Why Lycoming engines cost so much

i always thought it was so Ted could keep the Aztec running :)
 
I thought this would be covered under GARA, but I'm beginning to think nothing is and we'll wind up again seeing the demise of GA manufacturing, this time permanently.

The bright side is my Cherokee will be worth that much more.
 
A plane built in 1968?

And the carb is bad -- in 1999??? And that was concealed for 30 years????:mad2:

Unbelievable.
 
steingar said:
I thought this would be covered under GARA, but I'm beginning to think nothing is and we'll wind up again seeing the demise of GA manufacturing, this time permanently.

The bright side is my Cherokee will be worth that much more.
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my understandings is that GARA basically shifted the liability from airframe manufacturers and onto component manufacturers and mechanics.
 
steingar said:
I thought this would be covered under GARA, but I'm beginning to think nothing is and we'll wind up again seeing the demise of GA manufacturing, this time permanently.

The bright side is my Cherokee will be worth that much more.
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I'm becoming more convinced that GARA was a ploy to shift the liability burden onto owners, maintainers, AND Manufacturers -- thus increasing total insurance revenues.

Or maybe not...
 
GRRRRR It's the handiwork of our friend Arthur W.

The reality distortion field around him must be extremely powerful. Just check out this little gem ...
 
Be carefull what you say about the Plaintiff's lawyer.
 
Anthony said:
Hopefully the settlement will be reduced on appeal. I have not heard of any faulty carb issues. Has anyone else?

Another example of why lawyers LOVE Philly juries.

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20100407_Phila__jury_awards__89_million_in_plane_crash.html
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Have you been in front of a Philadelphia jury recently? Beleive me Defense Awards are much more common than you would think. You can't take one case every few years and make it an example.

steingar said:
I thought this would be covered under GARA, but I'm beginning to think nothing is and we'll wind up again seeing the demise of GA manufacturing, this time permanently.

The bright side is my Cherokee will be worth that much more.
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This case was appealed back and forth several times regarding GARA. There are some exceptions to GARA including if a manufacturerwillfully and materially misrepresents information to the FAA. I think this was one of the claims in the case.

The jury found in the first jury interragatory that there was an exception to GARA and I believe it was that very exception that applied.
flyersfan31 said:
A plane built in 1968?

And the carb is bad -- in 1999??? And that was concealed for 30 years????:mad2:

Unbelievable.
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No thats not what they said they said that the defect in that particular carberator was known to Avco. There was no mention of how long that particluar carberator was in that plane.

The jury also stated that they did not find Lycomings VP of engineering or their Pilot expert credible witnesses. None of us were there so we can't say one way or the other.

The over all number is big but the compensatory damages are just over 25% of the total award. The rest come from punitives, which I suspect were awarded because the jury felt the defendant concealed issues with the carberator.

Also FIWI Plaintiff offered to settle this case for $75,000 up through and including trial. The defense apparently rejected that claim. I suspect had the matter been settled for 75K then it wouldn't have hit the news.

*** Note I AM NOT taking a position on the case. Just pointing out you can't make assumptions from the press reports.***
 
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AdamZ said:
Also FIWI Plaintiff offered to settle this case for $75,000 up through and including trial. The defense apparently rejected that claim. I suspect had the matter been settled for 75K then it wouldn't have hit the news.
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Yikes! Did Lyc. actually use an attorney for this or some guy who slept at a Holiday Inn last night?
 
flyersfan31 said:
Since when??????:rofl::rofl::rofl:
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Since I'm not being paid too:D:D. Now do I need to call your big brother

Ted DuPuis said:
My Aztec and I are moving to Texas and sleeping on Spike's couch (well, maybe the Aztec will stay at the airport) when it secedes.
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Yeah that will get you no where fast Ted. Texas is the land of Agressive PI attorneys, Just ask Spike
 
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AdamZ said:
No thats not what they said they said that the defect in that particular carberator was known to Avco. There was no mention of how long that particluar carberator was in that plane.
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So, what was supposed to be wrong with the carburetor?
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
So, what was supposed to be wrong with the carburetor?
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Geoff, I don't know. Its what the allegations were and apparently the jury agreed 10-1 that there was a defect and that it was hidden or not revealed.

The real problem with commenting on Court cases is that the Press summarizes and often does so incorrectly sort of like ohhhh I dunno Aviation Accidents.

It is almost impossible to comment on many aspects of any case without either having been in the Courtroom or having read the transcript. Even then the transcript can't convey a lot of what goes on in Court. You can have an expert that comes off as a real cheese ball who is sloppy in his work and testimony but that just does not comeout in a transcript.
 
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The whole thing is strange. Lycoming doesn't make carburetors. Marvel Schebler/Precision Airmotive would be the target for a defective Cherokee carb, and those carbs have had several ADs against them. Nobody tries to hide carb defects, least of all the manufacturer, since they're usually the one going to the FAA to get an AD issued.

I suspect plain old carb ice, and the jury maybe figured that the carb was defective because it iced up. Or maybe an AD wasn't complied with. In either case the carb manufacturer wouldn't be at fault.

Something stinks here.


Dan
 
Anthony said:
No doubt, but he has successfully sued other websites (Avweb) AND WON. I just wanted posters to be aware of the potential consequences.
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I would not quite say 'he won'. With the Wolk v AvWeb/Williams et. al. didn't they drop the suit in exchange for public apologies?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Well, at a certain point it just doesn't become feasible to produce the parts. As it is, you call up a corporation and say you want them to do a production run and the quantity is 1000/year they laugh at you. Sure, you can find casting houses that will make you one-offs of everything (cylinders, etc.) that the FAA would never let you use on your certified plane.

Right now prices are high. Just keep on watching...
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Right -- I'm at the point with the Lycoming O-145 -- there are few parts available.

Yet the FAA does allow/permit equivalents for certain parts on antique aircraft.

My point is that GARA was supposed to lead to a renassiance of GA. Instead, it shifted the liability burden to owners/operators, suppliers, and maintainers without giving the manufacturers a get outta jail free.
 
FWIW, if the allegation is true, and Lycoming did, in fact, cover up information about a faulty carbuerator, then yes, they should pay through the nose if it contributed to the accident.

I'd like to see the details that were covered up...
 
Folks,

A reminder that the Rules of Conduct here at PoA specifically prohibit personal attacks against others.

Rules of Conduct said:
Personal attacks are prohibited. This specifically means any text/post that is blatantly attacking another person on or off the forum, especially in a personal way.
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If you're going to take personal shots at others, do it on some other forum, not here. The MC may delete posts or threads deemed to be personal attacks without prior notice.... I would suggest that the participants in this thread take that to heart and delete anything that could be a personal attack so we don't have to.

You have been warned.
 
My point of the post was to show that there are other costs beyond production costs that go into the price of a new aircraft engine. It was not to say the award was just or unjust, although the history of tort awards by Philadelphia juries has been suspect and biased against the corporation.

Remember folks, no Plaintiff, no Plaintiff's lawyer.

I've got over 1,400 hours on my Lycoming O-360 A4K. While it has had MUCH maintenance to keep it in top shape, at some point in the not too distant future I will either have to overhual it or purchase a new one. Issues like these just add to that cost and it really hits home when I get out the checkbook for airplane expenses. You renters are not exempt either. All these costs go into the hourly rate you pay, however, you can just not rent a plane and the cost goes away.
 
ScottM said:
I would not quite say 'he won'. With the Wolk v AvWeb/Williams et. al. didn't they drop the suit in exchange for public apologies?
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He won in the sense of successfully stifling criticism of his person and handiwork.
 
AdamZ said:
He also happens to represent the family of the folks in the Lance Killed in the Hudson River last summer when the Helo rose into it. And the folks on the helo also have their own attorneys I'm sure. Do you think they are all sucking the lifes blood from GA?
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I hear you, squire, and that's a fair comment, but if he sues Piper for a faulty product because a Lance doesn't have unlimited visibility, or Bendix/King because it's possible to input the wrong radio freq, I may have to revisit my opinion of Mr. Wolk. :)
 
AdamZ said:
He also happens to represent the family of the folks in the Lance Killed in the Hudson River last summer when the Helo rose into it. And the folks on the helo also have their own attorneys I'm sure. Do you think they are all sucking the lifes blood from GA?
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Based on the historical record, he will somehow manage to tie the accident to an overly rich mixture caused by a float carburetor and low-lead gasoline, try the case in rural Mississippi (because after all, Lycoming powered aircraft DO fly in the airspace over the state) and purchase a verdict against Avfuel and Lycoming for 3billion $$.
 
Please explain the reference to "rural Mississippi"...

weilke said:
Based on the historical record, he will somehow manage to tie the accident to an overly rich mixture caused by a float carburetor and low-lead gasoline, try the case in rural Mississippi (because after all, Lycoming powered aircraft DO fly in the airspace over the state) and purchase a verdict against Avfuel and Lycoming for 3billion $$.
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Steve said:
Please explain the reference to "rural Mississippi"...
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Crazy product liability lawsuits either get filed in philadelphia,PA or somewhere in MS. In both states, the plaintiff has the choice of venue where to file and doesn't have to contend with pesky issues as whether there is actually a nexus between the product and the location of the suit. The courts collect hefty fees on those large suits and will do everything to bring those $$s into town.

Nothing against your state (just its corrupt judiciary) ;) .
 
weilke said:
Crazy product liability lawsuits either get filed in philadelphia,PA or somewhere in MS. In both states, the plaintiff has the choice of venue where to file and doesn't have to contend with pesky issues as whether there is actually a nexus between the product and the location of the suit. The courts collect hefty fees on those large suits and will do everything to bring those $$s into town.

Nothing against your state (just its corrupt judiciary) ;) .
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Can't speak to Mississippi but that is inaccurate with regard to Pennsylvania.
 
AdamZ said:
Can't speak to Mississippi but that is inaccurate with regard to Pennsylvania.
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Was the PA32 that crashed in Ohio purchased in Philadelphia, PA ?
 
AdamZ said:
Can't speak to Mississippi but that is inaccurate with regard to Pennsylvania.
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Can you tell us why the venue was Philadelphia, PA?
 
JeffDG said:
Hate to say it, but the NTSB report is completely irrelevant to the case, as the jury is not permitted to see it. It cannot be introduced in court by either side.
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Why is that???
 
weilke said:
The one this 89mil verdict was hitched to.
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Got myself confused.:redface:

Well, seeings how the family was from my neck of the woods, actually my town, in suburban Philadelphia, I can see at least a tangential relationship to Philly.

AFA Mr. Wolk (and I can't believe I'm going to defend him) he is doing his job. He presents the strongest case for his clients. That's why lawyers are referred to as advocates. His job is to construct a plausible case that presents the arguments of his clients in the best possible light.

It's not his fault that the defense wasn't up to the task, or that the jury seems to be stupid. That's none of his concern. I think your anger should be directed at the defense attorneys. If it's such an obvious case, how on earth did they lose it??????
 
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