why full stop at take off and land once Solo?

[denverpilot]

Have you considered looking in Part 91 and the AIM to try to find such a "policy"?



Always, always, say "Show me where it says that." If you do not, your training will largely consist of Old Wive's Tales.



Bob Gardner

Thankfully I had a primary CFI who emphasized this, even if I thought I heard him say something incorrect.

"You're the PIC. You look it up and ask if you think I told you something wrong." He never did, but I still looked up a few things. And learned to read FAA-lawyer-speak, which only has a loose relationship with regular English.

I think the switch to electronic versions of the regs and AIM took away some of the "shock and awe" of the old process where the CFI would hand you their copy of the giant printed version and say "get after it, go find your answer, it's in that...", and give you significant crap if you didn't have your copy with you.

 

[dmspilot]

Most CFIs will require students to do full stop and even taxi-back on their demonstrated first three solo landings in order to get the solo endorsement.

Most CFIs will require students to call them before taking off on long XC. They want to be available in case the student gets into trouble.

And the FAR does require ten full stop landings on the night XC.

Can you stop posting nonsense in this thread?

 

[bflynn]

You're reading it incorrectly.

I'm sorry, but how do you think I'm reading it?

Many, many people said there was no FAA requirements to teach full stop landings. There are requirements to do them during private instruction as aviation experience.

Going back to the OP's question, I expressed an opinion on why I think they are required and related my instructor's reasoning for her rules on it.

Not sure what you read, but please go back and read more slowly.

 

[dmspilot]

Many, many people said there was no FAA requirements to teach full stop landings.

Nobody said that. How can you not teach them–obviously the airplane has to stop at some point.

 

[flyingron]

Many, many people said there was no FAA requirements to teach full stop landings. There are requirements to do them during private instruction as aviation experience.

Nobody said that. I just reread the entire thread. Everybody who commented on full stops was talking about solo.

Going back to the OP's question, I expressed an opinion on why I think they are required and related my instructor's reasoning for her rules on it.

Everybody's entitled to an opinion, but yours is neither supported by the REGULATION nor any FAA interpretation or recommendation. If you have some other than "this is the way I think it should be" post it or give up.

 

[Sundancer]

Maybe it's best not too descend into "stump the dummy" on AIM or FARS minutia; just stick to if it's a good idea to crash-and-dash as a solo student, or not?

Palm Springs tower reminded my flaps were still down on taxi-back (a million years ago!). . my instructor was inside the terminal. I had soloed previously (Hemet Ryan) and he wanted me on my own at a towered field, too.

He'd warned the tower I was a student; real nice, real pro of the tower to look out and warn me.

Anyway, 9 night landings, or 11, doesn't really matter, and no one will know, anyway. Just get the skill down.

 

[flyingron]

In watching flight school operations at our towered field, half the time the instructor cooled his heels smoking on the ramp and occasionally they'd wander up into the control tower to watch. Never had I seen one "coaching" on the radio (not that it would have been appreciated).

The other school I was familiar with would have the instructor lean in the door after each full stop and critique the landing and send them around again.

The number of night landings better be logged and be at least 10. The DPE may check the student's log book to make sure that they do indeed have the required aeronautical experience.

 

[flhrci]

No radio requirement otherwise I could have never soloed guys in the Cub.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yea I know. That's what I do.

 

[flhrci]

When I solo my students, I'm not looking for perfection. I'm looking for consistently safe landings. If they perform to PTS standards, it's an added bonus.

When my students ask me what I am looking for, that's what I tell them. Picture perfect landings not required.

David

 

[flhrci]

You're quite mistaken. There's no requirement for "supervision." THere's a whole section of the section 61 that details what you need to be SURE you have taught your student before allowing him to go solo (even locally) and a whole slew more before he can go XC. That obviates the need to sit there and jabber at him over the radio.

In fact the "talking the student through it on the radio" is one of the stupidest trends in modern instruction. Sort of neglects the whole point of solo. I dumped my instructor out on the ramp and taxied out for my three full stops as we agreed. Apparently the departure of the instructor was not missed by the tower. Upon turning crosswind on my first solo takeoff, the tower asked if it didn't fly a lot better without that fat guy in the right seat.

Ron, already admitted my mistake. I DO NOT talk my students through anything on the radio. I am there for assistance on the radio if the need arrises which I do not expect. Also, when they land I congratulate them on the solo, give a little encouragement or critique and ask them how they feel and stuff like that while they are taxiing for the 2nd and 3rd. I think it is a nice thing to be on the radio. Its also a tool. Also, while I am videoing the event, I hold the radio near the video camera. Many benefits to being on the radio, little to no down side.

David

 

[MAKG1]

There is a LITTLE downside. The student can see that as a crutch. One of the points of solo (both first solo, and the cross-countries) is for the student to be entirely responsible for themselves.

Now, if the student didn't know you had a radio until you came on afterward with the congratulations, that would be quite different. And that would still allow the possibility of coming on if the student was having problems (at least, those you could see from the ground or hear in the student's voice).

Encouragement, critique, and checking up on a student between landings is getting in the way of PIC responsibility. If they are cleared for solo, that should mean you believe they have the judgment to do all that safely.

 

[warthog1984]

Any student who believes the instructor is going to be anywhere but on the ramp or in a tower cab during a first solo is not mature enough *to* solo.

 

[timwinters]

Except if you abort a landing, be nice to have some experience at T&Gs before you try it.

Meh...

I've done plenty of touch and goes in the past to have adequate muscle memory. I just choose not to do them if the runway length allows for a stop and go instead.

 

[flyingron]

Mine was leaning on the airport fence smoking a cigarette, just as I expected him to be. Hopping out and reaching for a smoke while walking from the ramp back to the office was standard procedure for him.

 

[bflynn]

Everybody's entitled to an opinion, but yours is neither supported by the REGULATION nor any FAA interpretation or recommendation. If you have some other than "this is the way I think it should be" post it or give up.

Well, my opinion is that students have to perform some full stop landings as part of their private instruction and most of those landings will come after they have soloed. I would say that my opinion is pretty well supported by regulation.

I also believe that MY instructor required me to do full stop landings when I soloed because she was worried about me forgetting something during a process i was just learning. This nothing more than a justification of why an instructor might create additional restrictions on a student for solo flight. I could be mistaken but I thought that verbal restrictions were considered part of the log book endorsement, which is the legal instrument allowing student solo flight. Therefore it would be the FAA saying "its the law because the instructor said its the rules." In any case, its a Bad Idea to ignore your instructor's verbal requirements.

I'm not sure what else you are are reading into that that would cause you to post as you did.

 

[d5by5]

Where do you get that interpretation? You need 10 full stop landings at night, night hours, and a night XC. It doesn't have to be all at once.

No one said all at once. But the full stop landings are required by the FAR.

 

[flyingron]

No one said all at once. But the full stop landings are required by the FAR.

Actually you did. Your post:

And the FAR does require ten full stop landings on the night XC.

As with just about everything you've said in this thread, you are wrong and won't man up and admit it.

Again, it has nothing to do with solo. The required ten night landings can not be made solo.

 

[flyingron]

Well, my opinion is that students have to perform some full stop landings as part of their private instruction and most of those landings will come after they have soloed. I would say that my opinion is pretty well supported by regulation.

Never argued that. You said you were responding to the original question which questioned why the FAA requires solo landings to be full stop. The answer is that while people might recommend it, it is not an FAA requirement (nor is it even an FAA recommendation).

I also believe that MY instructor required me to do full stop landings when I soloed because she was worried about me forgetting something during a process i was just learning.

Indeed, and this is a good reason, but that doesn't make it either an FAA requirement or recommendation.

This nothing more than a justification of why an instructor might create additional restrictions on a student for solo flight. I could be mistaken but I thought that verbal restrictions were considered part of the log book endorsement, which is the legal instrument allowing student solo flight.

You ARE mistaken. The endorsement stands for itself. While the instructor might be upset or the flight school might be ****esd, unless the ENDORSEMENT says FULL STOP ONLY, the student is not violating any FAA rules.

I'm not sure what else you are are reading into that that would cause you to post as you did.

Because you persist on misleading the students by promulgating patently wrong statements. This thread would have stopped after one post that said there's no requirement that student solo landings be full stop, but it's probably a good idea. Unlike several of the people in this thread, I'm not adverse to indicating I am wrong but you post "I think" and "this is the way I told" without a single shred of actual justification, not regulation, no advisory circular or AIM citation, or any FAA publication or information.

 

[Everskyward]

Well, my opinion is that students have to perform some full stop landings as part of their private instruction and most of those landings will come after they have soloed. I would say that my opinion is pretty well supported by regulation.

The student obviously needs to perform SOME full stop landings or they would be out there forever. But please show where your opinion is supported by regulation.

 

[dmspilot]

Well, my opinion is that students have to perform some full stop landings as part of their private instruction and most of those landings will come after they have soloed. I would say that my opinion is pretty well supported by regulation.

This is not what the thread is about, maybe you should read the question before responding. And of course students have to perform "some full stop landings", if they never did then the flight would continue on into infinity.

 

[bflynn]

but you post "I think" and "this is the way I told" without a single shred of actual justification, not regulation, no advisory circular or AIM citation, or any FAA publication or information.

I'm sorry, I don't know who peed in your corn flakes today, but I don't think I needed to justify my opinions or experiences with FAR regulations...which BTW, I did actually post. Please do not jump down my throat for what is obviously a description of what I did.

I cannot see any regulation that prohibits you from ignoring verbal restrictions given by your flight instructor, other than just good sense. But I already stated I might be wrong on that. I also bolded the word "my" to indicate that it was the experience that I had. I had a verbal instruction not to do roll-n-gos. This was later lifted after we had done some together and she was satisfied that I would get myself into a departure stall or soemthing.

Full stop landings for solo students are not abnormal. It might not have been when you learned to fly, but its not uncommon now.

As far as the early posters who posted things like "who said" - the answer is probably the OP's instructor. As a student, you do need to follow instructions from your instructor. Mine had a bunch of "silly" rules like not landing with less than 1/2 tank and no flying with a crosswind component over 14 kts. I had to consult with her before flying any cross country and there was no solo flight at night, plus a lot of other rules. For me, these were legally bound to me via the logbook endorsement. But even if they weren't, it is a really bad idea to violate rules your instructor gives you, even if they are not legally required.

 

[bflynn]

Is 61.109 not current? Full stop landings all over this one. http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFar.nsf/FARSBySectLookup/61.109

The student obviously needs to perform SOME full stop landings or they would be out there forever. But please show where your opinion is supported by regulation.

This is not what the thread is about, maybe you should read the question before responding. And of course students have to perform "some full stop landings", if they never did then the flight would continue on into infinity.

The thread is about students doing full stop landings after solo. There's two sources that can require it. One is 61.109, the other is 61.87 with any restrictions coming from your instructor. See my previous post.

 

[MikeELP]

..if they never did then the flight would continue on into infinity.

Well, at least until they ran out of gas. In which case it most definitely would be a full stop landing. :wink2:

 

[coloradobluesky]

Its so you get practice stopping while you are bouncing...

 

[topsail]

After my first perfect solo landing in my 182 I ignored my instructors directions (an act of omission not commission) and rolled to a second take off. Mind you it might have been better if I took the 30 degrees of flaps out. Fortunately I had the skill or luck to keep the nose down until I could gain some speed and take out the flaps without bending metal. The next landing was to a full stop. My instructor was watching at the time.

He later told me he lost a student who did the same thing and lost control of the aircraft.

 

[Lachlan]

I love this thread because it gives me hope. Apparently I won't have to memorize the FARs, because a whole lot of posters in here never did, and they got their licenses!