Why would a CFI not declare in this situation?

Clark1961 said:
It wasn't expressed that simply Mark but thanks for the comment taking it to that level. I wish the world was binary and all decisions were that simple.
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They are not. Neither is declaring an emergency as simple as, "I need priority right now so clear everyone else out of the area immediately." Which is the level you seem to have brought it to.

Declaring an emergency is an advisory to ATC you are having a problem which is or may become urgent enough to require priority, special handling, or deviation from rules and instructions. If it's not a "right now!" it at least lets ATC plan for the possibility. It is often followed by, "say intentions," IOW, "what do you want to do and do you need anything?" The answer might well be, nothing at the moment, but I might suddenly need something, so stay with me. It's a heads-up which, exactly opposite to your speculation about multiple emergencies, allows ATC to prioritize.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That makes sense. Unfortunately.
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There is a movie with Anthony Hopkins and Alec Baldwin, forget the title, where they end up crashed in Alaska. Hopkins makes this statement which I think is relevant here and which I think about alot: He says, people in that situation die of shame, they cannot admit to themselves they are in that situation and hence do not take the actions necessary to survive.
 
hankrausch said:
There is a movie with Anthony Hopkins and Alec Baldwin, forget the title, where they end up crashed in Alaska. Hopkins makes this statement which I think is relevant here and which I think about alot: He says, people in that situation die of shame, they cannot admit to themselves they are in that situation and hence do not take the actions necessary to survive.
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In the pilot context there's that but also concern about usually nonexistent FAA repercussions.
 
hankrausch said:
There is a movie with Anthony Hopkins and Alec Baldwin, forget the title, where they end up crashed in Alaska. Hopkins makes this statement which I think is relevant here and which I think about alot: He says, people in that situation die of shame, they cannot admit to themselves they are in that situation and hence do not take the actions necessary to survive.
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Ah, The Edge...great film!


But you forgot the last part - the one thing that they didn't do to save themselves: declaring an emergency!

OK just joking, it was "thinking" :)

While we're at it, best scene:
 
Sinistar said:
Would someone elaborate on the FAA ramifications of actually declaring an emergency - maybe use this case as an example if possible.

Would the CFI be looking at some type of enforcement action if it was ruled to be his fault? Does the plane become grounded and a nightmare to move and fly again? Does a NASA report help in this case? Is the aversion to declare based on some older tactics no longer used by the FAA? If declaring had no ramifications, why wouldnt a CFI of all people declare first and ask questions later. Stigma? Hmm?

Between the possibility of a totally obscured forward view and fire...you'd think you'd want helpful resources as close as possible in case the landing goes south or fire starts while trying to get out.
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None, I have known pilots declared emergencies. FAA comes down a couple of questions, never heard from again. Now if it was a declaration due to something the pilot caused. It might end up differently.

Side note. I do not know the CFI in this video. He is at the same field. I have heard things that can be questionable.
 
Well FWIW I lost my engine at night and deadsticked it in to Charleston SC and never declared. But am pretty sure they knew I needed help by the pitch in my voice. They had crash trucks, blue lights and all. Very pretty.
 
injb said:
Ah, The Edge...great film!


But you forgot the last part - the one thing that they didn't do to save themselves: declaring an emergency!

OK just joking, it was "thinking" :)

While we're at it, best scene:
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Wow! You are good!
 
midlifeflyer said:
Declaring an emergency is an advisory to ATC you are having a problem which is or may become urgent enough to require priority, special handling, or deviation from rules and instructions. If it's not a "right now!" it at least lets ATC plan for the possibility. It is often followed by, "say intentions," IOW, "what do you want to do and do you need anything?" The answer might well be, nothing at the moment, but I might suddenly need something, so stay with me. It's a heads-up which, exactly opposite to your speculation about multiple emergencies, allows ATC to prioritize.
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sounds more like a "pan pan pan" situation to me, but that may be splitting hairs a little fine. ;)
midlifeflyer said:
Sounds imaginary to me. Any real world examples?
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I won't presume to apply this situation to the discussion of this thread, but I can come up with a real-world example of two "emergencies" at the same airport...
https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20161128-0
 
midlifeflyer said:
Declaring an emergency is an advisory to ATC you are having a problem which is or may become urgent enough to require priority, special handling, or deviation from rules and instructions. If it's not a "right now!" it at least lets ATC plan for the possibility. It is often followed by, "say intentions," IOW, "what do you want to do and do you need anything?" The answer might well be, nothing at the moment, but I might suddenly need something, so stay with me. It's a heads-up which, exactly opposite to your speculation about multiple emergencies, allows ATC to prioritize.
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When I controlled Mark, a pilot declaring an emergency was given priority. I don't believe that has changed.
 
I don't believe I would have declared an emergency, because at this point there really isn't one.

However, I would absolutely have let ATC know there was a problem and the nature of the problem. Using the words "precautionary landing" would have gone a long way toward getting on the ground as soon as possible.
 
I had a grease fitting spew grease all over my windshield on takeoff. I turned around and landed with no forward visibility. The airport didnt have a tower and there wasnt anyone else in the pattern. No sense in declaring an emergency that I could see. I just landed by looking out the side window.

BTW, grease zerks backfiring grease out is not a reason to rebuild the prop. Dont refill it. Wipe up the grease and replace the zerk and you are good to go. I know that sounds weird and some will disagree. But its true. Sometimes those zerks go bezerk and do that. They aren't supposed to. Always seems to happen when its hot. The prop shop rebuild guy will take your money, but they never seem to find anything wrong other than replacing the zerk. Prop shop guy told me that. YMMV. Weird burping zerk.

Now spewing oil is a different deal. A seal or something needs to be repaired.
 
It almost didn't seem like he knew how big of a deal that may have been, when the tower can see you trailing oil as you're turning base....dude....

Personally I would have declared and b lined it for the numbers
 
I would have declared. CFR needs to earn thier pay. They can sit around all day with nothing to do.

Seriously in this situation. I would have declared. Just because I see what he calls a little oil, no one knows what is happening underneath. And knowing this airport, they extend downwind on a regular basis on 6 or 7 Miles.
 
Clark1961 said:
I was happy as long as the oil pressure gauge was steady. If it had wavered I would have declared with words like "landing now". At an uncontrolled field after a mag failure I said "emergency inbound, get out of my way, mag failure"
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That's what I did when I ran out of gas (stupid).
 
The ICAO definition of "urgency" is

A condition concerning the
safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of person on
board or in sight, but which does not require
immediate assistance.
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I really think that applies here even if you think he didn't require immediate assistance.
 
And wtf is going on with that PCAS wrapped in tape and what looks like an AC extension cord??
 
I try to avoid getting sucked into stupid discussions but anyone who thinks this guy shouldn't have declared is an idiot. A dangerous one at that.

You can't know how much worse the oil on the windscreen is going to get.

In this case the oil is spewing on the windscreen right in front of the CFI. The time he wasted screwing around in the pattern could have been the time he lost all forward visibility. He then may have had a panicked newbie on his hands as well.

And, as has already been pointed out, the CFI couldn't have known what oil may have been pouring out the bottom of the engine.

Seriously, if you think this CFI shouldn't have declared, you are a danger to anyone who flies with you.

Why do stupid people continue to think that the FAA is somehow going to penalize them for declaring??? What the **** is the downside? There friggen isn't one! None! No penalties, no 709's, no going to bed without dinner, NONE.

Get help, get it now, and decide when your on the ground how serious it was.

Don't even bother arguing with me because I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

Going to take my Geritol and watch Andy Griffith....
 
So much fail in that video it needs to be taken down. Oil everywhere and he doesnt think there is a need for declaring and ATC has to ask him why his plane has a vapor trail. Then he just sits there with engine running so theres a really good chance you could either 1 totally ruin the engine or 2 catch on fire. What a pedantic idiot "you dont want to continue flight with oil on your windscreen because you might run out" thanks Captain obvious. "I saw it when it first started" Umm no he didn't you could see the film low on windscreen before takeoff. He emphasized doing control check for 2 min because of a accident with reverse rigged controls but didn't show him how to verify ailerons were correct with the thumbs method.
I had no idea this level of ignorance existed in GA. SCARY!
 
Reminds me of a funny story. Happened at Santa Barbara. Plane calls the Tower, says his oil cap came off, has oil on the wind shield and he can't see to well. Controller tells the supervisor we got an emergency, I don't know if the pilot actually said emergency. Supervisor goes to to the Crash Phone. Background on how the Crash Phone works. It goes to to two places, Airport Managers office and the Fire House. No dial, you just pick it up and talk. That is hot to loudspeakers in the office and the house. You pick it up and say either Alert one or Alert two. One is someone has a problem and may crash, the other is someone has crashed. Then ya start saying what is going on. Some one at each place eventually picks up the phone and you give more detail. So the supervisor picks up the phone and screams "my god he can't see."
 
mscard88 said:
When I controlled Mark, a pilot declaring an emergency was given priority. I don't believe that has changed.
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Of course you did. That has not changed. But didn't you ask what the pilot wanted? What assistance the pilot needed? What the pilot wanted to do? That's what I was asked the two times I declared, and my point in saying the "conflicting priorities" rationale for not declaring is tenuous at best. Would you prefer the pilot in the story stay mum until the very last second?
 
When I used to race cars and the wreckers were sent for me, I always met each person, shook their hand and thanked them for coming out. If I was conscious.

I do the same thing at the airport.

And I declare because sometimes the budget is determined by the number of callouts that emergency crews get in one year.
 
Zeldman said:
When I used to race cars and the wreckers were sent for me, I always met each person, shook their hand and thanked them for coming out. If I was conscious.

I do the same thing at the airport.

And I declare because sometimes the budget is determined by the number of callouts that emergency crews get in one year.
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Hmm. How many of the crash crew are pilots.........Dang, that's got me feeling guilty for not having emergencies
 
WannFly said:
Intro flight for the student, wind screen getting covered in oil, CFI didnt declare. start at 25:42
27:33 when the CFI first notices, i think it started before that, hard to see with the sun


Why on earth would you do something like that? what messege is being sent to the student (who i hope continued to become a pilot, donno).
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I completely agree. While I hate the idea of crying wolf, that amount of oil indicated was a serious problem and an emergency should have been declared early on. As soon as you are aware there is a major oil leak... declare an emergency. You don't screw around with courtesy. Declare, and get on the ground.
 
That engine could have quit at any moment, Odin only knows what was going on! And a Cherokee sans engine has the glide ratio of a Mac truck. That could have easily turned into catastrophe. Were it me it would have gone like this: Mayday, Mayday, Mayday! We have a major malfunction and are returning to the airport to land on the nearest runway RIGHT NOW!

I'll bet the CFI wasn't a mechanic and had no clue what was going on. Yeah, it turned out OK, but it didn't have to.
 
Ok, I just watched the video. First, that CFI would drive me bonkers. At least the oil leak shut him up. And why did it have to take half an hourto get in the air after start up? What a miserable intro flight.

More importantly, I thought it was significant that he was *behaving* as though there was an emergency! He did an immediate 180 and asked for a landing clearance. Then he flew to where he wantedto be, right through final with other traffic, like he owned the sky. He absolutely positively should have declared, and his actions demonstrate that! He did need/want special handling, he was just behaving as though he'd gotten it without asking. He didn't even have to say the word "emergency" if he didn't want to freak out the student. He could have just said "Cherokee had oil on the windshield and would like an immediate return." That probably would have gotten him down before he couldn't see.

And was he never planning to tell the tower that he was about to foul the runway will oil? Brilliant.

For once I'll say I hope the FAA watches that.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
Of course you did. That has not changed. But didn't you ask what the pilot wanted? What assistance the pilot needed? What the pilot wanted to do? That's what I was asked the two times I declared, and my point in saying the "conflicting priorities" rationale for not declaring is tenuous at best. Would you prefer the pilot in the story stay mum until the very last second?
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The way you worded it, may plan for priority, is what I was referring to. An emergency is given priority, and as soon as one says they are declaring.

We're probably saying and meaning the same, you're using that lawyer talk while I'm coming from the controller angle. ;)
 
Lndwarrior said:
Seriously, if you think this CFI shouldn't have declared, you are a danger to anyone who flies with you.
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I think I wasn't there, I don't know this guy, and I wasn't giving a ride to a prospective student and therefore I will not make a decision based on this one video about whether or not the CFI is a danger to everyone who flies with him. It's not clear to me that he would have gotten down any faster by declaring, but his passengers would have had all his friends saying "you had an emergency? Wow, it's lucky you didn't die, you'd be crazy to learn to fly".

I believe the instructor was probably trying to play it cool so as to not alarm his passenger and avoid scaring him away from aviation. My personal opinion is that it would have been more impressive to say "see how competent we are, this is how you'll get to be too, able to handle anything". That means declaring an emergency, but acting normal anyway.
 
bflynn said:
I think I wasn't there, I don't know this guy, and I wasn't giving a ride to a prospective student and therefore I will not make a decision based on this one video about whether or not the CFI is a danger to everyone who flies with him. It's not clear to me that he would have gotten down any faster by declaring, but his passengers would have had all his friends saying "you had an emergency? Wow, it's lucky you didn't die, you'd be crazy to learn to fly".

I believe the instructor was probably trying to play it cool so as to not alarm his passenger and avoid scaring him away from aviation. My personal opinion is that it would have been more impressive to say "see how competent we are, this is how you'll get to be too, able to handle anything". That means declaring an emergency, but acting normal anyway.
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What about the part where he flew through traffic on final? In an emergency, you can do what you need to do. If you communicate, ATC can get everyone else out of your way. I skipped around, but it looked like he was upwind off the airport when he 180'd. If he'd declared, they would have given him straight in.
 
Lindberg said:
What about the part where he flew through traffic on final? In an emergency, you can do what you need to do. If you communicate, ATC can get everyone else out of your way. I skipped around, but it looked like he was upwind off the airport when he 180'd. If he'd declared, they would have given him straight in.
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I don't know, what about it? He made the decision not to declare much earlier. I've already said that I think it was a mistake, not knowing left from right is a pretty clear indication that he was overloaded.

I'm not sure with that wind that he would have gone straight in, but he would have had the option. Winds were 260@16G20, I wouldn't choose to land on 14 in that situation. If you can make it to the downwind then you can land if the engine quits and I don't think you lose anything by trying to fly to the downwind.

It's obvious to me that he didn't think it was a big thing and didn't want to alarm his potential student.
 
Pretty sure I would have declared - I'm kind of "spring-loaded" to do so. But its still easy to hesitate if you think the situation is pretty much under control. Until its not!

I recall 3 declarations over the years, never with any repercussions or paperwork:


Grumman with a strong burning rubber smell. Turned out to be a seized alternator and the belt melting.

Grumman with a seized exhaust valve, leading to very rough running and loss of power.

My Sky Arrow with very rough running. Likely some gasket goop getting sucked into the main jet.
 
FastEddieB said:
Grumman with a strong burning rubber smell. Turned out to be a seized alternator and the belt melting.

Grumman with a seized exhaust valve, leading to very rough running and loss of power.

My Sky Arrow with very rough running. Likely some gasket goop getting sucked into the main jet.
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@SixPapaCharlie that's 2 out of 3 right thar! :D
 
MeatloafSM-300x210.jpg
 
Lindberg said:
Ok, I just watched the video. First, that CFI would drive me bonkers. At least the oil leak shut him up. And why did it have to take half an hourto get in the air after start up? What a miserable intro flight.
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Glad someone else agrees.... besides the fact that he should have declared, what is with yelling on takeoff, and the total cockiness during this whole event. Confidence is ok, the cockiness is not. This guy sells PPL training videos too... I am sorry for his students.
 
I can't imagine not declaring for fear of an FAA blowback. I'd be a bit more afraid of fiery death. Getting crispy crittered trumps FAA enforcement in the book of Steingar.
 
Can also say for myself that not declaring or at least issuing the Pan Pan is teaching the prospective student in the left seat the wrong behavior from literally day one in this case.

If I were that CFI i would at least sit down afterward and explain how overload and a concern to not scare a brand new person into maybe doing something rash in the cockpit clouded my judgement and that if the new student EVER had a problem, “Do as I say, not as I did. It was a mistake. Declare and land. I showed you the wrong way to handle an emergency.”

Primacy and all that. I don’t know any old non-bold pilots with LOTS of hours who won’t just declare and start the help process, even if they turn out not to need it.

When you see folks who brag about not declaring, you can almost always tie that straight to other hazardous attitudes you see in them.

The non-braggarts who didn’t declare usually fall into two categories. Those who later say it was a mistake not to declare and they just didn’t think about it or were busy, or the kinda clueless who don’t realize they really should have. Sometimes after twenty tellings of the story, the clueless type end up switching to the bragging type. And then someone who cares enough has to privately tell them, “Stop bragging about that. It’s stupid.” :)
 
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