Why the GPS hate?

[colojo]

I have a G1000 with the G700 autopilot, but since I'm a purist I hand-fly with both breakers pulled and the screens dark, using the backup steam gauges, compass and a sextant to navigate. My latitude drifts a bit in IMC but I'll be damned if I'm going to rely on those electronic crutches.

 

[murphey]

What's funny is that the B-25 in my avatar actually has an Aspen PFD in the panel. Just doesn't seem right. Thankfully it was OOC when I did my SIC type!

Gotta love the various flying B17, incluuding the EAA's. Every one of the warbirds and WW2 aircraft I've seen has (at the minimum) a handheld GPS.

 

[murphey]

Installed certified or handheld or does it matter?

 

[murphey]

Two things, TV obsession as mentioned by Dee. Ever try to get kids attention when they are glued to cartoons? Yeah that's what we have flying around. Second try another poll, ask how many won't fly without an onboard GPS in anything(Wacos included.) Also scary. It isn't GPS use, it is overuse and fear/incompetence without it.

Unfortunately out west, there's so many R,A, MOA and military training routes, a handheld GPS is almost required to stay out of trouble.

 

[frfly172]

Learned the old ways,flew my first actual with just radios,no autopilot . If you are against GPS are you still driving a horse and buggy?

 

[Fearless Tower]

Installed certified or handheld or does it matter?

I like having both

 

[murphey]

The selective availability was really only an issue for approach level accuracy. Still plenty accurate for enroute Nav. The maritime world was well into GPS use in the early 90s.

My first hiker's GPS was a Garmin 12 I bought in 1997.

 

[MAKG1]

Unfortunately out west, there's so many R,A, MOA and military training routes, a handheld GPS is almost required to stay out of trouble.

You're kidding, right?

I fly most of the time without a GPS, and have never busted restricted airspace. The rest of it is not required to avoid, but awareness is a good idea.

It's not hard to identify landmarks on the ground, and flight following when available serves as a useful backup.

It's MUCH harder to avoid Class B and especially TFRs (and there are a lot of stadiums), but that can be done with landmarks as well. Restricted airspace usually has much simpler geometry, generally a single ceiling or maybe two of them (charted as two different zones). And most of them are not possible to overfly in a spam can.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Learned the old ways,flew my first actual with just radios,no autopilot . If you are against GPS are you still driving a horse and buggy?

Whoever is really AGAINST GPS, please raise your hand.

Lots of GPS lovers like to bash this mythical contingent of pilots who despise GPS, but those people are about as common as Bigfoot.

There was a guy who posted here for a while (Ladamson) who routinely tilted at those windmills, but the reality is that there are people who see GPS as the be all end all navigation source and the rest of the pilot population who sees it as one of many tools available to us.

 

[Fearless Tower]

It's MUCH harder to avoid Class B and especially TFRs (and there are a lot of stadiums), but that can be done with landmarks as well.

Certainly true in a lot of areas, although I'd have to say that flying VFR in the Phoenix area, I much prefer to use landmarks than the box.....but then, I grew up there and have been seeing it from the air for close to 40 years.

 

[MAKG1]

Whoever is really AGAINST GPS, please raise your hand.

I'm against it when it detracts from more important things like scanning for traffic.

When preplanned, a GPS can reduce workload. When done on the fly, it can increase it, and all that is heads down time.

It's fine when you enter your flight plan in the run-up area. It's not fine when you do it while crossing a navaid or anywhere near known traffic.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I'm against it when it detracts from more important things like scanning for traffic.



When preplanned, a GPS can reduce workload. When done on the fly, it can increase it, and all that is heads down time.



It's fine when you enter your flight plan in the run-up area. It's not fine when you do it while crossing a navaid or anywhere near known traffic.

Yes, but my point is you aren't really against GPS per se, just don't believe it the only thing you use.

 

[danhagan]

I didn't participate in the poll. I have a 530, an Iphone, an IPad and an old GPS of some sort in the back of the plane. I don't depend on the GPS, but I do enter a FP in the 530 on long XC (but am usually NOT on the magenta line). I use it for general SA, but normally try to stay in gliding range of something hospitable here out west especially in the summer (comes down to how far are you willing to WALK for help in 100* heat). I also tune the DME and have BOTH VOR's tuned in so that in an emergency I can give an exact location to ATC. Identical to Henning, I have most of the western U.S. sectionals in the plane as well (although they're expired - I don't use for frequencies). In short, most of my flights are by pilotage and end up not being direct GPS routes often due to winds over the ridges and trying to pick a better and/or safer ride.

 

[MAKG1]

Yes, but my point is you aren't really against GPS per se, just don't believe it the only thing you use.

Yes.

I occasionally fly with a 430, and I do turn it on when it's available, and not just for the nav/comm.

I occasionally give the tablet another try-out, but it fails some test or another almost every time, so it's always secondary. Last time, it crashed right before a handoff to tower. Good thing I had the frequency written down. Circling just outside Class D airspace isn't the best spot.

 

[poadeleted20]

Exactly. Use all the tools available.

...but maintain the ability to get the job done if some of those tools suddenly become unavailable, and expect to be trained and tested accordingly. :wink2:

 

[MickYoumans]

Well this has at least been entertaining and good hearted. How is the poll going?

I took my wife to lunch and now there's three pages of comments to read through. It looks like it is the vocal minority that does most of the bashing. Even though this is certainly not a scientific poll, it does reflect what I suspected. Most pilots do like and appreciate what GPS can do for them. I am in full agreement with everyone that you need to learn the fundamentals of flying without a GPS, but otherwise it is a great tool to have in the cockpit.

Someone commented about GPS distracting VFR pilots, keeping them heads down in the cockpit instead of scanning the outside world. When I reflect back on my student pilot days, I had a Cessna 150M with only one Nav/Com in it. I would select a VOR and dial in my radial and plot it on the sectional, then select another VOR and plot it to see where the two lines intersected. Over time I got to where I could mentally do this without having to physically draw the lines to see the intersection but it still took a bit of time to dial in the two VOR's and dial up the radials. I seem to remember spending way more heads down time back then than I have ever done with a GPS. The GPS is just another instrument to scan when I'm running through all of the other instruments in the plane. If you thoroughly learn to use the GPS on the ground, it is really quick and easy to make adjustments to flight plans or pull up needed information on the fly. For me it reduces the head down time and the agrevation of fooling with paper charts. I actually feel like I have more time to scan the horizon for other planes and enjoy the scenery because of it reducing my navigational work load.

 

[Henning]

Basically: Use it if you have it, but don't have to use it.

 

[Ghery]

I love using a 430. I also love naviagating with just VOR's. To keep me in check and current with both, I'll switch off flying IFR in a /U and /G. Its hard to find a plane without GPS in it nowadays. If its in the plane, why not use? Know how to work ALL the equipment in your aircraft

None of the poll answers reflect my situation, which also disproves the statement bolded above. 4 planes in the club. ONE has a GNS430W in the panel. One has a non-approach certified GPS. The other two have a GPS if you bring one with you. I can fly appropriate approaches in any of them. Is the 430 nice? You betcha. Will I lose my way if it dies? Nope.

 

[Neal Howard]

I'm against it when it detracts from more important things like scanning for traffic.

That's what's so nice about having a GPS-coupled autopilot. It lets me pay much, much more attention looking outside the plane for traffic since staying precisely on the course line is being done for me.

 

[peerlesscowboy]

..................................
Someone commented about GPS distracting VFR pilots, keeping them heads down in the cockpit instead of scanning the outside world. ..................

It perhaps depends a lot on how familiar you are with your GPS functions? I find reprogramming the GPS for an inflight route change to be more of a head down, eyes inside deal than simply setting a frequency and the proper radial on the VOR, easiest of all is just tuning the right freq' on the ADF and identifying the station. In the progression from ADF-->VOR-->GPS .....it seems like we've just shifted the from interpretation to programming?

 

[poadeleted21]

GPS coupled to Autopilot makes the mile high club to easy to get into.

 

[Henning]

GPS coupled to Autopilot makes the mile high club to easy to get into.

Only for non pilots, AP use is disqualifying for pilots.

 

[Keith Lane]

Mick, you ever live in or around Macon? Seems like I remember somebody who went by the name "Mickey Youmans", a long time ago.

 

[MickYoumans]

Mick, you ever live in or around Macon? Seems like I remember somebody who went by the name "Mickey Youmans", a long time ago.

Yes, that would be me. I went to Lanier/Central High and graduated in '72. And yes it has been a long time ago. After finishing high school I went off to college and have not lived there since. I still get back over there from time to time, but I've lost track of so many of the friends I had as a teenager. Do you remember what we had in common that caused you to remember my name? Your name seems familiar to me too but I can't quite place the connection.

On a side note, my older brother lives on Brown Bridge road between Conyers and Covington. According to your location information you are currently up in the same area. I ocassionally fly in to the airport there in Covington to visit my brother. There is a resturant (I think the name of it is Thomas Buffet) that is in the old train station. My brother will pick me up at the airport and we stop off at the buffet to eat on the way to his house. Do you fly out of KCVC?

 

[Kelvin]

I guess I am an oddity...I turn 50 in August, have owned three planes, flow closer to 1200 hours that 1150 since 2007 and have not flown ONE hour in an aircraft without two TV screens.

I cna fly VOR's and my new plane had an ADF that I spin up for fun but really don't know enough about it to use it as a "tool".

I was taught by a guy who was fond of "stuff" failing at the worst possible moment...but if t wroked he wanted me to use it ALL...I have always thought this was a healthy attitude towards the respurces in the dash of the aircrafts I flew.

Love? Hate? Meeehhh. Neither...Like some have said...tools.

 

[peerlesscowboy]

..............
I can fly VOR's and my new plane had an ADF that I spin up for fun but really don't know enough about it to use it as a "tool".

It's not that hard really, once you understand it and practice with it. OTOH the NDBs are disappearing fast and in a few years I suspect they'll stop flight checking the approaches. 25 years ago when I got my instrument rating a good ADF was considered pretty essential to any serious IFR panel, the NDB approach was one of the 3 types you flew on the check ride and if you couldn't perform one to practical test standards you'd be sent home with a pink slip. I kind'a hate to see their inevitable demise perhaps because it reminds me of my own inevitable mortality.

 

[MAKG1]

NDBs are still dominant in Alaska and much of the rest of the world.

"Unofficial" NDBs (AM radio stations) are still commonplace. They are often labeled on VFR charts as reporting points, but not with the frequencies.

 

[jordane93]

None of the poll answers reflect my situation, which also disproves the statement bolded above. 4 planes in the club. ONE has a GNS430W in the panel. One has a non-approach certified GPS. The other two have a GPS if you bring one with you. I can fly appropriate approaches in any of them. Is the 430 nice? You betcha. Will I lose my way if it dies? Nope.

Ok, maybe it was an overstatement but I think the majority of new students WANT GPS in their planes. People are attracted to Cirrus's/similar glass cockpits 1. becuase they look cool, 2. they like the technology in it.

 

[Keith Lane]

Yes, that would be me. I went to Lanier/Central High and graduated in '72. And yes it has been a long time ago. After finishing high school I went off to college and have not lived there since. I still get back over there from time to time, but I've lost track of so many of the friends I had as a teenager. Do you remember what we had in common that caused you to remember my name? Your name seems familiar to me too but I can't quite place the connection.

On a side note, my older brother lives on Brown Bridge road between Conyers and Covington. According to your location information you are currently up in the same area. I ocassionally fly in to the airport there in Covington to visit my brother. There is a resturant (I think the name of it is Thomas Buffet) that is in the old train station. My brother will pick me up at the airport and we stop off at the buffet to eat on the way to his house. Do you fly out of KCVC?

I went to Lanier Jr. (with the fishbowl) in 68/69, then got bussed over to Southwest at the end of 69, graduated in 73. We might've shared a class, or maybe were in the band together (?).... Did you do the ROTC thing? I was actually looking forward to that. S.W. was a real drag, and
Ihated those 3 years with a passion.

I had a 172 for 17 years and based it out at Madison, Ge (52A) for the last 7 or 8 years after mofing it up from Perry, Ga (KPXE), then sold it last spring. Not flying at all now except for with a friend @ KCVC who owns a polished Ercoupe 415C (in museum quality). I live off Ga 212 about a mile east of the monastery, if that means anything. 212 turns into Brown Bridge Road about 3 miles east of me.

BTW, I used GPS but always had a finger on a map too. Kinda of a belt and suspenders sort of thing. :wink2:

 

[MickYoumans]

I went to Lanier Jr. (with the fishbowl) in 68/69, then got bussed over to Southwest at the end of 69, graduated in 73. We might've shared a class, or maybe were in the band together (?).... Did you do the ROTC thing?:

Yes, but in order to prevent derailing the thread, check your PM's.

 

[DeeG]

You're kidding, right?

I fly most of the time without a GPS, and have never busted restricted airspace. The rest of it is not required to avoid, but awareness is a good idea.

I was thinking the same thing when I read that post. I flew out of Cal City for several years. Right next to Edwards AFB. Never did bust any MOA's, R's etc flying without a GPS. It was fun times, skirting the edges of the R's to visit Death Valley, Vegas, etc. But every once in a while we'd cheat and get clearance through them.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Yup. No hate for GPS.

Only annoyance for the long string of low time pilots / students who moan and complain that their CFIs are making them learn to fly by old fashioned pilotage instead of their fancy toy.

Which is invariably followed by all the justifications on why they are special, unique, and precious, and their GPS will never fail and leave them bumbling along lost, until the day that it does.

 

[VanDy]

You simply cannot fly a tail wheel aircraft with a GPS. That just goes against nature.

This was an inevitable comment you know!!!

Finally! Someone gets it! ftw! /thread

 

[noobJohn]

I'm a low time guy but, frankly, the GPS scares me a little. Not because I don't know how to use it, but because it makes navigation SO EASY that it's tempting to use it as your only source. Like the devil on your shoulder saying follow me, follow me.

The plane I trained in (and now rent) has a GPS and it was never turned on until after I had my license. Since getting my license, the GPS is a powerful force that makes me want slack off in flight planning and situational awareness. I force myself to use VORs, ded reckoning, and landmarks, but that GPS is always on and reassuring me I'm not lost. Having written this, I think I'll leave the GPS off on my next couple of cross countries.

Yup. No hate for GPS.

Only annoyance for the long string of low time pilots / students who moan and complain that their CFIs are making them learn to fly by old fashioned pilotage instead of their fancy toy.

Which is invariably followed by all the justifications on why they are special, unique, and precious, and their GPS will never fail and leave them bumbling along lost, until the day that it does.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

I'm a low time guy but, frankly, the GPS scares me a little. Not because I don't know how to use it, but because it makes navigation SO EASY that it's tempting to use it as your only source. Like the devil on your shoulder saying follow me, follow me.

The plane I trained in (and now rent) has a GPS and it was never turned on until after I had my license. Since getting my license, the GPS is a powerful force that makes me want slack off in flight planning and situational awareness. I force myself to use VORs, ded reckoning, and landmarks, but that GPS is always on and reassuring me I'm not lost. Having written this, I think I'll leave the GPS off on my next couple of cross countries.

And here we have a balance. Uses his GPS on some flights, remembers to keep his pilotage exercised. Not bad. :wink2:

 

[VanDy]

How about this, it totally depends...

 

[murphey]

You're kidding, right?

Nope.

I fly most of the time without a GPS, and have never busted restricted airspace. The rest of it is not required to avoid, but awareness is a good idea.

It's not hard to identify landmarks on the ground, and flight following when available serves as a useful backup.

Not always. In flatland the landmarks may not be uniquely identifiable. And flight following out here is too often spotty or non possible. Add in the fact we have 2 USAF "Intro to Flying" schools that take up a huge chunk of space that's not charted anywhere except a cartoon in the AF/D.

It's MUCH harder to avoid Class B and especially TFRs (and there are a lot of stadiums), but that can be done with landmarks as well. Restricted airspace usually has much simpler geometry, generally a single ceiling or maybe two of them (charted as two different zones). And most of them are not possible to overfly in a spam can.

Class B is the about the only area we don't have problems with, and the stadium TFRs are easy because the big two are within walking distance of each other and in downtown Denver. Avoid downtown, no problem.

Everything is dependent on location and type of traffic.

 

[noahfong]

Mick,

I'll take a shot at directly answering your question.

I think it's partially because many of us do not have or have access to a GPS equipped airplane. I voted that I would love to have a GPS, if I could. So, we hang onto the conventional navs and make like we're better than those GPS dudes.

It also doesn't help that many folks who have GPS seemed to espouse the "it's time we ditched all those obsolete VORs" slogan. What this says to us "nobodys" is that they don't care if we all get grounded. Not intended that way, of course, but that's what would happen. Kind of like the have's forgetting about the have not's.

So, in defense, we bash GPS, glass, etc.

Having said that, I do fly a Garmin 430 a/c regularly (for a small-time commercial gig) and have learned to use it pretty well. And I really, really, wish I could afford one. I have flown with someone who flies a G1000-equipped a/c and have played with it. I'm was like a grimy-faced poor kid looking at a castle. But I'm struggling and praying to just keep my old Narcos going; let along being able to afford to plunk down tens of thousand of $$ for any GPS.

So, I have learned not to bash GPS users and the magenta line and all that. But I am frustrated at people who push GPS in my face and tell me they have no use for VORs and don't care if they go away. I just wish that we can all get along and understand that we all need all the navaids we can get so that all of us can keep flying. I think that's the best win for all of us.

 

[MickYoumans]

Interesting perspective Noah. I would have thought that TSO'ed GPS' would have dropped more in price by now, but it amazes me how much even the used Garmin 430's go for on eBay. I don't think we need to throw the VOR's out the door yet either, but I do fully embrace newer technology. My first airplane was a Cessna 150M that only had one Nav/Com. Loran radios were popular in the early 80's. I bought one for $1000 since it was cheaper than a second nav/com and installed it in the 150. I remember one trip coming back from Fun N Sun in Florida, the ceiling was lowering and pushing me down. When I got down around 2000' my VOR reception became unreliable and snakey, but my loran was still giving me extremely accurate information. Even though Loran and GPS differ in their method of signal transmission, for me the GPS was like an extension of the Loran radio but with moving maps, plus all of the other neat EFB features found in todays GPS. I like being able to stack the deck any way I can in my favor when flying, so I like having both GPS and VOR's at my disposal.

 

[WhiskeyPapa]

Well, why you flying then? Walk.

i often fly without gps...
especially when not going too far...
for a while I couldn't even find my 696, but it has turned up, so will start using it again, but VORs work fine for me. Even that feels like cheating.

I tend to do long international cross countries.