Why would anyone go to ATP now ?

cirrusmx said:
at 25 hrs multi you barely know how to fly multi. i want to know which airline hires pilots with 25 hrs of twin and 1475 hrs of bugsmashing in the practice area so i never fly with them.
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Any regional airline with pay so low that they don't get enough applicants with more.

There was a time (back in 2006-2007) where Mesa was hiring pilots with wet commercial tickets at 250 hrs and no multi rating and then getting them the rating as part of the deal.....but Mesa has always been a bottom feeder.
 
dans2992 said:
What if you aren't interested in 121? Is it harder to get into a corporate part 91 or 135 operation?
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From what I have gathered as an observer of the industry for the last few years, it is easier (time wise) to get hired 121 through the regionals than 135. There are a lot if 2000+ hour pilots with multi and turbine time looking for flying jobs that don't want to deal with the BS and crap pay of regional life.
 
James331 said:
Come again?
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You've continued to insinuate that I PFT'd at Ameriflight. How you get that idea, I have no idea
cirrusmx said:
at 25 hrs multi you barely know how to fly multi. i want to know which airline hires pilots with 25 hrs of twin and 1475 hrs of bugsmashing in the practice area so i never fly with them.
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Don't get on any regional then

pilottim said:
Do you know anything about their operation in Puerto Rico? It's a long way East, if it fits your theory. I'm living here now, thinking about applying to Amflight in a couple months.
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I don't, I know that most of the time you aren't going to be able to get direct hired there. But it's worth a shot, it's all high time flying.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
You've continued to insinuate that I PFT'd at Ameriflight. How you get that idea, I have no idea
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Dude I wasn't talking about you, I didn't even notice you were on this thread till you called me out

One edge a little :dunno:
 
Now that I think about it more, with the advent of the rATP pilots are going to the regionals with less experience than ever. 1000TT and 25 multi. Lol just lol. Fly aerial survey for 750 hrs in a 172 or 206 and you my friend are fully qualified to be a 121 FO
 
NJP_MAN said:
Now that I think about it more, with the advent of the rATP pilots are going to the regionals with less experience than ever. 1000TT and 25 multi. Lol just lol. Fly aerial survey for 750 hrs in a 172 or 206 and you my friend are fully qualified to be a 121 FO
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That really hasn't changed as a result of the new ATP rule.

What you are seeing is more a result of the large scale retirements going on at the majors and subsequent flow-thru of regional guys finally getting to move up into the right seat at the majors.

Whether or not you believe there is or will be a pilot shortage, the reality now is that regional pay and QOL stinks and subsequently, they have to reduce their hiring mins in order to accommodate the kids who are afflicted with SJS and want to fill the seats vacated by the guys that moved up to the big leagues.
 
I will say it sure sounds good on paper. Reading their website, the "Fast track" program sounds pretty good. But i do feel you dont get as good of quality instruction as you can at other places.
 
If you break down the hours, you can also do the same for less.
 
James331 said:
Dude I wasn't talking about you, I didn't even notice you were on this thread till you called me out

One edge a little :dunno:
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Sure, whatever. Why you consider the place scum for maximizing the profit they can make, is beyond me. But whatever, that's neither here nor there.

Fearless Tower said:
That really hasn't changed as a result of the new ATP rule.

What you are seeing is more a result of the large scale retirements going on at the majors and subsequent flow-thru of regional guys finally getting to move up into the right seat at the majors.

Whether or not you believe there is or will be a pilot shortage, the reality now is that regional pay and QOL stinks and subsequently, they have to reduce their hiring mins in order to accommodate the kids who are afflicted with SJS and want to fill the seats vacated by the guys that moved up to the big leagues.
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Except they can't lower the mins now, its hard and firm, ATP. Never again will 250 hour guys go from flight school to the RJ.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Sure, whatever. Why you consider the place scum for maximizing the profit they can make, is beyond me. But whatever, that's neither here nor there.







Except they can't lower the mins now, its hard and firm, ATP. Never again will 250 hour guys go from flight school to the RJ.
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Give it time. The schools are slowly buying off the congress critters. All they need is a good "crisis" to help it along.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Sure, whatever. Why you consider the place scum for maximizing the profit they can make, is beyond me. But whatever, that's neither here nor there.
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Because they are scum, using people desperation to make money is wrong, plenty of folks run a honest business and make better profits than ameriflight.

Find me someone experienced in the industry that supports PTF schemes.

Just one mans opinion, similarly, your support for those bottom feeders is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned.
 
James331 said:
Because they are scum, using people desperation to make money is wrong, plenty of folks run a honest business and make better profits than ameriflight.



Find me someone experienced in the industry that supports PTF schemes.



Just one mans opinion, similarly, your support for those bottom feeders is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned.
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They're just an extension of the entire college education system then, taking advantage of "people's desperation", if that's the problem.
 
denverpilot said:
They're just an extension of the entire college education system then, taking advantage of "people's desperation", if that's the problem.
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This. Also,how dare AMF take advantage of UPS for wanting to get their parcels to remote outstations and soliciting a service. If AMF wants to sell a seat to a Korean in a metro that would otherwise go unused, then that's their deal.

If you want to be paid to fly for AMF then apply since they are always hiring you can always go that route too.
 
denverpilot said:
They're just an extension of the entire college education system then, taking advantage of "people's desperation", if that's the problem.
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Is it that you don't understand PTF, or you don't understand college?

NJP_MAN said:
This. Also,how dare AMF take advantage of UPS for wanting to get their parcels to remote outstations and soliciting a service. If AMF wants to sell a seat to a Korean in a metro that would otherwise go unused, then that's their deal.

If you want to be paid to fly for AMF then apply since they are always hiring you can always go that route too.
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Same question.
 
you know the 1900 and the metro do not require a second pilot. AMF is offering a service to anybody willing to pay for it. I don't like it but that's how business is. I don't have children but I have to pay taxes that cover schools and teachers. I don't like it but that's how it goes.
 
James331 said:
Is it that you don't understand PTF, or you don't understand college?




Same question.
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So, if you're opposed to PFT, who paid to get your certificates then?

I would agree with you, if the 2nd seat was a required crew member. In this case, its not.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
OpSpecs allow for use of an SIC, don't require it.
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So, other than desperate regionals, who hires seat warmers like that?

Obviously, if a guy shows up for a 135 interview and logbook review, they are going to know he paid to sit there.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
So, if you're opposed to PFT, who paid to get your certificates then?

I would agree with you, if the 2nd seat was a required crew member. In this case, its not.
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Who paid for my ratings, up to my CPL I did, of course.

After my CPL my EMPLOYERS paid ME for the flight time in my log, that's how real pilots EARN their ATPs.


Fearless Tower said:
So, other than desperate regionals, who hires seat warmers like that?

Obviously, if a guy shows up for a 135 interview and logbook review, they are going to know he paid to sit there.
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Hired implies they are WORKING pilots, which ain't the case with PTF scum.

Most all employers in N America will round file a application once they see the PTF time, if someone makes it to the interview they won't call him back after seeing those hours.

There are no countries where you would want to fly, that honor PTF hours in a interview.

Maybe in Taiwan
 
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Fearless Tower said:
So, other than desperate regionals, who hires seat warmers like that?

Obviously, if a guy shows up for a 135 interview and logbook review, they are going to know he paid to sit there.
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The guys I have seen on this program are Korean so they will take their SIC time and get hired no problem because Korean operators DGAF where the time comes from. I have been told that they get paid by their Airline back home to right seat so they aren't exactly being used for free by AMF.
 
James331 said:
Hired implies they are WORKING pikots, which ain't the case with PTF scum.
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They should fly around single pilot and they should fly the boxes for free too. This way the business (and it is a business) makes no money at all. Life isn't fair but just because someone is willing to PTF doesn't make them scum it just makes them silly to waste money when there is money to be made. They are selling a "training service". Nothing else.
 
NJP_MAN said:
They should fly around single pilot and they should fly the boxes for free too. This way the business (and it is a business) makes no money at all. Life isn't fair but just because someone is willing to PTF doesn't make them scum it just makes them silly to waste money when there is money to be made. They are selling a "training service". Nothing else.
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No.

They are scum, the companies that do it, and the idiots who pay for it, if you consider PTF training you don't understand what training really is. PTF drags the whole industry down, I realize you don't understand that, or even really care, because you're not a pro pilot.

Anyone flying on a revenue generating flight should be GETTING a check in the mail, not WRITING a check.

Yeah, the Asian method of training works great.

image.jpg
 
James331 said:
.

Yeah, the Asian method of training works great.

nfayg002pmage.jpg
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Never said it works great. There is a possibility that the participants don't even know that they are looked down upon if the parent company back home is footing the bill. It doesnt bother me because I'm a pro pilot and I'm logging PIC. Now we should be mad that schools like ERAU and UND suck the financial hell out of students so they qualify for rATP. To me that sounds like a scam. Get a real degree and you're going have to fly 500 more hours than someone else who has a bachelor's in pilot.

Edit: that's is the same as paying for 500 more hours. So in a sense it's PTF except the schools get the cash not the operators of single pilot aircraft.
 
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NJP_MAN said:
Never said it works great. There is a possibility that the participants don't even know that they are looked down upon if the parent company back home is footing the bill. It doesnt bother me because I'm a pro pilot and I'm logging PIC. Now we should be mad that schools like ERAU and UND suck the financial hell out of students so they qualify for rATP. To me that sounds like a scam. Get a real degree and you're going have to fly 500 more hours than someone else who has a bachelor's in pilot.

Edit: that's is the same as paying for 500 more hours. So in a sense it's PTF except the schools get the cash not the operators of single pilot aircraft.
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As a CFI was I clearing 30k.....
 
Sure it does.

I was getting paid logging hours getting towards my ATP and other mins for work.

Clearing 30k playing in poop doesn't help with anything aviation related.


How is this so complicated? Building hours for the ATP, get your CPL, get a job.

Get PAID building professional hours towards your professional goals (ATP etc).
PTF is a joke for chumps.
 
James331 said:
PTF is a joke for chumps.
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So is paying a school 40k/yr so you get to log 500 less FLIGHT hours towards ATP. That is paying for time. So I suppose you have a problem with the rATP pilots flying right seat on RJs too.

They paid for 1+ years of life that I have to fly because I chose to get a real degree.
 
James331 said:
Hired implies they are WORKING pilots, which ain't the case with PTF scum.

Most all employers in N America will round file a application once they see the PTF time, if someone makes it to the interview they won't call him back after seeing those hours.

There are no countries where you would want to fly, that honor PTF hours in a interview.

Maybe in Taiwan
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And again, I'll say it, the only people doing EagleJet are guys that are coming over from Asia with a job lined up at Korean or whatever. So, they don't care what some back woods, fly by night 135 pilot cares of it. And quite frankly, they shouldn't.

Based on the way you keep coming out swinging for the fences, I feel like you lost a job to one of these guys or something.
 
James331 said:
Who paid for my ratings, up to my CPL I did, of course.



After my CPL my EMPLOYERS paid ME for the flight time in my log, that's how real pilots EARN their ATPs.









Hired implies they are WORKING pilots, which ain't the case with PTF scum.



Most all employers in N America will round file a application once they see the PTF time, if someone makes it to the interview they won't call him back after seeing those hours.



There are no countries where you would want to fly, that honor PTF hours in a interview.



Maybe in Taiwan
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Ok, so what if I fly 1500 hours on trips in my own aircraft (that of course I _pay_ for)? Is that time looked down on as well?
 
dans2992 said:
Ok, so what if I fly 1500 hours on trips in my own aircraft (that of course I _pay_ for)? Is that time looked down on as well?
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Valid point. 1475 hours in the traffic pattern with 25 multi hours gets you a job offer over the phone at some regionals.
 
My repair shop is also a major local training center. I would say there are less than 10% of the number of students that there were just a few years ago. The simple math is that an airline career is a bad bet. Sure, if you're one of those people that would be happy on Walmart wages if they could just fly, then none of the detractions will matter. For others it certainly will. I have a really good friend that just left charter work to fly right seat 121 RJ for a truly pitiful wage. He has all the ratings, 6K hours, 4 types, and 10 years in the business. He felt he needed to do it to try to move his career forward. Pretty hard to face those kinds of career prospects.
 
Alexb2000 said:
My repair shop is also a major local training center. I would say there are less than 10% of the number of students that there were just a few years ago. The simple math is that an airline career is a bad bet. Sure, if you're one of those people that would be happy on Walmart wages if they could just fly, then none of the detractions will matter. For others it certainly will. I have a really good friend that just left charter work to fly right seat 121 RJ for a truly pitiful wage. He has all the ratings, 6K hours, 4 types, and 10 years in the business. He felt he needed to do it to try to move his career forward. Pretty hard to face those kinds of career prospects.
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... and I hope to do it for "fun" one day, once I've saved up enough to "semi-retire". Not in the airlines, maybe charter, a part 91 flight department, or "contract pilot".
 
NJP_MAN said:
Valid point. 1475 hours in the traffic pattern with 25 multi hours gets you a job offer over the phone at some regionals.
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Seriously though, is that kind of time (i.e flying your own plane on trips) less valuable for landing a job than CFIing around the local area, or is it about the same?
 
dans2992 said:
... and I hope to do it for "fun" one day, once I've saved up enough to "semi-retire". Not in the airlines, maybe charter, a part 91 flight department, or "contract pilot".
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That may be the way the blanks get filled in. I have a friend that retired as a dentist and now flies as a "retirement" job. He's real happy with it.
 
Alexb2000 said:
That may be the way the blanks get filled in. I have a friend that retired as a dentist and now flies as a "retirement" job. He's real happy with it.
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This is part 121 or 91? That's quite the opportunity cost. One could practice dentistry well into one's 60s and have quite a nice nest egg and the time off to fly pretty cool airplanes on their own dime.
 
dans2992 said:
Seriously though, is that kind of time (i.e flying your own plane on trips) less valuable for landing a job than CFIing around the local area, or is it about the same?
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At the regional level? It's the same.
 
hindsight2020 said:
This is part 121 or 91? That's quite the opportunity cost. One could practice dentistry well into one's 60s and have quite a nice nest egg and the time off to fly pretty cool airplanes on their own dime.
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Pt. 91 and 135. He just got sick of dentistry, made enough money, and wanted a little retirement income and benefits. I can understand it, but I agree the opportunity cost is really high.
 
NJP_MAN said:
Valid point. 1475 hours in the traffic pattern with 25 multi hours gets you a job offer over the phone at some regionals.
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FAIL

Read the requirments of the ATP

Bunches of hours in the pattern won't get you anywhere.
 
James331 said:
FAIL



Read the requirments of the ATP



Bunches of hours in the pattern won't get you anywhere.
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Ok, there's some limited cross country time required, and going to the same airport 51 miles away a few hundred times isn't much more valuable.
 
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