Why is the Lancair IV-P so dangerous?

Check out the new Mooney Ultras. They have two doors, much improved ergonomics, safe handling and are the fastest certified single engine piston planes made. Two models: Ovation and Acclaim, the latter has twin turbos. But like all planes, max speed is in the flight levels; the Acclaim hits 242 knots at 25,000 with an oxygen mask. Both should top 200 knots in the mid teens with reasonable fuel burn. And they won't bite you, they are safe with predictable handling.

Happy shopping! Sorry I don't have a reference for a NW Mooney rep, but it should be on their website.
 
I think Cirrus has gotten its read in the market right. Evidence is that ergonomics matter, and their plane has the right formula for today’s consumer. The right plane for OPs mission, one that does everything he wants to, is the Vision Jet. There’s the issue with money, but that’s always an issue with aviation, isn’t it?

The lower risk, logical progression here, I suggest, is to start in an SR22 t or NA - depending on geography, and then moving up to the Jet. Money aside, of course.
 
Jorge Borbolla said:
I think Cirrus has gotten its read in the market right. Evidence is that ergonomics matter, and their plane has the right formula for today’s consumer. The right plane for OPs mission, one that does everything he wants to, is the Vision Jet. There’s the issue with money, but that’s always an issue with aviation, isn’t it?

The lower risk, logical progression here, I suggest, is to start in an SR22 t or NA - depending on geography, and then moving up to the Jet. Money aside, of course.
Click to expand...

Disregarding dollars for a moment.. the vision jet is coastal... I live in the Rockies.. and at elevation in the summer.. that vision jet can't compete with a turbo prop.. it's a physics thing... No small jet can do as well as a turbo prop at hot elevation ... now from San Diego to Seattle .. sure.. Boston to Miami.. yeah... I sat in the vision jet.. Cirrus clearly thinks humas first.. their ergonomics are second to none.. but their capabilities come second.. they are built for the wife to approve the purchase.. and they are smart for it...

Unfortunately, from my perspective no one is competing against Cirrus and Cirrus has priced their un pressurized piston so high... That there doesn't seem to be a place for a turbo prop... and they can never lower the price of the piston or they would screw the owners.. they are the apple of airplanes.. $1000 cell phones.. they set the mark and now every plane in the class costs more because of the comparitive analysis....you can have comfort or capability.. just not both... Hahah

I'll check out the Mooney, rumor has it they are very small inside.. but I am willing to look..

Edit: after writing the above I reviewed the Mooney data/video . You can't have tks and air conditioning .. and not be aneorexic...My point exactly... So I just pass close to $1m and I don't have a basic comfort and safety... Insane.. I'll pass
 
Last edited:
Davidl13 said:
All the ones I have seen have some sort of de-icing added..tks thermawing or this other one I don't remember the name.. it's electronic and makes the wing expand a bit .. but it's not a boot
Click to expand...

But as an experimental, it is still not a FIKI airplane. If a builder decided to experiment and add something so be it.
 
Davidl13 said:
Disregarding dollars for a moment.. the vision jet is coastal... I live in the Rockies.. and at elevation in the summer.. that vision jet can't compete with a turbo prop.. it's a physics thing... No small jet can do as well as a turbo prop at hot elevation ... now from San Diego to Seattle .. sure.. Boston to Miami.. yeah... I sat in the vision jet.. Cirrus clearly thinks humas first.. their ergonomics are second to none.. but their capabilities come second.. they are built for the wife to approve the purchase.. and they are smart for it...

Unfortunately, from my perspective no one is competing against Cirrus and Cirrus has priced their un pressurized piston so high... That there doesn't seem to be a place for a turbo prop... and they can never lower the price of the piston or they would screw the owners.. they are the apple of airplanes.. $1000 cell phones.. they set the mark and now every plane in the class costs more because of the comparitive analysis....you can have comfort or capability.. just not both... Hahah

I'll check out the Mooney, rumor has it they are very small inside.. but I am willing to look..

Edit: after writing the above I reviewed the Mooney data/video . You can't have tks and air conditioning .. and not be aneorexic...My point exactly... So I just pass close to $1m and I don't have a basic comfort and safety... Insane.. I'll pass
Click to expand...

Good cost comparison! I may copy that . . . .

AC on a plane is generally only needed when getting inside after being parked on the ramp in the summer without a canopy cover. I fly in the hot, humid Southeast and generally run cabin heat above about 6000 msl year round. Two weeks ago, temps were mid-90s but 59°F at 8500.
 
The day someone takes a Chevy suburban cabin, adds Denali /caddilac interior appointments , pressurized it, and makes it go 300 ktas at $2k/month payment.. oh.. add an autopilot that manages take off and landings as well as flight.. programmable via your smart phone... (I think we are actually really close to this).. then general aviation will become an amazing amazing thing...

DJT, Elon ... Got your ears on good buddies?
 
Last edited:
Hank S said:
Good cost comparison! I may copy that . . . .

AC on a plane is generally only needed when getting inside after being parked on the ramp in the summer without a canopy cover. I fly in the hot, humid Southeast and generally run cabin heat above about 6000 msl year round. Two weeks ago, temps were mid-90s but 59°F at 8500.
Click to expand...

Pressurized, pressurized, pressurized.. a/c mandatory... Love doing my run-up while sweating .. it's awesome... Haha..

Oh yeah, speaking of run-up, turbo props don't have to.. way way better engine..

Vote for folks who want less regulation and get the FAA out if the way, and the explosion of innovation will be winning on steroids... In 5-10 years... We will all be flying comfortable and capable and far safer planes at 25% the price...

Yes you will still be able to steer if you want.. but you can just fly via telling your electronic pilot where to go via your smart phone...

There may not be another industry as stifled as general aviation by the antiquated glacial pace of the FAA.. boggles my mind
 
Last edited:
Anyone who wants to come fly to Bozeman, BZN, and show me their awesome plane that they love so much... you are welcome here!

If you come.. you will understand the desire for fast and comfy 500nm legs I seek.. hahaha
 
Davidl13 said:
Disregarding dollars for a moment.. the vision jet is coastal... I live in the Rockies.. and at elevation in the summer.. that vision jet can't compete with a turbo prop.. it's a physics thing... No small jet can do as well as a turbo prop at hot elevation ... now from San Diego to Seattle .. sure.. Boston to Miami.. yeah... I sat in the vision jet.. Cirrus clearly thinks humas first.. their ergonomics are second to none.. but their capabilities come second.. they are built for the wife to approve the purchase.. and they are smart for it...

Unfortunately, from my perspective no one is competing against Cirrus and Cirrus has priced their un pressurized piston so high... That there doesn't seem to be a place for a turbo prop... and they can never lower the price of the piston or they would screw the owners.. they are the apple of airplanes.. $1000 cell phones.. they set the mark and now every plane in the class costs more because of the comparitive analysis....you can have comfort or capability.. just not both... Hahah

I'll check out the Mooney, rumor has it they are very small inside.. but I am willing to look..

Edit: after writing the above I reviewed the Mooney data/video . You can't have tks and air conditioning .. and not be aneorexic...My point exactly... So I just pass close to $1m and I don't have a basic comfort and safety... Insane.. I'll pass
Click to expand...
Cirrus hasn't priced their airplanes high; the market has. (Don't think so? Look at how many they've sold ...)
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Cirrus hasn't priced their airplanes high; the market has. (Don't think so? Look at how many they've sold ...)
Click to expand...

That is a very odd response... Yes they set a price, people bought it.. and no one is even trying to compete.. so they can charge whatever they want . Only game in town...

Get the FAA out if the way... corporate fascism insured by the us gov. ... We will have better, faster, more comfortable, more efficient, safer planes at the price of a car payment... With enough real competition to keep the market honest
 
Davidl13 said:
Get the FAA out if the way... corporate fascism insured by the us gov. ... We will have better, faster, more comfortable, more efficient, safer planes at the price of a car payment... With enough real competition to keep the market honest
Click to expand...
A free market economy can do a lot, but I seriously doubt it can accomplish all this.
 
Hank S said:
Check out the new Mooney Ultras. They have two doors, much improved ergonomics,
Click to expand...

Copy on the ingress improvement, but how did they change the ergonomics? Genuinely curious, love the mooney numbers but could never make the ergonomics tolerable for my mission.
 
Ken Ibold said:
A free market economy can do a lot, but I seriously doubt it can accomplish all this.
Click to expand...

Yeah I doubt that everyone could afford their very own computer .or....I could click a button on my computer and anything I want will arrive at my door the next day... For less money than it used to cost.....

Wait, hold in a second????
 
can someone explain to the financed millionaire the concept of economies of scale? The thread has gone full retard, on top of being necro'd all to hell.
 
Davidl13 said:
Yeah I doubt that everyone could afford their very own computer .or....I could click a button on my computer and anything I want will arrive at my door the next day... For less money than it used to cost.....

Wait, hold in a second????
Click to expand...
So ... what's the market for a personal computer, versus the market for a personal airplane, even at Toyota Camry prices?
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Cirrus hasn't priced their airplanes high; the market has. (Don't think so? Look at how many they've sold ...)
Click to expand...

There's no mass market for airplanes any more. Look at how few Cirrus now sells (half the annual number it sold a decade ago).
The total annual market volume for new piston aircraft is now so small it's a cottage industry ranging from a few hand built rag & tube models (ACA, Aviat) to a couple hundred trainers (Cessna and Piper) and a small number of luxury baubles that require Lexus-like lifestyle promotion and ego-stroking "Delivery Centers". Even Cirrus has figured out it has to move upmarket from piston aircraft.
 
GRG55 said:
There's no mass market for airplanes any more. Look at how few Cirrus now sells (half the annual number it sold a decade ago).
The total annual market volume for new piston aircraft is now so small it's a cottage industry ranging from a few hand built rag & tube models (ACA, Aviat) to a couple hundred trainers (Cessna and Piper) and a small number of luxury baubles that require Lexus-like lifestyle promotion and ego-stroking "Delivery Centers". Even Cirrus has figured out it has to move upmarket from piston aircraft.
Click to expand...

Absolutely correct, even if you left out the 500+ new kitbuilt aircraft added to the market every year. Those represent a sizeable portion of the new aircraft in the US.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
So ... what's the market for a personal computer, versus the market for a personal airplane, even at Toyota Camry prices?
Click to expand...

As large as the car market with flying automation. Fly a cirrus g1000 and the AP that goes with it.. you don't do any flying except for take off and landings.. and taxi.. and a computer will be far superior at flying, takeoff landing and taxing as well.
 
Last edited:
GRG55 said:
There's no mass market for airplanes any more. Look at how few Cirrus now sells (half the annual number it sold a decade ago).
The total annual market volume for new piston aircraft is now so small it's a cottage industry ranging from a few hand built rag & tube models (ACA, Aviat) to a couple hundred trainers (Cessna and Piper) and a small number of luxury baubles that require Lexus-like lifestyle promotion and ego-stroking "Delivery Centers". Even Cirrus has figured out it has to move upmarket from piston aircraft.
Click to expand...

The opposite is true if you get the. FAA out of the way.. the cost of entry as a mfg and a pilot is severe.. so of course it is limited..

Take away the barriers and Katy bar the door .. the flood of great products and users will be endless.. litteraly endless... For generations..
 
Man, I don’t think the FAA is jacking up prices so much as the aviation industry is doing so itself. My club was looking for a replacement fuel cutoff placard, like this:

upload_2018-10-14_12-16-55.jpeg

$75 used.

That’s not big government. That’s the aviation industry. You’re always welcome to fly experimental if you want to avoid “the government”.

I’ve been enjoying this thread but it’s gone bananas.
 
woodchucker said:
Man, I don’t think the FAA is jacking up prices so much as the aviation industry is doing so itself. My club was looking for a replacement fuel cutoff placard, like this:

View attachment 68109

I hope you live to see the day...

Experimental lives in the shadow, not the light



$75 used.

That’s not big government. That’s the aviation industry. You’re always welcome to fly experimental if you want to avoid “the government”.

I’ve been enjoying this thread but it’s gone bananas.
Click to expand...


I hope you live to see the day.

Experimental lives in the shadow, not the light.

Prices are high because markets are limited by regulations and ability to fly

Eliminate regs and have a self flying planes...(we are really really close to that) and the flood gates open and cost of production plummets... Just like the price of a ford focus or Toyota Camry mentioned above

Most crashes are pilot error.... A thing of the past..when a computer flies..
 
Last edited:
Once driverless cars become mainstream and tested and nearly foolproof I don’t think the 3rd dimension will be far behind. Either VTOL craft with chutes for any emergency/malfunction, or we could portion off parts of the Interstate highways for use as runways. People could input their destination into an app, a driverless car would show up and either take you to your destination or if determined to be quicker would take you to a pilotless plane for part of the journey. I don’t see that as an impossible scenario.

But if you think this will be done without the government you would be crazy.
 
woodchucker said:
Once driverless cars become mainstream and tested and nearly foolproof I don’t think the 3rd dimension will be far behind. Either VTOL craft with chutes for any emergency/malfunction, or we could portion off parts of the Interstate highways for use as runways. People could input their destination into an app, a driverless car would show up and either take you to your destination or if determined to be quicker would take you to a pilotless plane for part of the journey. I don’t see that as an impossible scenario.

But if you think this will be done without the government you would be crazy.
Click to expand...

You put words in my mouth... I said get bad regulations that stiffle innovation out of the way...

Why doesn't your plane have comfortable electric memory seats like your car? Because of the FAA the mfg can't afford to develop a simple item.. heck there isn't even much development cost.. they already exist.. for 40 years...

If you can't see this, you are not looking
 
woodchucker said:
But if you think this will be done without the government you would be crazy.
Click to expand...

the-big-bang-theory-geek-im-not-crazy-my-mother-11060267.png
 
Personally I think aircraft will be easier to automate than a car.. given the call and response of ATC to Aircraft... Traffic is centralized.. in cars most traffic is decentralized and the market is far less controlled as far as "road space" goes
 
GRG55 said:
and a small number of luxury baubles that require Lexus-like lifestyle promotion and ego-stroking "Delivery Centers".
Click to expand...

LOL That visual made my afternoon ROFL. Preach brother preach! :D
 
Davidl13 said:
You put words in my mouth... I said get bad regulations that stiffle innovation out of the way...

Why doesn't your plane have comfortable electric memory seats like your car? Because of the FAA the mfg can't afford to develop a simple item.. heck there isn't even much development cost.. they already exist.. for 40 years...

If you can't see this, you are not looking
Click to expand...
Electric seat motor and regulator weighs about 2 gals of avgas. Times 2 (or more) and many pilots would rather have more useful load. Air conditioning is worse, 40 lbs or more.

So your electric seats and a/c that is used 15 min per flight cost you maybe an hour in fuel.

It isn't always a "government stifles innovation" issue -- although there is a lot of that. Sometimes physics gets in the way.
 
Ken Ibold said:
Electric seat motor and regulator weighs about 2 gals of avgas. Times 2 (or more) and many pilots would rather have more useful load. Air conditioning is worse, 40 lbs or more.

So your electric seats and a/c that is used 15 min per flight cost you maybe an hour in fuel.

It isn't always a "government stifles innovation" issue -- although there is a lot of that. Sometimes physics gets in the way.
Click to expand...

Everything in design is a trade-off ... And you have entirely missed the point..

As a consumer.. we should be able to make that choice..what options we choose...and we cannot.. because of idiotic gov regs
 
If you want to drive a stripped down, no ac, crappy seat, light as possible aircraft... Fine.. have at it...

If I want to sacrifice weight for comfort.. I should be able to.. and due to gov regs.. it is illegal to do so...

The paradigm is so rigid right now, the responses are largely "in the box" thinking...

If there was no box, what would be possible... I know enough to say , I don't know... And that is the point... Encourage innovation and you get just that...

Discourage innovation and you have a Cessna 172/182/.. Piper blah blah, Mooney... Same **** 50 years later.. it was like when I went to East Germany in 1990... Time stood still
 
Davidl13 said:
Everything in design is a trade-off ... And you have entirely missed the point..

As a consumer.. we should be able to make that choice..what options we choose...and we cannot.. because of idiotic gov regs
Click to expand...
You, my friend, are totally missing the point. Govt regs are a hindrance, but far from the only ones or even the most challenging ones preventing the mythical airplane you desire.

But you know how to solve the problems of the entire industry. Thank goodness for that.
 
The FAA? Those aren't laws. Now gravity... that's a law.

Problem is, physics don't really agree with you.
 
Ken Ibold said:
You, my friend, are totally missing the point. Govt regs are a hindrance, but far from the only ones or even the most challenging ones preventing the mythical airplane you desire.

But you know how to solve the problems of the entire industry. Thank goodness for that.
Click to expand...

Ah.. no vision
 
Mtns2Skies said:
The FAA? Those aren't laws. Now gravity... that's a law.

Problem is, physics don't really agree with you.
Click to expand...

Gravity doesn't agree with a computer piloting an airplane?

Gravity doesn't agree with an electric seat?

Gravity doesn't agree with innivation...??

Nah.. childish naysayers..

You guys are box heads..
 
Robots would definitely be an improvement over pilots... I didn't realize how much so until now.. it's your jail cell and you defend it ... And insist on paying for it.. in many ways.. ok.. it's yours you can keep it..

There are visionaries, early adopters, mainstream, laggers and road blockers..

The ones arguing against innovation are road blockers..

If the best you can do is to not block, then simply step aside.. allow deregulation to happen.. you will still benefit.. much like Jonathan Dickinson in the vote for independence
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top