Why the GPS hate?

[Captain]

Mick,

I'll take a shot at directly answering your question.

I think it's partially because many of us do not have or have access to a GPS equipped airplane. I voted that I would love to have a GPS, if I could. So, we hang onto the conventional navs and make like we're better than those GPS dudes.

It also doesn't help that many folks who have GPS seemed to espouse the "it's time we ditched all those obsolete VORs" slogan. What this says to us "nobodys" is that they don't care if we all get grounded. Not intended that way, of course, but that's what would happen. Kind of like the have's forgetting about the have not's.

So, in defense, we bash GPS, glass, etc.

Having said that, I do fly a Garmin 430 a/c regularly (for a small-time commercial gig) and have learned to use it pretty well. And I really, really, wish I could afford one. I have flown with someone who flies a G1000-equipped a/c and have played with it. I'm was like a grimy-faced poor kid looking at a castle. But I'm struggling and praying to just keep my old Narcos going; let along being able to afford to plunk down tens of thousand of $$ for any GPS.

So, I have learned not to bash GPS users and the magenta line and all that. But I am frustrated at people who push GPS in my face and tell me they have no use for VORs and don't care if they go away. I just wish that we can all get along and understand that we all need all the navaids we can get so that all of us can keep flying. I think that's the best win for all of us.

I don't recall anybody calling for the decommissioning of all the VORs. Besides, even if they did how would that 'ground' you? You have the ability to get GPS, the cost isn't that great AND plenty of planes fly without GPS.

I wouldn't lose sleep if they killed all the VORs but it doesn't bother me that they exist either.

 

[steingar]

I fly with GPS all the time, and have two backups in case the thing breaks. Also carry charts.

 

[WhiskeyPapa]

I'm a low time guy but, frankly, the GPS scares me a little. Not because I don't know how to use it, but because it makes navigation SO EASY that it's tempting to use it as your only source. Like the devil on your shoulder saying follow me, follow me.

The plane I trained in (and now rent) has a GPS and it was never turned on until after I had my license. Since getting my license, the GPS is a powerful force that makes me want slack off in flight planning and situational awareness. I force myself to use VORs, ded reckoning, and landmarks, but that GPS is always on and reassuring me I'm not lost. Having written this, I think I'll leave the GPS off on my next couple of cross countries.

totally agree with this post. i simply lost my 696 for a while which forced me to fly without it. the magenta line annoys me in a way, makes me less precise. I can keep a heading perfectly well without it, and I like watching the landscape as it goes by.
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[Henning]

I'm a low time guy but, frankly, the GPS scares me a little. Not because I don't know how to use it, but because it makes navigation SO EASY that it's tempting to use it as your only source. Like the devil on your shoulder saying follow me, follow me.

The plane I trained in (and now rent) has a GPS and it was never turned on until after I had my license. Since getting my license, the GPS is a powerful force that makes me want slack off in flight planning and situational awareness. I force myself to use VORs, ded reckoning, and landmarks, but that GPS is always on and reassuring me I'm not lost. Having written this, I think I'll leave the GPS off on my next couple of cross countries.

Well, to be more accurate, GPS doesn't make it any easier, GPS merely derives a position based on a set of satellites. Moving map technology is what makes navigation easier, and in reality, we could link moving map technology to anything from VORs(The old KLN-80 was a VOR based R-Nav system that would derive a position) to Inertial Nav Systems.

 

[MAKG1]

I don't recall anybody calling for the decommissioning of all the VORs. Besides, even if they did how would that 'ground' you? You have the ability to get GPS, the cost isn't that great AND plenty of planes fly without GPS.

I wouldn't lose sleep if they killed all the VORs but it doesn't bother me that they exist either.

The FAA did at one point. Of course it takes them 20 years to blow their nose and people assume it meant "immediately." ATC "modernization" has been in development under multiple names since the 80s…and that's typical.

But then they came to their senses and figured out that keeping only a single navigation method for instrument flight around was vulnerable to outages, both accidental and deliberate. For that reason, VORs will never go completely away as a method for long-distance navigation, until replaced with something else separate from GNSS.

 

[Bob Noel]

I'm the one guy that doesn't have GPS and has no desire to get it.

But, I don't hate GPS. Just don't need it. Would rather spend the $$$ on gas and maintaining the aircraft.

 

[timwinters]

I'm a low time guy but, frankly, the GPS scares me a little. Not because I don't know how to use it, but because it makes navigation SO EASY that it's tempting to use it as your only source. Like the devil on your shoulder saying follow me, follow me.

The plane I trained in (and now rent) has a GPS and it was never turned on until after I had my license. Since getting my license, the GPS is a powerful force that makes me want slack off in flight planning and situational awareness. I force myself to use VORs, ded reckoning, and landmarks, but that GPS is always on and reassuring me I'm not lost. Having written this, I think I'll leave the GPS off on my next couple of cross countries.

I'm not a low time guy, John, but I still love shutting everything down (except my brain) and just flying. Yesterday a buddy and I flew about 400nm on a PnP trip and the only thing we turned on was our transponder and the MAC1700. And the MAC was never tuned to a VOR.

Oh, we had a paper chart and our brains turned on too.

The iPad was in my flight bag and the Garmin IFR gps was in the panel. Both remained off.

It's the best way to fly on a VFR day when you're not bumping up against crowded/restricted airspace.

 

[FastEddieB]

Oh gawd, here we go again....but if this helps kill the tail wheel thread, I'm all for it!

You're not a real pilot unless you fly a tailwheel plane with nothing but pilotage and dead reckoning.

GPS is for nosedragging wusses.

 

[noobJohn]

Depends. If you're flying to an airport that doesn't have a VOR, then GPS makes a direct route easier. The GPS in question is a Garmin 150XL. "Moving map" was something the marketing guys used to describe it; it's a bit like trying to surf the web on a flip phone.

Well, to be more accurate, GPS doesn't make it any easier, GPS merely derives a position based on a set of satellites. Moving map technology is what makes navigation easier, and in reality, we could link moving map technology to anything from VORs(The old KLN-80 was a VOR based R-Nav system that would derive a position) to Inertial Nav Systems.

 

[dell30rb]

I hate spending money.

I hate ADS-B.

Why.. its free!

 

[dell30rb]

I don't hate GPS, best fuel saving tool outside the red handle.

Exactly. I always tell myself that one of these days i'm going to take a really long trip using only DR and pilotage, but it never happens. Always being on course and knowing exact ground speed (to play altitude v headwinds/tailwinds) saves a lot of fuel.

I still make short trips without GPS though. I can't wait for summer, it has been months since I have taken the cub and followed the power lines to the Pik-N-Pig 5NC3

 

[Shepherd]

You should have included "I have GPS and don't mind using it." I still fly VOR and ADF, because it's fun.
That being said. There is a GPS in the plane, I have a Nexus with Garmin Pilot, and for long trips I throw an automobile GPS set for "Pedestrian, shortest route", with dozens of airport addresses programmed in.
A year ago, Jan 2, I had a total electronics failure in the plane. It got so cold in the plane, (-37F) everything stopped working. I ended up flying the Garmin Nuvi home. It was buried in the bottom of my bag and still warm enough to function.

 

[Ark235B]

The last cross country I was on we had 4 separate GPS units running. It was a VFR flight and we didn't get lost.

 

[VA Aviator]

Had this conversation with a CFI about 10 years ago, before "children of the magenta" was a thing, but the old fuddy duddies were complaining about all that newfangled hardware (even though it was about 10 years old)

Basically, this guy's response to the "in my day" commentary was that "their day" they didn't have TFRs, or at that point, the ADIZ, and airspace was generally less complex. Seriously - I dug out some of my dad's old charts from the 70s. Two things struck me - there were a lot more airports, and a lot less "airspace".

Seems like a solid argument to me.

 

[RogerT]

Grumpy old men like to beat their chests in superiority for having done it the hard way. Fact is, if GPS had come along 30 years earlier they too would be "children of the magenta (well, maybe black and white) line". I hate that phrase, btw.

Gee .. I learned back in the 70s the "old" way .. compass and clock .. ADF .. VORs. I was sure happy to put IFR GPS's in two of my planes starting back in the late 90s. Made things a lot easier .. after I figured out how to work them.

RT

 

[poadeleted21]

Gee .. I learned back in the 70s the "old" way .. compass and clock .. ADF .. VORs. I was sure happy to put IFR GPS's in two of my planes starting back in the late 90s. Made things a lot easier .. after I figured out how to work them.

RT

Actually, that's the current way.

 

[poadeleted21]

Why.. its free!

Wait till the mandate and we'll see how free it is.

 

[Palmpilot]

The situation in which I have heard the phrase "children of the magenta line" used most often is where someone didn't bother to draw a line on a chart or otherwise find out whether their altitude would work for the planned route.

 

[Everskyward]

The situation in which I have heard the phrase "children of the magenta line" used most often is where someone didn't bother to draw a line on a chart or otherwise find out whether their altitude would work for the planned route.

Originally "children of the magenta" was a video of an airline training lecture where the instructor was saying that there's a time to be programming the FMS and a time to be looking outside. Of course this might also cause you to land at the wrong airport...

 

[Fearless Tower]

Had this conversation with a CFI about 10 years ago, before "children of the magenta" was a thing

Children of the Magenta has been 'a thing' since 1997.

 

[MAKG1]

Where the term came from was a training talk by a major airline -- I think it was AAL -- and he meant using an excessive amount of automation to do things that were a lot easier manually or with lower levels of automation.

Like reprogramming the FMS to avoid traffic, rather than just disengage the autopilot and turn to the new heading now.

"The magenta" doesn't refer to a GPS moving map. It refers to the heading bug. The issue is similar, but it's not identical.

There are a number of cautionary tales about excessive automation. My own favorite is China Airlines 006, but that has nothing to do with GPS.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Where the term came from was a training talk by a major airline -- I think it was AAL -- and he meant using an excessive amount of automation to do things that were a lot easier manually or with lower levels of automation.

Like reprogramming the FMS to avoid traffic, rather than just disengage the autopilot and turn to the new heading now.

"The magenta" doesn't refer to a GPS moving map. It refers to the heading bug. The issue is similar, but it's not identical.

.

Why disengage an autopilot to turn to a heading?

The "magenta line" refers to the course line on the ND.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Where the term came from was a training talk by a major airline -- I think it was AAL -- and he meant using an excessive amount of automation to do things that were a lot easier manually or with lower levels of automation.

Correct. Unfortunate thing is that the presentation can be difficult to get ahold of - AMR's legal department has been ruthlessly going after anyone who posts it over copyright infringement.

 

[ActiveAir]

I have an Aspen, 530W & a 696, along with my tablet and phone with Garmin Pilot. I'm a total bonehead if I ever get lost. I do however, still like practicing with just the VOR navs and I enjoy looking out of the windows regularly.

I practice various different methods when flying approaches for IFR currency. I'm a big believer in always having options.

Well, why you flying then? Walk.

LMAO. Best post of the thread for this discussion.

 

[Everskyward]

Correct. Unfortunate thing is that the presentation can be difficult to get ahold of - AMR's legal department has been ruthlessly going after anyone who posts it over copyright infringement.

Here is is, at least for now.

 

[Henning]

Here is is, at least for now.

That was a good piece.

 

[denverpilot]

Add in the fact we have 2 USAF "Intro to Flying" schools that take up a huge chunk of space that's not charted anywhere except a cartoon in the AF/D.

Call the USAFA directly. They recently published their own chart.

Copies are also floating around the CAP squadron, one of the Crew Chiefs hounded the USAFA until they did something about it, looked like to me. (Steve I think.)

I don't remember who they said their contact was at AFA.

Getting it into an FAA publication? Probably a snowballs chance in hell.

Knowing your volunteer job role you could probably publish it and get it wider visibility via CPA...

 

[WhiskeyPapa]

Only for non pilots, AP use is disqualifying for pilots.

hey Henning, you a member?

 

[alang]

Not isolated to grumpy old men, there's a starry eyed PPL hopeful sitting at a kitchen table with a slide rule somewhere in America right now.

I managed a degree in Mathematics without touching a slide rule.

Abacus??

 

[Turbo]

I use my Garmin 430 for every single cross country and more. It's so convenient and easy to use.

 

[silver-eagle]

Why.. its free!

Free? Hardly. The cost of upgrading so you can actually use any of the features are going to sink most GA.
I prefer to fly with a current chart and a marked line on it. Plan it out and fly the plan. My Warrior has a KLN89B with a current database. Still, I don't find it difficult to fly along following roads and landmarks with or without the GPS. When I was training (mostly in this plane) we were forbidden to use the GPS. Like all tools, a GPS can make you lazy. You lose the manual skills if you don't practice them.
I find it funny that while training in the Schweizer, every instructor I've ever flown with sets the GPS to the home airport. It's like they won't ever find their way back. On the other hand, it could very well be that when they let a STU out on their own, they want to make sure they get the helicopter back.

 

[poadeleted21]

Abacus??

Since we changed from sexigecimal to base 10, you just use your fingers.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Free? Hardly. The cost of upgrading so you can actually use any of the features are going to sink most GA.
I prefer to fly with a current chart and a marked line on it. Plan it out and fly the plan. My Warrior has a KLN89B with a current database. Still, I don't find it difficult to fly along following roads and landmarks with or without the GPS. When I was training (mostly in this plane) we were forbidden to use the GPS. Like all tools, a GPS can make you lazy. You lose the manual skills if you don't practice them.
I find it funny that while training in the Schweizer, every instructor I've ever flown with sets the GPS to the home airport. It's like they won't ever find their way back. On the other hand, it could very well be that when they let a STU out on their own, they want to make sure they get the helicopter back.

You can get lost at Schweizer speeds?