Enterprise, Spock has him put in the brig. When good Kirk returns and asks Spock how he knew, Spock's reply is

==============================
It was far easier for you as civilized men to behave like barbarians than it was for them as barbarians to behave like civilized men.
==============================

If you learn and get in the habit of short, crisp AIM-standard communication, it will be far easier for you to use the vernacular and just shoot the breeze with controllers when appropriate, than it would be for you to keep those communications tight when needed if you get into habit of being sloppy and using a lot of filler words.

There are times that crispness of your communication as a VFR pilot can make the difference between establishing 2-way communication and being told "aircraft calling...stand by."
 
midlifeflyer said:
There are times that crispness of your communication as a VFR pilot can make the difference between establishing 2-way communication and being told "aircraft calling...stand by."
Click to expand...

Or, aircraft calling, remain clear of the class B/C airspace. I hear it all the time, proper calls get service, meandering babble takes the long way.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I agree with iGreebo. It's about discipline.

Remember that old Star Trek "Mirror Mirror" episode where there is a dimensional cross-over between the "good" and the "bad" Enterprise? The good Kirk is able to fool the bad crew, but as soon as the Bad Kirk comes on board the good Enterprise, Spock has him put in the brig. When good Kirk returns and asks Spock how he knew, Spock's reply is

==============================
It was far easier for you as civilized men to behave like barbarians than it was for them as barbarians to behave like civilized men.
==============================

If you learn and get in the habit of short, crisp AIM-standard communication, it will be far easier for you to use the vernacular and just shoot the breeze with controllers when appropriate, than it would be for you to keep those communications tight when needed if you get into habit of being sloppy and using a lot of filler words.

There are times that crispness of your communication as a VFR pilot can make the difference between establishing 2-way communication and being told "aircraft calling...stand by."
Click to expand...
Well put, Mark. I couldn't agree more.

I learned to fly at PBI, what is now Class C. As such, I was exposed to the occasional rapid-fire ATC calls from the get-go. Even now, I may not fly worth a damn but I can sure handle the radio.
 
KennyFlys said:
Agreed. Take a listen sometime to morning and afternoons through evening with JFK Tower sometime. You can pick it up on ATCLive.net. You can learn a lot there about good communication.
Click to expand...

Or listen to it and hear ALL of the "bad phrases" said around the world. Just yesterday I heard the dreaded "with you" at an airport in....AUSTRALIA!

Sometimes I use the word, though I try not too....I guess I am just a bad pilot. :(
 
midlifeflyer said:
There are times that crispness of your communication as a VFR pilot can make the difference between establishing 2-way communication and being told "aircraft calling...stand by."
Click to expand...

Bingo. I've gotten cleared through every Bravo I've wanted while VFR with no issues, even ATL which I heard is pretty rare, especially when I saw at least 14 jets lined up for wet departure.

"ATL Approach, Cherokee 2212R over Tara-Clayton, 2500, request Bravo transition, McCollum-Cobb"

"12R climb to 5,500, let me know when there, expect transition via radar vectors, squawk 1234."

"5,500, expect vectors, 1234, 12R"

Vectors ended up being 360 then direct, when I was on a line to RYY over Hartsfield, which is why I saw at least 14 of em lined up for takeoff. Heck, I even got a guided tour of Philadelphia from the controller last year after Wings.

Make the transmissions crisp and clean with no caffeine.
 
My favorite story about this phrase...

"Boondock Approach, Bonanza 12345, with you at 4000."
"Bonanza 12345, Boondock Approach, Uniform is no longer current, advise when you have Victor."
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
Include it at the end of your first transmission with the tower. I highly doubt approach is going to bother calling the tower on the landline to tell him where you're going to park.
Click to expand...

Heh... Yeah. I wasn't ever gonna say anything to Approach.

BTW, our TRACON is in the tower, next level down from the tower guys. Their high-tech system for departures consists of the tower clearing a plane for takeoff and then dropping their strip into one of two PVC pipes marked "East" or "West" where it falls down and lands in a basket next to the appropriate controller downstairs. :rofl:

In regards to including VFR in your transmissions to a class C tower when inbound, it's probably not all that necessary if the tower has radar since ATC is going to put you into the system as a VFR.
Click to expand...

Y'know, that's an excellent point, especially since they can probably see my 04xx squawk unless I've been on FF from far away.

I guess it's back to "Madison Tower, Arrow 2213Whiskey, right base runway 3" or "Madison Tower, Skylane 271G straight in 21 south ramp."

But I'm getting too technical. Stupid ATC geekish factor I have...
Click to expand...

Hey, technical is good. Us know-it-alls have to learn something now and then too ya know. ;)
 
Greebo said:
The harm is that any lack of radio discipline leads to radio congestion.

When the radio's are calm and quiet, a few extra syllables don't matter much. But when the radios are busy, for example, around Class B space where controllers have plenty to do already, adding two syllables per pilot checking in ties up the airwaves more than necessary.
Click to expand...

Its also about precision -- if you use the standard phrases, in the manner described in the AIM and Pilot/Controller glossary, everyone (you, ATC, and any other pilots on frequency) should unambiguously know what you asked for, where you are, etc.

--david
 
midlifeflyer said:
Other than indicating that you were on the new frequency (which of course they knew as soon as you gave your call sign), there's really not usually a heck of a lot of other information to convey. And the silence of just saying my call number was deafening. ("with you" is, after all, just a harmless filler word that conveys no information but fills a need to say =something=).
Click to expand...

Are there different controllers in this situation? For instance, switching between Madison Approach East on 120.1 and Madison Approach West on 135.45, I make the full callup 'cuz it's normally two different controllers.

I'm with you (hah) on the "Change to my frequency xxx.xx" ones though. I usually just say "<aircraft> is up on <frequency>." Just so I don't have to say "with you."
 
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