Why Lycoming engines cost so much

Hate to say it, but the NTSB report is completely irrelevant to the case, as the jury is not permitted to see it. It cannot be introduced in court by either side.

Why is that???
I think it is so they get full cooperation from all parties during the investigation. If the parties had to worry about what they said being used in a lawsuit, they would likely be less forthcoming.
 
Hate to say it, but the NTSB report is completely irrelevant to the case, as the jury is not permitted to see it. It cannot be introduced in court by either side.

They still remain the facts.

Just demonstrates that the tort system is not about the facts of the case.

Continental recently got dinged with a 15mil case in California (all future earnings stuff, no punitive damages, survivor is alive but brain damaged). The claim was that Continental didn't specifically prohibit the use of 'gasket maker' to seat cylinders. That may well be, it just had absolutely nothing to do with the accident in question. The NTSB had actually pulled that engine apart and through forensic metallurgy demonstrated that during recent maintenance someone had forgotten to tighten the case through-bolts :mad3: . No, it wasn't 'joe shade-tree' who got shaken down, it is the 'deep pocket', in this case the overhaul shop that did the work many years earlier and Conti who didn't say that 'gasket maker' can't be used on cylinders.
 
Well, you need to have a lot of processes in procedures in place that represent a more or less fixed cost regardless of number of units in production. More units spreads out the cost. Same goes for insurance.

That's my understanding, anyway.

Correct! The "overhead" of process management is 90% the same regardless of if you make one widget or a million.
 
Didn't your post say something about Lock Haven, PA initially ?

I don't think so. Maybe. None of my posts have a note saying they were edited. Dunno. No matter. :crazy:
 
Easier, perhaps. Cheaper? No way. I can call up Clinkenbeard and they'll make me just about everything I ask. $300,000 later, I'll have an engine that's STILL not certifiable to the FAA because they want to see your processes.

Problem is, the processes that make things cost effective for large volumes are ineffective for small volumes. However the processes you use for small volumes are very expensive.

Agree -- since there are two different considerations:
  • Number of defects
  • Cost per unit
 
Hello, all. I was a jury member on the case in question. I hope I'm not jumping into hostile territory, but I thought I'd offer to answer any questions. I can talk about anything except for quoting what other jurors said while in deliberation.

And the carb is bad -- in 1999??? And that was concealed for 30 years????
The accident carb was rebuilt in 1995 and had just over 520 miles on it. The original carb was replaced due to problems well before the accident.

The jury found in the first jury interragatory that there was an exception to GARA and I believe it was that very exception that applied.
Correct. We didn't know we were doing that at the time, but stating that we felt Lycoming mislead the FAA through lack of information was what got them past the GARA.

The jury also stated that they did not find Lycomings VP of engineering or their Pilot expert credible witnesses. None of us were there so we can't say one way or the other.

The over all number is big but the compensatory damages are just over 25% of the total award. The rest come from punitives, which I suspect were awarded because the jury felt the defendant concealed issues with the carberator.
Lycoming's witnesses were bad. I started to feel I was on a hidden camera show. They were just not prepared. Their lawyer took more time nitpicking the plaintiff's facts rather than building a case for pilot negligence.

You are correct on the punitive damages. Through the documents and testimony, it became pretty clear that Lycoming knew and just said 'meh'. Even once they filed a patten and began producing better components that would admittedly solve the issue, they continued to use to the defective ones.

So, what was supposed to be wrong with the carburetor?
The bowl screws were loose due to threading in the throttle body. The needle valve got stuck in the seat leading to a rich mixture and power loss.

It's not his fault that the defense wasn't up to the task, or that the jury seems to be stupid. That's none of his concern. I think your anger should be directed at the defense attorneys. If it's such an obvious case, how on earth did they lose it??????
I'm not gonna chalk this one up to the jury. I'm a fairly intelligent guy and weighing the evidence presented it was pretty clear that the engine had failed and hit the ground with virtually no power. It was not an aerodynamic stall as the defense claimed.

It felt like Pros vs Joes at times. The expert witness disparity was gigantic. The defense witnesses claimed to eye ball 40-50 inch pounds and feel it with their fingers. Their whole case on aerodynamic stall was that an 80 year old woman on her porch in the country said the airplane went "by" her house. The defense ran with "by" being 'nearly directly overhead' which created a very steep bank turn for the pilot.

Again, more than happy to answer any further questions you have on the case.
 
Are you sure you meant miles and not hours?

Either way that is an extremely low amount of usage on that device.

Oops. You are right. I messed up. There goes my claim of reasonable intelligence. :(


The needle valve had worn grooves and burs inside the seat and gotten stuck on the way up despite the low usage.
 
The bowl screws were loose due to threading in the throttle body. The needle valve got stuck in the seat leading to a rich mixture and power loss.

I'm not an A&P mechanic but I've worked on motorcycle engines quite a bit. Needle valves can wear the seats and cause a rich mixture. If AC carbs are anything like MC (slide type) carbs I don't see how the needle valve actuallty got stuck in the seat. Was the plantiff able to present the same carb problems from other aircraft? Are they sure it wasn't just 'this' carb that had the problem? How was 'threading' the problem with the float bowl? And how is the float bowl fastened to the carb?

Thanks for the insight.
 
I'm not an A&P mechanic but I've worked on motorcycle engines quite a bit. Needle valves can wear the seats and cause a rich mixture. If AC carbs are anything like MC (slide type) carbs I don't see how the needle valve actuallty got stuck in the seat. Was the plantiff able to present the same carb problems from other aircraft? Are they sure it wasn't just 'this' carb that had the problem? How was 'threading' the problem with the float bowl? And how is the float bowl fastened to the carb?

Thanks for the insight.

The needle valve dug a bur in the side of the seat. The bur was big enough/hit the right spot so the flow of fuel couldn't be stoppeed.

The plantiff had plenty of examples including service difficulty reports that were sent to Lycoming. Reports that their ex-VP repeatedly dismissed as useless. So it wasn't just this carb that displayed problems.

The float bowl is attached with six screws. The bowl and throttle body have a tendency to slightly misalign during initial assembly which results in threads in the throttle body holes. The holes are supposed to be smooth. So now the assembly doesn't get the right amount of torque.
 
Thanks for stopping by, my question would be this:

If you could see the NTSB report which concluded it was an aerodynamic stall and not the engine quitting which caused the crash would you have come to a different verdict?

Another witness stated that the airplane "took off towards the west, and did a u-turn back toward the airport." He saw that the airplane was flying low, but noted that the engine "sounded real strong." However, the airplane "just couldn't get any elevation...Just before going down [it] was banking left." When asked if he heard the engine operating until the time of impact, the witness answered that he believed so; that it was "roaring." He also added that the pilot "may have cut the engine, but I don't know for sure. The engine sounded like he was really accelerating."

In an interview with the Ohio State Police, the surviving passenger stated that after takeoff, the airplane continued straight ahead for about 1/2 mile, before beginning a left turn. At that time, the airplane was about "2 1/2 football fields high." He further stated that the airplane made only one left turn. "It was a left banking turn. The nose was up and we started to lose altitude slowly. We then started to lose altitude fast, and struck the ground." When asked if the airplane was "sliding (side slipping) to the left as it was banking and going down," the passenger replied, "yes." The passenger also noted that he could see that the flaps were up "straight" during the entire flight, that the pilot in the left seat was the only one who handled the flight controls, that the pilot did not appear to suffer any medical problems before or during the accident, and that he thought the engine was running throughout the flight, until impact.
 
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Hello, all. I was a jury member on the case in question. I hope I'm not jumping into hostile territory, but I thought I'd offer to answer any questions. I can talk about anything except for quoting what other jurors said while in deliberation.


The accident carb was rebuilt in 1995 and had just over 520 miles on it. The original carb was replaced due to problems well before the accident.


Correct. We didn't know we were doing that at the time, but stating that we felt Lycoming mislead the FAA through lack of information was what got them past the GARA.


Lycoming's witnesses were bad. I started to feel I was on a hidden camera show. They were just not prepared. Their lawyer took more time nitpicking the plaintiff's facts rather than building a case for pilot negligence.

You are correct on the punitive damages. Through the documents and testimony, it became pretty clear that Lycoming knew and just said 'meh'. Even once they filed a patten and began producing better components that would admittedly solve the issue, they continued to use to the defective ones.


The bowl screws were loose due to threading in the throttle body. The needle valve got stuck in the seat leading to a rich mixture and power loss.


I'm not gonna chalk this one up to the jury. I'm a fairly intelligent guy and weighing the evidence presented it was pretty clear that the engine had failed and hit the ground with virtually no power. It was not an aerodynamic stall as the defense claimed.

It felt like Pros vs Joes at times. The expert witness disparity was gigantic. The defense witnesses claimed to eye ball 40-50 inch pounds and feel it with their fingers. Their whole case on aerodynamic stall was that an 80 year old woman on her porch in the country said the airplane went "by" her house. The defense ran with "by" being 'nearly directly overhead' which created a very steep bank turn for the pilot.

Again, more than happy to answer any further questions you have on the case.

WOW. What are the chances of a juror on that trial stopping in to share his experience.??? I am all ears on this one.:yesnod::yesnod::yesnod:

Ben.
 
Thanks for stopping by, my question would be this:

If you could see the NTSB report which concluded it was an aerodynamic stall and not the engine quitting which caused the crash would you have come to a different verdict?

Although the NTSB report was not in evidence, it was talked about repeatedly. Lycoming called the Piper and Lycoming investigators that went to the scene and helped create the report as witnesses. So we were aware of what the report said in a summary format.

the Lycoming investigator was the person who eye balled torque if I recall correctly (they shredded our notes). They also never looked at the carb despite knowing they had reports of issues and there were fuel stains on the bowl.

The defense did attempt to make the case for the stall. However, the stall light showed no sign of having been on, the tach showed the engine at 500 rpm at the point of impact, and the prop was almost unharmed. One blade was bent and scratched.

I feel like the defense sort of threw in the towel at that point. They really didn't try to refute any of that other than the prop which they agreed was scratched and bent, but not to the degree of a full power crash.
 
WOW. What are the chances of a juror on that trial stopping in to share his experience.??? I am all ears on this one.:yesnod::yesnod::yesnod:

Ben.

I heard it was getting press, so I went googling. :)
 
Lol, nervous shuffling to make sure that the defense doesn't get ammunition to get this set aside based on a juror babbling.
 
Lol, nervous shuffling to make sure that the defense doesn't get ammunition to get this set aside based on a juror babbling.

When the trial ended, we were told we could talk about everything except quoting jurors during our decision process.

If someone smarter than I knows that this could jeopardize the verdict, please let me know.
 
When the trial ended, we were told we could talk about everything except quoting jurors during our decision process.

If someone smarter than I knows that this could jeopardize the verdict, please let me know.

I have been on exactly two juries in my 50+ years on the face of this earth.... Both times in Wyoming.... Both times we were instructed to not say anything while the trial was in progress. Both times we were told after the verdict we could talk about anything that went on except for quoting other jurors...

Is there different laws in other parts of the US. ??

Inquiring minds and all.

Ben
www.haaspowerair.com
 
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When the trial ended, we were told we could talk about everything except quoting jurors during our decision process.

If someone smarter than I knows that this could jeopardize the verdict, please let me know.


Case is certainly being appealed... might the appeal by influenced, board Esquires?
 
I have been on exactly two juries in my 50+ years on the face of this earth.... Both times in Wyoming.... Both times we were instructed to not say anything while the trial was in progress. Both times we were told after the verdict we could talk about anything that went on except for quoting other jurors...

Is there different laws in other parts of the US. ??

Inquiring minds and all.

Ben
www.haaspowerair.com

Thats the way it is in Pennsylvania and I believe most places.
 
Continental recently got dinged with a 15mil case in California (all future earnings stuff, no punitive damages, survivor is alive but brain damaged). The claim was that Continental didn't specifically prohibit the use of 'gasket maker' to seat cylinders.

Actually, the claim was that Continental expressly authorized the use of the sealant.
{Gasketmaker} just had absolutely nothing to do with the accident in question. The NTSB had actually pulled that engine apart and through forensic metallurgy demonstrated that during recent maintenance someone had forgotten to tighten the case through-bolts :mad3: .

Not true. The NTSB performed no analysis. The NTSB pretty much just took Teledyne Continental's word that it wasn't anything TCM did that contributed to the failure and that it therefore must have been the underinsured mechanic who screwed up. (Unfortunately, the NTSB frequently is influenced by the manufacturers in conducting its investigations.) At trial, however, even TCM admitted that it was the sealant that caused the engine to come apart.
No, it wasn't 'joe shade-tree' who got shaken down, it is the 'deep pocket', in this case the overhaul shop that did the work many years earlier and Conti who didn't say that 'gasket maker' can't be used on cylinders.
The work was not done many years earlier. In fact, it was done less than 200 hours earlier. And TCM actually authorized the mechanic to use the gasketmaker, and it was the gasketmaker that caused the engine to come apart.

Just to be clear: There was no dispute about the sealant being what caused the engine to come apart. It was proven at trial that the mechanic had properly tightened the nuts. (If he hadn't, the engine would never have lasted as long as it did.) It was also proven that TCM knew that its manuals were at best confusing, and that it knew other TCM engines had come apart because mechanics were mistakenly believing it was OK to apply gasketmaker when in fact it was a very bad idea. TCM could have easily fixed its manuals, but it just never bothered to do so. Instead, TCM corrected its in-house documentation only. As a result, an innocent passenger was rendered severely brain damaged and his family was destroyed.

TCM caused the accident. As a result, it was required to compensate the passenger for the round-the-clock care he will need for the rest of his life. Not really sure why you would think this case to be an example of where the tort system failed.

-Mike Danko
www.aviationlawmonitor.com
 
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Two newcomers in one thread.
Welcome, PhillyJuror and MDanko. Always good to have a new viewpoint.
 
Two newcomers in one thread.
Welcome, PhillyJuror and MDanko. Always good to have a new viewpoint.

Agreed.

Also, challenging to one's long-held presumptions.
 
I am still trying to figure out why the venue for this case was Philadelphia, PA? Was one of the Plaintiff's from there? Pottstown is not Philadelphia, btw.
 
Not true. The NTSB performed no analysis.

Mh, wrong.

The engine was a Continental IO-550-CcB, serial number 676637. Examination of the engine logbook revealed that the engine was overhauled on July 15, 1999, and installed into N299X on August 11, 1999. The last annual inspection was performed on June 21, 2004, at an engine total time since maintenance overhaul (TTSMO) of 1,463.5 hours. The engine logbook entry for the annual inspection included the following entry: "Four cylinders removed (#2, 4, 5 & 6) for overhaul. Installed 4 each customer supplied cylinders, repaired by Gil's Engines, reassembled engine, baffles, intakes, exhaust, ect. torqued cylinder, finished engine. Engine run up and ops checked okay." The TTSMO on the engine at the time of the accident was 1,653.0 hours.

Examination of the engine revealed a 3-inch by 7-inch hole in the top of the crankcase that extended past the crankcase parting line and into the engine data plate pad that was aligned with the connecting rod above the number 4-cylinder position. The number 4 cylinder and piston were not present on the engine. The number 4 connecting rod and cylinder attaching hardware were recovered from the inside bottom of the engine cowling. Examination of the number 4 cylinder mounting pad revealed that the bottom two cylinder hold down studs at the 5 o'clock and 7 o'clock positions were fractured about mid thread line, extending above the case 0.369 and 0.406 inches, respectively. The cylinder hold down studs at the 2 and 3 o'clock (seventh stud) position were intact with very little damage. The 4 o'clock stud had slight smearing of its last three threads. The 10 and 8 o'clock through bolts were fractured flush with the engine case. The 9 o'clock seventh stud was not present, but the number 2 cylinder base flange on the right side had rub marks consistent with fretting adjacent to the seventh stud location. There was dark discoloration of the cylinder pad surface consistent with fretting at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions.

Fastener items collected from the inside the engine cowling were: the fractured ends of both number 4 cylinder bottom cylinder studs with flat bottomed nuts present; one complete top cylinder stud without nut; both number 2 and 3 cylinders left seventh stud plates; the fractured end of the number 3 bottom through bolt with nut present; the left number 3 seventh stud with conical nut present and aluminum metal in the crankcase end threads; one 3/8-inch cylinder hold down nut (flat bottom flange); and one 5/16 inch bolt with aluminum present in its threads. Both 7th stud plates recovered exhibited rub marks consistent with fretting on both faces.

The number 2 cylinder hold down base flange clamp was not present on the 7th stud, and the stud threads contained dirt and grease.

The nut on the number 5 cylinder lower through bolt was not present.



The NTSB pretty much just took Teledyne Continental's word that it wasn't anything TCM did that contributed to the failure and that it therefore must have been the underinsured mechanic who screwed up.

(Unfortunately, the NTSB frequently is influenced by the manufacturers in conducting its investigations.)
Yeah, the big conspiracy.

Just to be clear: There was no dispute about the sealant being what caused the engine to come apart. It was proven at trial that the mechanic had properly tightened the nuts. (If he hadn't, the engine would never have lasted as long as it did.)
You mean the plaintiffs paid shills managed to convince a jury of non-experts of their side of the story.

Gasket maker also removed the other missing bolts and nuts from the #5 and #2 cylinders I guess......
 
Mh, wrong.

The engine was a Continental IO-550-CcB, serial number 676637. Examination of the engine logbook revealed that the engine was overhauled on July 15, 1999, and installed into N299X on August 11, 1999. The last annual inspection was performed on June 21, 2004, at an engine total time since maintenance overhaul (TTSMO) of 1,463.5 hours. The engine logbook entry for the annual inspection included the following entry: "Four cylinders removed (#2, 4, 5 & 6) for overhaul. Installed 4 each customer supplied cylinders, repaired by Gil's Engines, reassembled engine, baffles, intakes, exhaust, ect. torqued cylinder, finished engine. Engine run up and ops checked okay." The TTSMO on the engine at the time of the accident was 1,653.0 hours.

Examination of the engine revealed a 3-inch by 7-inch hole in the top of the crankcase that extended past the crankcase parting line and into the engine data plate pad that was aligned with the connecting rod above the number 4-cylinder position. The number 4 cylinder and piston were not present on the engine. The number 4 connecting rod and cylinder attaching hardware were recovered from the inside bottom of the engine cowling. Examination of the number 4 cylinder mounting pad revealed that the bottom two cylinder hold down studs at the 5 o'clock and 7 o'clock positions were fractured about mid thread line, extending above the case 0.369 and 0.406 inches, respectively. The cylinder hold down studs at the 2 and 3 o'clock (seventh stud) position were intact with very little damage. The 4 o'clock stud had slight smearing of its last three threads. The 10 and 8 o'clock through bolts were fractured flush with the engine case. The 9 o'clock seventh stud was not present, but the number 2 cylinder base flange on the right side had rub marks consistent with fretting adjacent to the seventh stud location. There was dark discoloration of the cylinder pad surface consistent with fretting at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions.

Fastener items collected from the inside the engine cowling were: the fractured ends of both number 4 cylinder bottom cylinder studs with flat bottomed nuts present; one complete top cylinder stud without nut; both number 2 and 3 cylinders left seventh stud plates; the fractured end of the number 3 bottom through bolt with nut present; the left number 3 seventh stud with conical nut present and aluminum metal in the crankcase end threads; one 3/8-inch cylinder hold down nut (flat bottom flange); and one 5/16 inch bolt with aluminum present in its threads. Both 7th stud plates recovered exhibited rub marks consistent with fretting on both faces.

The number 2 cylinder hold down base flange clamp was not present on the 7th stud, and the stud threads contained dirt and grease.

The nut on the number 5 cylinder lower through bolt was not present.


Yeah, the big conspiracy.

You mean the plaintiffs paid shills managed to convince a jury of non-experts of their side of the story.

Gasket maker also removed the other missing bolts and nuts from the #5 and #2 cylinders I guess......

Quit ruining a wonderful fairytale spun theory put forth by the plaintiffs attorneys and bought by some uneducated jurors by introducing true facts.... :mad2::mad2::mad3:

On the humanity..:yesnod::yesnod:

If it means anything, I have personally witnessed some gasket maker unscrew the top on the container it was stored in, ooze out, sneak over to a parked airplane, undu the cowl and loosen cylinder base nuts. All under the cover of darkness... That is some pretty tricky stuff.:rofl::rofl:

Ok. I 'might' have been visited by Dr Timothy Leary at the time but I think it really happened.:skeptical::skeptical::skeptical:

Ben (not buying the gasketmaker BS) Haas
www.haaspowerair.com
 
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Yeah, the big conspiracy.
Nope, not a conspiracy.
The NTSB is overloaded and underfunded. As a matter of policy, it asks for and relies on the manufacturer's technical expertise when it is investigating an accident. The NTSB calls this method of investigating the “party system.” This necessarily presents a conflict of interest, since it is the manufactuer’s product that may have caused the accident.

The NTSB concedes the conflict, but continues with the practice anyway. Though not a "conspiracy," it is an important reality. The “party system” means that NTSB reports generally favor the manufacturers. That is why they are of limited value and why juries often come to conclusions that are different from the NTSB's. It is not because juries are “gullible” or “stupid”, as many suggest. It is because juries see both sides of the story.
You mean the plaintiffs paid shills managed to convince a jury of non-experts of their side of the story.
I don’t mean that. I mean that before trial, TCM signed a document admitting, under oath, that its sealant (“GasketMaker”) had caused the bolts to lose their pre-load and the engine to come apart in flight. That document was read to the jury. Then, at trial, TCM’s head of engineering and Vice President, John Barton, explained to the jury exactly why the sealant will cause nuts to come off, regardless of how tightly they are installed. Finally, Barton testified that TCM had seen other engines come apart for the same reason.

Of course, TCM disclosed none of that to the NTSB. The NTSB’s investigation simply wasn’t as thorough as plaintiff’s. The NTSB never asked TCM the right questions.

Gasket maker also removed the other missing bolts and nuts from the #5 and #2 cylinders I guess......
Yes, GasketMaker did also cause the other bolts to come loose. That was according to TCM's engineering department, according to John Barton, according to TCM’ s paid experts, and according to plaintiff’s paid experts. No dispute.

Mh, wrong.

The engine was a Continental IO-550-CcB, serial number 676637. Examination of the engine logbook revealed that the engine was overhauled on July 15, 1999, and installed into N299X on August 11, 1999. The last annual inspection was performed on June 21, 2004, at an engine total time since maintenance overhaul (TTSMO) of 1,463.5 hours. The engine logbook entry for the annual inspection included the following entry: "Four cylinders removed (#2, 4, 5 & 6) for overhaul. Installed 4 each customer supplied cylinders, repaired by Gil's Engines, reassembled engine, baffles, intakes, exhaust, ect. torqued cylinder, finished engine. Engine run up and ops checked okay." The TTSMO on the engine at the time of the accident was 1,653.0 hours.

Examination of the engine revealed a 3-inch by 7-inch hole in the top of the crankcase that extended past the crankcase parting line and into the engine data plate pad that was aligned with the connecting rod above the number 4-cylinder position. The number 4 cylinder and piston were not present on the engine. The number 4 connecting rod and cylinder attaching hardware were recovered from the inside bottom of the engine cowling. Examination of the number 4 cylinder mounting pad revealed that the bottom two cylinder hold down studs at the 5 o'clock and 7 o'clock positions were fractured about mid thread line, extending above the case 0.369 and 0.406 inches, respectively. The cylinder hold down studs at the 2 and 3 o'clock (seventh stud) position were intact with very little damage. The 4 o'clock stud had slight smearing of its last three threads. The 10 and 8 o'clock through bolts were fractured flush with the engine case. The 9 o'clock seventh stud was not present, but the number 2 cylinder base flange on the right side had rub marks consistent with fretting adjacent to the seventh stud location. There was dark discoloration of the cylinder pad surface consistent with fretting at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions.

Fastener items collected from the inside the engine cowling were: the fractured ends of both number 4 cylinder bottom cylinder studs with flat bottomed nuts present; one complete top cylinder stud without nut; both number 2 and 3 cylinders left seventh stud plates; the fractured end of the number 3 bottom through bolt with nut present; the left number 3 seventh stud with conical nut present and aluminum metal in the crankcase end threads; one 3/8-inch cylinder hold down nut (flat bottom flange); and one 5/16 inch bolt with aluminum present in its threads. Both 7th stud plates recovered exhibited rub marks consistent with fretting on both faces.

The number 2 cylinder hold down base flange clamp was not present on the 7th stud, and the stud threads contained dirt and grease.

The nut on the number 5 cylinder lower through bolt was not present.
The long quote from the NTSB report does not indicate the “forensic metallurgical analysis” your earlier post alluded to. Nor is it otherwise inconsistent with anything in my post. The NTSB simply looked at the wreck, noted that nuts had spun off, and, in conjunction with TCM (the plaintiff’s experts are not allowed to participate in the investigation) concluded that they had not been properly tightened.

The NTSB did not tear down the engine. Nor does the NTSB report suggest that it did. In fact, the engine was not torn down until after the NTSB completed its report and the lawsuit began. Had the NTSB torn down the engine, it might have noted the presence of the sealant on the cylinder base flanges. An interesting side note: when the NTSB and TCM looked at the engine during the NTSB investigation, TCM noticed the sealant on the crankcase mating surface for the missing cylinder but said nothing about it to the NTSB.

As pilots, we often condemn a jury verdict against a manufacturer as the result of a legal system gone bad. Especially when the verdict seems inconsistent with the NTSB report. There’s almost always more to the story. Sometimes, we should be questioning the NTSB, not the jury.

What happened in this case, briefly:

The engine's cylinder base hold-down nuts came off because sealant found its way between the mating surfaces of the cylinders and crankcase. The mechanic who replaced the cylinders less than 200 hours earlier had not applied sealant to those surfaces. He did, however, apply the sealant to the cylinder-base oil seals in an effort to stop leaks at the cylinder base. He did this at the suggestion of a TCM field rep.

Before actually applying the sealant, he and another mechanic checked the manuals. The manuals authorized the use of the sealant on “all uncoated oil seals” which, they determined, included the cylinder base oil seals.

Unfortunately, when the engine was torqued up, the sealant from the oil seals was squeezed off and flowed to between the mating surfaces. That, over time, caused the loss of pre-load (according to TCM), caused the nuts to lose their torque and spin off. That caused the loss of the cylinder.

TCM argued that when it authorized the use of the sealant on "all uncoated oil seals”, it did not mean cylinder base oil seals. It argued that those oil seals are not really "oil seals". But, regardless, TCM knew other mechanics were making the same "mistake" as this one did, and that other Teledyne engines were coming apart because of it. Yet it never bothered to change its manuals to say something like "GasketMaker may be used on all uncoated oil seals, except cylinder base oil seals.” It made the changes only internally, warning against the practice of applying GasketMaker to cylinder base oil seals during in-house training.

Barton testified that changing the manuals would have required virtually no cost or effort. And, of course, it would have prevented this accident.

Note: none of this will be found in the NTSB report, which was completed well before the trial of the case began.

Mike Danko
www.aviationlawmonitor.com
 
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Quit ruining a wonderful fairytale spun theory put forth by the plaintiffs attorneys and bought by some uneducated jurors by introducing true facts.... :mad2::mad2::mad3:

On the humanity..:yesnod::yesnod:

If it means anything, I have personally witnessed some gasket maker unscrew the top on the container is was stored in, ooze out, sneak over to a parked airplane, undu the cowl and loosen cylinder base nuts. All under the cover of darkness... That is some pretty tricky stuff.:rofl::rofl:

Ok. I 'might' have been visited by Dr Timothy Leary at the time but I think it really happened.:skeptical::skeptical::skeptical:

Ben (not buying the gasketmaker BS) Haas
www.haaspowerair.com
Ben, no disrespect intended, but if you do not believe that the presence of GasketMaker in a "stack-up" can cause an assembly to lose its preload and nuts to spin off an engine, then you need to give Teledyne Continental Motors a call right away.

-Mike Danko
www.aviationlawmonitor.com
 
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Re: Why Lycoming engines cost so much
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdFred
Thanks for stopping by, my question would be this:

If you could see the NTSB report which concluded it was an aerodynamic stall and not the engine quitting which caused the crash would you have come to a different verdict?


Although the NTSB report was not in evidence, it was talked about repeatedly. Lycoming called the Piper and Lycoming investigators that went to the scene and helped create the report as witnesses. So we were aware of what the report said in a summary format.

the Lycoming investigator was the person who eye balled torque if I recall correctly (they shredded our notes). They also never looked at the carb despite knowing they had reports of issues and there were fuel stains on the bowl.

The defense did attempt to make the case for the stall. However, the stall light showed no sign of having been on, the tach showed the engine at 500 rpm at the point of impact, and the prop was almost unharmed. One blade was bent and scratched.

Was not there yet, but on crashing or during an emergency landing I would likely cut the power( idle RPM 550 rpm on mine) to lessen the impact. Did the investigators find the throttle fire walled or at idle?
 
Sir. can you expand on the complete details of the "stack up" scenerio.

ie, How many layers were sandwiched ?

Did Teledyne strictly forbid this practice ?

Was it written anywhere in the service manual not to do that ?

I agree someone can stack up numerous gaskets layered with a sealing compound and that can cause incomplete compression of that joint so I would really like to read the report that clearly spells out what happened in this particular case... Can you provide me with a link to those documents.

Thanks in advance sir.

Ben.
 
Sir. can you expand on the complete details of the "stack up" scenerio.
"Stack up" refers to all the flanges, washers, spacers and other components fitted between the threaded fastener's first bearing surface and the nut that retains them.
ie, How many layers were sandwiched ?
As I recall, the only component in the cylinder hold-down stud's stack-up is the cylinder base flange. There are more components involved in the through-bolt stack up (the crankcase halves and the silk thread between them come to mind), but that stack up is less critical.

When the cylinder base nuts are torqued, the stud stretches a tiny amount. Once stretched even that tiny amount, the stud acts as a powerful spring that holds the cylinder on the crankcase despite the tremendous side-to-side movement the cylinder experiences during normal engine operation.

Let's say that when the hold-down nut is properly torqued, it results in the stud being stretched by 1/1000 of an inch (just for illustration). It is that stretch that squeezes the parts together with thousands of pounds of force. (The squeezing force is called pre-load.) Furthermore, the nut can't rotate off the fastener because of the tremendous torque that would be required to move the nut.

Now let's say that in the stack up is a washer that is 1/1000 of an inch thick. Let's imagine that during engine operation the washer splits and somehow is lost from the stack up. The stud will instantly lose all its stretch. The assembly's pre-load will instantly disappear. The nut, though it hasn't yet moved on the fastener, will now only be finger-tight. The nut will vibrate off in seconds and the engine will fail.

TCM warns that there should be no paint on the top of the cylinder base flange on the hold-down nut's bearing surface. The reason is that the paint will act as a very fine washer in the stack up. It will resist the pre-load forces as the nut is torqued down. Over time, however, the tremendous forces imparted by the stud stretch and the engine operation will cause the paint to degrade and disintegrate. The stud will lose its stretch. Once that happens, the nut will lose its torque and vibrate off. Engine failure will result.

TCM also expressly warns that there should be nothing on the mating surfaces of the cylinder base and the crank case. The reason? Whatever you put there may hold up through the torquing process. However, during engine operation, it will disintegrate or degrade. Just like when a washer is lost from the stack up, once the "foreign" material on the mating surfaces degrades, it will cause the studs to lose their stretch.

GasketMaker is an interesting substance. It can withstand tremendous loads and thus will bear up against the studs being stretched. But when exposed to engine operating temperatures, the GasketMaker degrades after about 200 hours. Thus, GasketMaker must not to be applied to the cylinder-to-crankcase mating surfaces.

Teledyne's manuals warn that the mechanic should apply nothing to the cylinder-to-crankcase mating surfaces. The manuals do, however, allow GasketMaker to be applied to the cylinder base oil seals. Problem: no matter how careful you are, when you torque up the engine, some GasketMaker is going to get squeezed off the seals and onto the mating surfaces.

A layer of GasketMaker less than 1/4 the thickness of a piece of paper someplace on the mating surface is enough to cause the engine to come apart.

The total volume of goop necessary to cause havoc is less than the size of a pea. Experts testified it was less than 1/4 of the volume of a penny.
Did Teledyne strictly forbid this practice ?
No. That was the problem. Instead of forbidding the practice, its manuals authorized applying GasketMaker to "all uncoated oil seals." The cylinder base O-Ring is an uncoated oil seal.
Was it written anywhere in the service manual not to do that ?
No. It was written that nothing should be on the mating surfaces. But you can't tell that sealant has migrated from the oil seal to the mating surfaces since the surfaces, once torqued up, are not visible.
I agree someone can stack up numerous gaskets layered with a sealing compound and that can cause incomplete compression of that joint so I would really like to read the report that clearly spells out what happened in this particular case... Can you provide me with a link to those documents.
There is no "report." There is recorded testimony of various engineers but it isn't on line. If you are interested I can perhaps send you hard copies of the transcripts. But you seem to get that stacking up numerous gaskets can cause imcomplete compression. That's because the gaskets "give" over time. Some joints are engineered to allow for that. The cylinder-to-crankcase joint is not. That's because the cylinder hold-down studs are very short and stretch only the tiniest amount. Unlike the through bolts, which are longer and can be stretched further, the studs cannot accomodate any change in the thickness of the components in the stackup without losing pre-load.

Hope this is helpful. But my real point is that there is often more to a jury verdict than meets the eye. When we first hear about the verdict, we think it's BS. "Clever plaintiff's lawyer fooled a stupid jury." But if we were on the jury for the six weeks and saw all the evidence, we might have reached the same conclusion that the jury did. Even though the conclusion was totally different from the NTSB's.

Possibly.

Mike Danko
www.aviationlawmonitor.com
 
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