Why not more Lancair Evolution?

[Tantalum]

With the flagship of the line, the 850, offering somewhat TBM comparable performance at a QUARTER of the cost.. why aren't we seeing more of them around? Is it simply because it's 4 place? Then why not appeal to the Cirrus crowd... same price, but a hell of a lot faster, and you're not sitting behind a 100 year old POS Conti, and it even has a parachute.

So what gives?

Just about every airport I go to has a few TBM on the ramp and some variation of Piper turboprops, but I've, to date, only seen one Evolution, and it was at Oceano at an EAA fly in

https://www.evolutionaircraft.com/aircraft/evolution-turbine/#specs-top

 

[steingar]

Wasn't Evolution shut down for awhile after litigation from several crashes?

 

[Velocity173]

Because their windows like to blow out at FLs.

 

[Tantalum]

Wasn't Evolution shut down for awhile after litigation from several crashes?

I am not sure actually, but if that's the case that could explain it. What were the crashes from? Too much plane for people?

 

[Tantalum]

Because their windows like to blow out at FLs.

 

[Lowflynjack]

With the flagship of the line, the 850, offering somewhat TBM comparable performance at a QUARTER of the cost.. why aren't we seeing more of them around? Is it simply because it's 4 place? Then why not appeal to the Cirrus crowd... same price, but a hell of a lot faster, and you're not sitting behind a 100 year old POS Conti, and it even has a parachute.

So what gives?

Just about every airport I go to has a few TBM on the ramp and some variation of Piper turboprops, but I've, to date, only seen one Evolution, and it was at Oceano at an EAA fly in

Nobody is spending over $1M (not including the engine) and then building their own TBM, Piper, or Cirrus! People might pay for an equivalent plane, but you're comparing something I have to buy, then build to something I can go get right now. Their own website says you can have it ready to build in 7 months, after their 2-week build program! I'm not a builder and I don't imagine too many people using TBMs are either. Not to mention the time out of my schedule...

They seem to be targeting the Cirrus and give comparisons to it, not the bigger planes.

 

[Tantalum]

Nobody is spending over $1M (not including the engine) and then building their own TBM, Piper, or Cirrus! People might pay for an equivalent plane, but you're comparing something I have to buy, then build to something I can go get right now. Their own website says you can have it ready to build in 7 months, after their 2-week build program! I'm not a builder and I don't imagine too many people using TBMs are either. Not to mention the time out of my schedule...

They seem to be targeting the Cirrus and give comparisons to it, not the bigger planes.

Fair point, but with the thriving EA world and plenty of people out there with money seeking performance I didn't know if there was some other factor blighting these planes

 

[Lowflynjack]

Fair point, but with the thriving EA world and plenty of people out there with money seeking performance I didn't know if there was some other factor blighting these planes

My friend's hangar neighbor in Mesquite has one. I'm pretty sure his nose gear collapsed on it, but I don't remember hearing about any other issues.

Looks pretty cool, but just costing more than a Cirrus before you even have an engine, and you have to spend a year building it... hard comparison. Now if they built them and sold them for $2M, you might get that Cirrus guy who wants to fly a real plane.

 

[Fallsrider]

Because their windows like to blow out at FLs.

Has that happened more than once? I know I read the article in Flying about the family that had that happen. Fortunately, he crash landed safely and they walked away with minor injuries.

 

[dans2992]

I’ve heard that insurance became tough after the stall/spin at FFZ. But, since they’re still flying I have to think that’s loosened up.

 

[Velocity173]

Has that happened more than once? I know I read the article in Flying about the family that had that happen. Fortunately, he crash landed safely and they walked away with minor injuries.

Only once but they’ve had other accidents that have made them basically uninsurable.

Spend over a million in building a 4 seat, 300 kt home built or spend less than a million on a used 6 seat 260 kt certified Meridian. Personally, I go with the later.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...olution-aircraft-co-appears-to-have-shuttered

 

[Geosync]

Certified airplanes offer better maintenance support as well. And insurance is a big issue. Insurers don't like single pilot experimental high performance turboprops, because those that can afford it are usually very wealthy, not particularly experienced pilot thrill seekers, flying their wealthy buddies. So one crash wipes out a couple millionaires, and the lawsuits go flying.

 

[AKBill]

Looks cool, would love the turboprop, you can keep the side stick yoke.. 1million for a homebuilt no way..

 

[Ted]

The big issue I see with the Evolution is that by the time people are spending that much money, most of them want a cabin class 6 seater and not a 4 seater. The Evolution is a nice flying, comfortable airplane (I flew the first piston Evolution) but much like a Mooney, most of the people can afford it can also afford something that's got more space and more comfort, and they will take those for the little bit less speed that it has. Plus being an experimental it's got a more limited market, and to get one new you have to go through the "builders assist" school for 2 weeks, which a lot of the people who can afford it don't have time to do, but they can afford to write a check.

Then add in a few of the issues with windows and... yeah, hard sell.

 

[schmookeeg]

The evo has been my "lotto win" plane forever. Sad to hear the fleet is in a graveyard spiral.

I'd be sick as mud if I built a $1MM+ plane and couldn't get it insured.

 

[Tantalum]

The big issue I see with the Evolution is that by the time people are spending that much money, most of them want a cabin class 6 seater and not a 4 seater. The Evolution is a nice flying, comfortable airplane (I flew the first piston Evolution) but much like a Mooney, most of the people can afford it can also afford something that's got more space and more comfort, and they will take those for the little bit less speed that it has. Plus being an experimental it's got a more limited market, and to get one new you have to go through the "builders assist" school for 2 weeks, which a lot of the people who can afford it don't have time to do, but they can afford to write a check.

Then add in a few of the issues with windows and... yeah, hard sell.

Thanks, I guess when you add all the negatives together it snowballs. I figured with people (when all is said and done) spending more than $1M on a Cirrus to go 180 knots with 3(ish) people, then something like this gives them and extra 120 knots of knots for half what a TBM is and still gives them the parachute piece of mind, etc.

But when you factor in all the items you mentioned the market dries up I guess

With the Epic now certified it will be interesting to see how that plane fairs. Though I understand it's in a completely different class with its cabin

I'd be sick as mud if I built a $1MM+ plane and couldn't get it insured.

Depends how much you won the lottery for



It's a really cool plane, I spent a long time ogling the one at Oceano I saw and the owner was wicked nice actually. Sorry, no pictures though, I didn't want to be THAT guy

 

[Brad Smith]

If you can afford an Evolution you can qualify for a TBM and start flying TODAY, not 7 years from now. Also, most guys I know in that tax bracket didn’t earn their money getting their hands dirty, so building is not really a practical option.

 

[Ted]

If you can afford an Evolution you can qualify for a TBM and start flying TODAY, not 7 years from now. Also, most guys I know in that tax bracket didn’t earn their money getting their hands dirty, so building is not really a practical option.

Keep in mind the Evolution is not like a typical homebuilt, unless they changed the model. It was only available with the build school. In other words, go for 2 weeks, get the pictures of you holding a wrench in front of the wing, and fly away with your plane (with some training in there). Mechanical ability didn't seem to be much of an issue from what I could tell since it was all figured out for you.

The way I see it is more of a time thing. You still need to take two weeks to go to the build school, then some additional time for your initial training. Compare that to a standard turboprop where you just write a check and then you have to do the initial training and that's it. Most people in that tax bracket are really busy, and time is a precious commodity.

And then, you still have a 4 seater.

 

[dans2992]

Only once but they’ve had other accidents that have made them basically uninsurable.

Spend over a million in building a 4 seat, 300 kt home built or spend less than a million on a used 6 seat 260 kt certified Meridian. Personally, I go with the later.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...olution-aircraft-co-appears-to-have-shuttered

Wouldn’t maintaining the Meridian cost significantly more, given that you need “approved” parts, etc? I thought there was a lot more flexibility with Experimental.

 

[Brad Smith]

Wouldn’t maintaining the Meridian cost significantly more, given that you need “approved” parts, etc? I thought there was a lot more flexibility with Experimental.

There may be more flexibility with experimentals, but you have to be careful what you are substituting in place of approved parts on a 300kt. airplane.

 

[Velocity173]

Wouldn’t maintaining the Meridian cost significantly more, given that you need “approved” parts, etc? I thought there was a lot more flexibility with Experimental.

That’s generally true but that goes back to the times of EABs being built with auto / hardware store parts. The Evolution was designed to meet Part 23 criteria. Those parts aren’t going to be cheap. Also, a Pt-6 is a Pt-6 anyway you cut it. Builders aren’t going to be throwing unapproved parts on a Pt-6.

Certified used Meridian at 3/4 the cost with good component times and a bigger cabin. That’s the way I’d go.

 

[ktup-flyer]

With the Epic now certified it will be interesting to see how that plane fairs. Though I understand it's in a completely different class with its cabin

Get in one if you make it to Oshkosh. Very very impressive cabin and cockpit

 

[Grum.Man]

As others have said at this price point it’s a tool more than a pleasure toy. Being experimental it brings complications to insurance, maintenance, financing, and liability risk. Seems it fits in the range or incomes that can afford the airplane but maybe not the turbo prop expense, or someone who can afford both and would rather have a Meridian.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

I've always been skeptical of the advertised 61 kt. gross weight stall speed.

 

[midwestpa24]

Fair point, but with the thriving EA world and plenty of people out there with money seeking performance I didn't know if there was some other factor blighting these planes

You are looking at a very specific market.

The experimental world is thriving.
There are plenty of people out there with money seeking performance.

There aren't a lot of people with money seeking performance, willing to put in the blood, sweat, and tears involved in the experimental world. People with money realize Time=Money, and their time is their most valuable asset. Most would rather just buy something than spend months or years building it.

 

[Tantalum]

Since 1995 to date I found that over 70 Lancair IV's have crashed. This is horrible and if you read all the details you will soon learn that anyone who
thinks this is a good plane is joking themselves. The new Pipistrel Panthera has a video on youtube where they do a 10 rotation spin and recover. You can't even safely stall a lancair. IMO they should ground all the IV's. With that being said I understand the new Evolutions have a complete new wing and landing gear. So I won't include these new planes. I have not seen where one of the new ones have crashed. I think all homebuilts should have to go through stall and spin recovery. We had a lot of trouble with rockwell 112A if you did not immediately recover a spin. I went on and read all 70 plus accident briefs and I would rather **** on a lancair IV than get in one

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, the IV-P is certainly known for unfriendly stall characteristics.. but the antidote for that is to not stall it and stay ahead of that plane. There are different levels of standards different planes require. Most pilots who inadvertently stall a plane do so when they're too low to recover anyway.. so it kind of makes the point about recovery moot.

 

[Tantalum]

The experimental world is thriving.
There are plenty of people out there with money seeking performance.

True.. I guess the venn diagram of these two groups is rather small.

 

[ateamer]

Since 1995 to date I found that over 70 Lancair IV's have crashed. This is horrible and if you read all the details you will soon learn that anyone who
thinks this is a good plane is joking themselves. The new Pipistrel Panthera has a video on youtube where they do a 10 rotation spin and recover. You can't even safely stall a lancair. IMO they should ground all the IV's. With that being said I understand the new Evolutions have a complete new wing and landing gear. So I won't include these new planes. I have not seen where one of the new ones have crashed. I think all homebuilts should have to go through stall and spin recovery. We had a lot of trouble with rockwell 112A if you did not immediately recover a spin. I went on and read all 70 plus accident briefs and I would rather **** on a lancair IV than get in one

The IV is not the plane for a pilot who thinks he can fly it like the 172 he rented for nine hours a year and got away with being off speed and five minutes behind the plane all the time. Aviators who stairstep their way up to it, train properly, are honest with themselves about their abilities, and never accept minimum standards will be safe.

People said the same about the MU-2 and R-22. But with training, their records are now fine.

It ain’t the arrow, it’s the indian.

 

[midwestpa24]

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, the IV-P is certainly known for unfriendly stall characteristics.. but the antidote for that is to not stall it and stay ahead of that plane. There are different levels of standards different planes require. Most pilots who inadvertently stall a plane do so when they're too low to recover anyway.. so it kind of makes the point about recovery moot.

That is true about a lot of higher performance airplanes. That is why the FAA is stressing stall avoidance more than stall recovery these days. You can't botch a recovery or cause a spin if you never stall the plane in the first place. Honestly if stalls were common in the big jet world, we would probably have a lot more accidents. The key is to not put yourself in that predicament. A stall is not usually the first link in the accident chain.

 

[wayne]

Looks cool, would love the turboprop, you can keep the side stick yoke.. 1million for a homebuilt no way..

The Turbine Legend might be cool, and it's supposed to be ~$700k. Supposedly Legend Aircraft is working on a pressurized version, but their website seems a bit stale.

I'm sure they are suffering from the same problem. Not a lot of builders in the $700k market, especially not for a tandem two-seater.