Why request "VFR On Top" Mr. Bungle?

tlglenn said:
It can be useful if the MEA is something odd like 8100, you're in VMC anyways, dont want to cancel IFR, and you don't feel like climbing to 10,000.
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That is the only reason that would make sense.
 
tlglenn said:
It can be useful if the MEA is something odd like 8100, you're in VMC anyways, dont want to cancel IFR, and you don't feel like climbing to 10,000.
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That makes sense to me too.
I am flat-lander so I did not think of mountainous terrain and MEAs.

And I always wondered what VFR-on-top would buy me on an IFR flight plan.
 
Block altitudes are what are nice. Then you can "play with the clouds" (in and out ,over and below), fly the "cloud canyon" etc...
 
BigBadLou said:
That makes sense to me too.
I am flat-lander so I did not think of mountainous terrain and MEAs.

And I always wondered what VFR-on-top would buy me on an IFR flight plan.
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The ability to turn VOTP into an IFR clearance by simply saying "Center, I'd like a hard altitude, please." On many occasions I filed IFR with VOTP as my altitude (can't do that anymore with ICAO) when I was returning to the Seattle area and knew that the Puget Sound Basin was socked in. On initial contact, Center would ask for my VFR cruise altitude, which was almost always 6500 over flat terrain east or south of Seattle, and when i got close in all I had to do was ask.

Bob
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I want to do this.
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Get an instrument rating, and go flying around stable cloud layers, especially with terrain causing it to wiggle. Then file for just above the tops. The top of a low stable layer with a few thousand feet of waves in it looks really cool. If you're 1000 above, you can even cancel IFR and go playing. But it's more fun to skim it, and you can't do that VFR or VFR on top.

Honestly, that's one of the big benefits of an instrument rating for a hobby pilot.
 
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bobmrg said:
The ability to turn VOTP into an IFR clearance by simply saying "Center, I'd like a hard altitude, please." On many occasions I filed IFR with VOTP as my altitude (can't do that anymore with ICAO) when I was returning to the Seattle area and knew that the Puget Sound Basin was socked in. On initial contact, Center would ask for my VFR cruise altitude, which was almost always 6500 over flat terrain east or south of Seattle, and when i got close in all I had to do was ask.

Bob
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That's a good application of it. Get your clearance, when you can, go OTP. ATC doesn't have to separate you from other IFR traffic so it's easier to get direct's and other shortcuts and not get lousy altitude assignments. Now when it's time to get back down you don't have to go through the hassle of getting a clearance. You have been on an IFR clearance the entire time. You now just need an altitude assignment before you go back into the goo.
 
genna said:
The entire purpose of it is to be able to pick your own altitude to stay out of clouds. Can make for a smoother ride if you care. You are still on IFR clearance and ATC is still responsible for separation. but unlike requesting new altitude, you simply inform ATC of a new altitude(like with flight following).
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That's not correct, ATC does not apply IFR separation to aircraft operating VFR-on-top. Controllers must provide traffic advisories and safety alerts but separation is the pilot's responsibility.
 
Bonchie said:
I'm no expert (just your lowly IFR pilot), but VFR on top is simply ATC clearing you to maintain a VFR altitude of your choosing after entering VMC conditions above the layer. You are still IFR, still must follow routing, and are still under control of ATC if they need you to do something.
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Given that while you're operating VFR-on-top ATC does not provide IFR separation there isn't very much ATC would need you to do. If your route took you through an active Restricted Area they'd have to alter it to make sure you stayed clear of it, but you'd have to do that even if you were VFR and not in communication with ATC.
 
Shepherd said:
I file an IFR plan to go direct somewhere.
After I depart, ATC tells me I need to go to 4 other cardinal directions because someone else wants my direction and altitude.
My response is almost always "I'm now VFR on top. Enjoy the day."
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VFR-on-top is an IFR operation requiring an appropriate clearance. You can cancel IFR, but you cannot clear yourself to operate VFR-on-top.
 
brcase said:
In the terminal environment it can work very well when low level clouds/visibility is present. I have departed IFR with low time students, climb on top and then request VFR on TOP so we can work on slow flight, Steep turns, stalls, etc. and when ready to return just request vectors for the ILS.
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What is your route clearance while you're working on slow flight, steep turns, stalls, etc.?

I have also used it when practicing IFR approaches in similar conditions, by requesting VFR on TOP the controller can vector us closer to other traffic while vectoring us back for another approach.
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How do you comply with VFR visibility and cloud clearance and IFR minimum altitudes?
 
The "on top" phrase seems to suggest a cloud layer, but if there are no clouds, is there a reason to use VFR on top? Maybe in cruise, with an expectation of clouds at the destination that would require an IFR clearance?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
What's the point of that request?

Doesn't sound like something a nice pilot would do.

You are in an IFR plight plan, and you are saying "Hey once I get up here, I am going to do my own thing don't you worry.
I'll let you know when I need you again"? Seems it would benefit both parties to stick with the plan (AKA the IFR flight plan)


Seems kind of rude.
It sounds like the Pilot / ATC relationship version of:

"Can you hold the ladder while I get on the roof?"
"Thanks for the help buddy now don't bother me. In fact just get outta here, scram beat it."
"I don't need you or anyone else for that matter"

2 hours later

"Hey buddy, I am sorry about that before. We're cool do you mind bringing that ladder back over here so I can get down?"

Who are you to treat ATC like this. This doesn't sound like a good friend to me.
A Mr. Bungle would treat people like this and use them only when in need but you are not a Mr. Bungle and would never treat your friend ATC this way.

So what's the point?

*10 points if you get the Mr. Bungle reference (From actual childhood memory not google. A Mr. Bungle would google it and pretend he knows).
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I can't understand this kind of thinking. During my career I used VOTP dozens (if not hundreds) of times, all to my advantage. It is a valuable tool. I think you have a basic misunderstanding of what VOTP allows and how it is to be used.

Bob Gardner
 
NoHeat said:
The "on top" phrase seems to suggest a cloud layer, but if there are no clouds, is there a reason to use VFR on top? Maybe in cruise, with an expectation of clouds at the destination that would require an IFR clearance?
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See my Feb 22 post.

Bob
 
bobmrg said:
See my Feb 22 post.

Bob
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Okay, but that answers only the second of my two questions, and says nothing about my first question re. whether the presence of clouds and their top is an essential part of flying "on top".
 
NoHeat said:
Okay, but that answers only the second of my two questions, and says nothing about my first question re. whether the presence of clouds and their top is an essential part of flying "on top".
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In the scenario I described in February (which was a five-day-a-week freight trip) the existence of clouds at my departure airport (Spokane or Pasco) was immaterial because if there were any I was going to punch through them on the way to my VOTP altitude anyway. The whole idea was getting into the IFR system as soon as possible and flying in the clear across Eastern Washington until I could see that the Puget Sound basin was wall-to-wall clouds and then simply ask Center for a hard (e.g. exact 1000') altitude and slide right on in.

Back in the day I got my instrument rating so that I could fly in the clouds...it didn't take long for me to realize that it is much smoother above them, so "What are the tops?" became my mantra.

Bob
 
If you don't act like Mr. Bungle, you are given a huge piece of cake. That's reason enough not to act like Mr. Bungle.
 
roncachamp said:
What is your route clearance while you're working on slow flight, steep turns, stalls, etc.?



How do you comply with VFR visibility and cloud clearance and IFR minimum altitudes?
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As I recall the route clearance was something like, "cleared to xyz airport, via own navigation", been a few years since I had the opportunity to do. I usually just tell them what I want to do and let them figure out how to do it. Something like "we would like to maneuver in the area for about 20 minutes or so"

When using it for approaches, means I am just punching through a layer on the approach, and as "VFR on top" implies I am on top of the clouds when being vectored back for the next approach.

Brian
 
brcase said:
As I recall the route clearance was something like, "cleared to xyz airport, via own navigation", been a few years since I had the opportunity to do. I usually just tell them what I want to do and let them figure out how to do it. Something like "we would like to maneuver in the area for about 20 minutes or so"
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"Own navigation" does not define a route. For airwork like you describe under an IFR clearance it's common to assign a block of airspace defined by NAVAID direction and distance.

When using it for approaches, means I am just punching through a layer on the approach, and as "VFR on top" implies I am on top of the clouds when being vectored back for the next approach.
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You cannot punch through a layer while operating VFR-on-top.
 
VFR on top doesn't lower the minimum IFR altitude. If the MEA for an airway is 8100ft and you're eastbound, VFR on top won't let you drop to 7500ft. The minimum IFR altitude still applies.

VOT removes IFR separation requirements, though, so if there was conflicting IFR traffic ahead of you precluding you from getting the altitude you wanted, you could request VOT (assuming you maintain the appropriate cloud clearance) to get the altitude you want.
 
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