Why would a CFI not declare in this situation?

[eman1200]

You guys are all overreacting.....the dude had AoA, no problems.

 

[danhagan]

When I was in a similar situation I just told the tower I had oil on the windscreen and was going to be downwind for landing. The tower did ask if I needed priority.

Always a good idea to have a non-pilot controller trying to figure out if you're in distress. Great work there Clark.

Ok but why not declare? U get priority handling and all attention from ATC. At that point in flight you don’t know how much oil is in the sump, how much is outside and what else is happening under the cowling.

Yeah, and I'm POSITIVE the exhaust manifold is cool enough NOT to start an oil fire

I think this is bad ADM and missing a good teaching moment got student. This was an emergency. Period.

Totally agree.

Not sure why all these Yeagers want to avoid declaring, forcing ATC to do it for them. Remember, most are NOT pilots.

 

[Clark1961]

Always a good idea to have a non-pilot controller trying to figure out if you're in distress. Great work there Clark.

LOL. If I'm in distress I will tell them. If a controller wants to pretend they are on POA and play guessing games while making bad assumptions then that is their problem.
OTOH, it was great work. I didn't disrupt traffic, landed normally and taxied to my hangar. Second guess all you want but it is just guessing on your part.

 

[FastEddieB]

If I were that CFI i would at least sit down afterward and explain how overload and a concern to not scare a brand new person into maybe doing something rash in the cockpit clouded my judgement and that if the new student EVER had a problem, “Do as I say, not as I did. It was a mistake. Declare and land. I showed you the wrong way to handle an emergency.”

Very well put.

 

[Lindberg]

I'm not sure with that wind that he would have gone straight in, but he would have had the option. Winds were 260@16G20, I wouldn't choose to land on 14 in that situation. If you can make it to the downwind then you can land if the engine quits and I don't think you lose anything by trying to fly to the downwind.

If he was cutting off planes on final, he was on the approach side of the airport, right? I didn't pay very close attention to his position. They had already done some turns when he did a 180 toward the runway and asked for a landing clearance. When Tower asked, "Did you just do a 180?" his answer should have been, "Yes, we have an oil leak obscuring the windshield and are returning to land."

I don't care if you're on downwind, upwind, or base, if you wait until you can't see out, your chances of success go down.

 

[mscard88]

your chances of success go down.

 

[F01LA]

Unrelated to the oil issue, but I'm really confused about tower's pattern entry instruction. The aircraft takes off on runway 32, then uses a right downwind departure. At this point they're southeast of the airport several miles. They make a 180 and are heading for the runway, then tower instructs them to make another 180 and enter the right downwind for 32. Is he wanting him to turn to heading 140 on an extended downwind? He's more in position for a base entry at that point.

Of course if you watch the video, the instructor gets confused and tries to enter a left downwind, crossing final approach path, and has close traffic which he probably can't see out the windscreen. All he had to do was declare and he could have landed straight in. Safer for everyone.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Why doesnt a pilot want to declare an emergency?
He doesn't want to make it any more exciting than it already is.
and
If it doesnt get you anything extra, why declare? Its not like ATC can come up there and fix your problem.
If you need to sure, declare.

If you do declare, write ATC a thank you letter. They dig that.
That's called making lemonade out of a lemon.

 

[F01LA]

Why doesnt a pilot want to declare an emergency?
He doesn't want to make it any more exciting than it already is.
and
If it doesnt get you anything extra, why declare? Its not like ATC can come up there and fix your problem.
If you need to sure, declare.

It does get you something extra. In this case, it would have gotten him a straight-in instead of mucking around the pattern and nearly causing conflicts like he did. Declaring helps you concentrate on the issue at hand.

 

[Clip4]

Ok but why not declare? U get priority handling and all attention from ATC. At that point in flight you don’t know how much oil is in the sump, how much is outside and what else is happening under the cowling.


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Confessed?

“Tower, 123AB returning to the field with an engine problem - venting oil”. The tower would have expedited his landing without all the drama.

 

[mscard88]

OK, finally got around to watching. Yeah oil pressure ok, but I personally would have declared and most likely shut down on the taxiway after landing. Especially with a student onboard. Tower declared for them that's why the emergency vehicle was out there.

 

[danhagan]

LOL. If I'm in distress I will tell them. If a controller wants to pretend they are on POA and play guessing games while making bad assumptions then that is their problem.
OTOH, it was great work. I didn't disrupt traffic, landed normally and taxied to my hangar. Second guess all you want but it is just guessing on your part.

Not second guessing Clark. I'm in the medical field and I equate loss of oil and blood the same, except blood can't catch fire. Yes, you have to fly the plane, but if you know that you just got assigned #1 to land no matter your position, why wouldn't you declare and take it? Landing approved any runway is also nice to hear.

Why doesnt a pilot want to declare an emergency?
He doesn't want to make it any more exciting than it already is.

Well, that's hopeful wishing. Here's to "hoping" that pilot is 100% correct in his diagnosis of what is occurring from behind the panel ... I mean, heck, it's only your life ... go ahead and join the downwind #3 to land behind SWA, caution wake turbulence also

If it doesnt get you anything extra, why declare? Its not like ATC can come up there and fix your problem. If you need to sure, declare.

Again, see above ... hopefully you hear #1 to land any runway.

OK, finally got around to watching. Yeah oil pressure ok, but I personally would have declared and most likely shut down on the taxiway after landing. Especially with a student onboard. Tower declared for them that's why the emergency vehicle was out there.

I hope I never have tower have to declare for me ... to me that equals massive screw-up forcing someone else to guess what's going on with the aircraft. Not sure why all the Yeagers around here are having a problem declaring, that's what it is there for ... I guess it's better for them to clam up, wait for something nasty to escalate and stall spin because they attempted a full pattern rather expediting a landing.

 

[denverpilot]

I hope I never have tower have to declare for me ... to me that equals massive screw-up forcing someone else to guess what's going on with the aircraft.

No. You may be too busy dealing with the problem to talk, or they may see heavy smoke coming off the aircraft, or any number of other reasons they’ll declare for you before you get around to doing it.

 

[Clark1961]

Not second guessing Clark. I'm in the medical field and I equate loss of oil and blood the same, except blood can't catch fire. Yes, you have to fly the plane, but if you know that you just got assigned #1 to land no matter your position, why wouldn't you declare and take it? Landing approved any runway is also nice to hear.

Yes, you are guessing. Stop denying. Your comment about cleared to land #3 behind SWA demonstrates that you are guessing and making things up.

Furthermore, using your own, albeit dubious,comparison, a minor razor cut does not require a trip to the emergency room. Tell ya what, I'll be PIC of my aircraft and you go do whatever you want.

 

[Leo]

Ok but why not declare? U get priority handling and all attention from ATC. At that point in flight you don’t know how much oil is in the sump, how much is outside and what else is happening under the cowling.


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I’m agree with you! And yes for me I declare an emergency.

 

[Leo]

I think this is bad ADM and missing a good teaching moment got student. This was an emergency. Period. Maybe it was oil cap maybe it wasn't. PIC didn't know. The only responsible action in my mind would have been to inform tower of problem. Whether you use the word emergency, mayday or plain English to let them know the problem, it doesn't matter. You need to go straight to runway with no delay. You MUST communicate this to tower.

Give me one good reason not to declare (prospectively, not retrospectively). Just because it worked out okay, does not mean you did the right thing. I've done a lot of boneheaded things that it worked out just fine.

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Yessssss I’m agree!

 

[danhagan]

Yes, you are guessing. Stop denying. Your comment about cleared to land #3 behind SWA demonstrates that you are guessing and making things up.

What's there to guess? You had a windscreen full of oil. Case closed. Hell, fly out to the practice area for all I care for a few maneuvers if you want ....

Furthermore, using your own, albeit dubious,comparison, a minor razor cut does not require a trip to the emergency room.

After you have more experience you'll understand ... your "razor cut" analogy is hilarious ... how that applies to oil on the windscreen is quite the leap.

Tell ya what, I'll be PIC of my aircraft and you go do whatever you want.

Whoa Clark ... trouble discussing things much? This is a forum. You admitted to not declaring with an obvious situation. I pointed out the benefits of declaring whether you think you needed it or not. Take a tower tour sometime, paint the same scenario and ask what they might do to help.

 

[Clark1961]

What's there to guess? You had a windscreen full of oil. Case closed. Hell, fly out to the practice area for all I care for a few maneuvers if you want ....



After you have more experience you'll understand ... your "razor cut" analogy is hilarious ... how that applies to oil on the windscreen is quite the leap.



Whoa Clark ... trouble discussing things much? This is a forum. You admitted to not declaring with an obvious situation. I pointed out the benefits of declaring whether you think you needed it or not. Take a tower tour sometime, paint the same scenario and ask what they might do to help.

Dan, I discuss just fine. When folks like you make up stuff and get snarky then I shoot back. Don’t like it? Tough.

You have made up stuff. Oil on the windscreen magically became a windscreen full of oil. Previously I somehow became #3 to land behind a 737. In short it is apparent you want to attack and belittle me. Do what you want but I will call you out on your bad behavior.
HTH and HAND

 

[BigBadLou]

I agree with the overall sentiment here: the CFI needs to learn how to join the traffic pattern, how to talk on the radio concisely, how to declare an emergency if there is one and mainly how to be much much less obnoxious. (I know, I know, takes one to know one, guilty as charged )

So yes, oil coming out of the engine equals an emergency for me since I can only see what's going onto the windscreen, I cannot see how much I am losing under the belly. And ATC saying "you're trailing smoke"? Yes, I would have declared emergency for one sole reason: to get on the ground as fast as possible. (the CFI actually did .... get on the ground fast .... did you see his airspeed on landing? ) If ATC says "do a few 180s and join right left and middle downwind, you're #2", my reply would be "unable, engine might quit any second, I AM LANDING, get everybody out".
If I heard somebody on the radio call "I am losing oil, I need to land" and I was in the way, I would NOT mind at all to get out of the way. That dude has bigger problems, I ain't gonna whine about a go-around, I am not an azz. (contrary to popular belief)

 

[Sundancer]

In the DC SFRA a few years back - pilot said he had a rough runner, and was diverting into ANP; Potomac begin the 20 question interrogation, got no response; started in again, and the pilot came back with "Hush - I'm busy". . .

All credit to the controller, as he did shut up. Absent a request for a vector, or a call to the local fire department, wasn't really much ATC was going to do in that situation. Have a problem, then jst fly, tell 'em what you're doing as time permits, ignore the rest of the chatter.

 

[danhagan]

Dan, I discuss just fine. When folks like you make up stuff and get snarky then I shoot back. Don’t like it? Tough.

Not getting snarky Clark, but if a student or low time pilot is reading your messages, it'd be nice that they know what is available to them. All "non-normal" equipment operations should be handled as a "potential" emergency, until proven otherwise .... and otherwise often occurs on the ground after engine shutdown.

You have made up stuff. Oil on the windscreen magically became a windscreen full of oil. Previously I somehow became #3 to land behind a 737. In short it is apparent you want to attack and belittle me. Do what you want but I will call you out on your bad behavior.
HTH and HAND

CFI locally got oil on the windscreen, and it was minimal ... the streak down the side of the airplane after landing was another story. Not attacking you Clark, was hoping you'd get a sense of what "might" constitute a problem that is about to or could escalate. You're PIC and you have the responsibility as you indicated earlier. All of the other "#3" stuff above was to enlighten that you may not be #1 to the runway, but if you declared you would be. Not a terribly difficult concept.

 

[frfly172]

The pilot made a successful landing. In his mind he did the right thing. It really doesn’t matter what others think,arm chair pilots are plentiful.

 

[Clark1961]

Not getting snarky Clark, but if a student or low time pilot is reading your messages, it'd be nice that they know what is available to them. All "non-normal" equipment operations should be handled as a "potential" emergency, until proven otherwise .... and otherwise often occurs on the ground after engine shutdown.



CFI locally got oil on the windscreen, and it was minimal ... the streak down the side of the airplane after landing was another story. Not attacking you Clark, was hoping you'd get a sense of what "might" constitute a problem that is about to or could escalate. You're PIC and you have the responsibility as you indicated earlier. All of the other "#3" stuff above was to enlighten that you may not be #1 to the runway, but if you declared you would be. Not a terribly difficult concept.

You were quite snarky with your comments. Then you followed that with further exaggerations and guesses. Those are unacceptable behaviors when cast in a negative light. You can 'hope' all you like but a lie can never be made into a truth.

 

[jayhawk74]

Why doesnt a pilot want to declare an emergency?
If it doesnt get you anything extra, why declare? Its not like ATC can come up there and fix your problem.

In addition to guaranteeing that you get priority handling by you do declareing an emergency the PIC can violate any FAR that he needs to in order to safely deal with the emergency.

 

[danhagan]

You were quite snarky with your comments. Then you followed that with further exaggerations and guesses. Those are unacceptable behaviors when cast in a negative light. You can 'hope' all you like but a lie can never be made into a truth.

Geez Clark. Can't take someone pointing out options? You were the one that provided your story about oil on the windscreen and how great a pilot you were landing without declaring or taking the "#1 to land clear any runway" option, running the full pattern. Great, glad that worked out for you. Your decision processes are questionable in my book, but thankfully, I don't have to be a passenger with you.

In addition to guaranteeing that you get priority handling by you do declareing an emergency the PIC can violate any FAR that he needs to in order to safely deal with the emergency.

Clark will be along to disagree shortly ... and claim you're "snarky" for attempting to enlighten.

 

[denverpilot]

The pilot made a successful landing. In his mind he did the right thing. It really doesn’t matter what others think,arm chair pilots are plentiful.

So if a pilot flies drunk and makes a successful landing and thinks they did the right thing, then it’s all good? LOL.

Just using hyperbole to point out that what I think about my flying or you think about your flying is NOT necessarily the standard for anything. And even a “successful outcome” doesn’t actually mean anyone did it right. It’s certainly better than the alternative, but there’s all sorts of things that can be done wrong that can have a successful outcome.

In addition to guaranteeing that you get priority handling by you do declareing an emergency the PIC can violate any FAR that he needs to in order to safely deal with the emergency.

Also not true. Pilots have been cited for violation of regs during declared emergencies. It’s not a “Get out of jail free” card if the thing that was done had nothing to do with the emergency. Many pilots have received remedial training as penance or in severe cases 709 rides for their behavior during emergencies. Especially if their poor airmanship somehow led to the emergency.

FAA tiptoes on that line. They don’t want people not to declare who should, but if you decide to launch into a 200’ overcast as a non-Instrument rated pilot in an airplane not airworthy for IFR, declare an emergency and manage to survive that, you’re getting violated and probably a 709 ride to retain your ticket.

This scenario is nothing like that, but I wanted to make it clear that the “you can do anything you want if you declare an emergency” poppycock was addressed. No. You can’t.

 

[dmspilot]

by declareing an emergency the PIC can violate any FAR that he needs to in order to safely deal with the emergency.

No, 91.3(b) says nothing about "declaring" an emergency. If an emergency exists, the rule applies. If an emergency does not exist, the rule does not apply. The whole "If you declare an emergency, then you can violate the regs" is a total misconception.