Whooping cough is back... again

Jay Honeck said:
Just make sure your kids are vaccinated -- and then sit back and enjoy the ensuing Darwinistic exercise.

It's tough medicine, but maybe the only solution is to kill off a whole bunch of these idiots...
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Sorry, Jay, but it doesn't work that way. Vaccines fail. Children get pertussis before they reach even the early weeks of vaccination. Even the vaccinated community is endangered by the anti-vaccine crowds. There should be no "crackpot" exceptions for school environments (Margy used to refer to her students as her little disease vectors).
 
flyingron said:
Sorry, Jay, but it doesn't work that way. Vaccines fail. Children get pertussis before they reach even the early weeks of vaccination. Even the vaccinated community is endangered by the anti-vaccine crowds. There should be no "crackpot" exceptions for school environments (Margy used to refer to her students as her little disease vectors).
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In the last 150 or so years the planet went from a stable 500MM where it was for millenia to over 7BB. The answer is "Sorry, it doesn't work that way" is the height of arrogance in the face of nature. It most certainly does work that way and these egotistical notions that we have that we can win against nature are just foolish.

Just because we as man don't want it to work that way is irrelevant. When we deffer a payment, we have to pay interest and God is the ultimate loan shark. We have a long standing debt we keep parlaying on and losing; at this point we are running out of ability to pay the vig.
 
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steingar said:
Small pox is still extant, though in remote areas, as is Polio.
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Hmm... not that Wikipedia is the supreme authority on anything, but I don't think this paragraph has been challenged recently if ever:

Wikipedia said:
The last naturally occurring case of indigenous smallpox (Variola minor) was diagnosed in Ali Maow Maalin, a hospital cook in Merca, Somalia, on 26 October 1977.[18] The last naturally occurring case of the more deadly Variola major had been detected in October 1975 in a two-year-old Bangladeshi girl, Rahima Banu.[23]

The global eradication of smallpox was certified, based on intense verification activities in countries, by a commission of eminent scientists on 9 December 1979 and subsequently endorsed by the World Health Assembly on 8 May 1980.
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azure said:
Hmm... not that Wikipedia is the supreme authority on anything, but I don't think this paragraph has been challenged recently if ever:
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??? I thought I remember reading about a couple cases in the old east block a few years back, but that may not have been considered a natural occurrence.
 
azure said:
Hmm... not that Wikipedia is the supreme authority on anything, but I don't think this paragraph has been challenged recently if ever:
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I noted that too, but Mike is a professor in the biosciences and I wouldn't challenge him in this area unless I have a really good citation to back me up. There's a good chance he's read something that hasn't made it into the wikis as yet.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I noted that too, but Mike is a professor in the biosciences and I wouldn't challenge him in this area unless I have a really good citation to back me up. There's a good chance he's read something that hasn't made it into the wikis as yet.
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This isn't a debate as far as I'm concerned. If the article is wrong it should be corrected.

And I'd really like to know what the status is of the WHO declaration. If there are known cases extant in the world, why hasn't it been rescinded? Or has it?

(edit: This emedicine article pretty strongly states that the virus no longer exists outside of laboratories. It was last updated on March 29. If Prof. Steingar has more recent info, I would ask that he post his source.)
 
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azure said:
This isn't a debate as far as I'm concerned. If the article is wrong it should be corrected.
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I agree, and the correction should include a citation. Any of us can make the change- that's both a strength and weakness of Wikipedia. As I have nothing to back up a change, I won't change it.

azure said:
And I'd really like to know what the status is of the WHO declaration. If there are known cases extant in the world, why hasn't it been rescinded? Or has it?
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Good question. As Mike mentioned it was extant, maybe he has some info. Dr. Bruce or one of the other MDs may also have more information.
 
According to WHO, both Polio and Small Pox are still extant in remote areas of the world with little health care. I haven't checked in a bit, but given the demise of infrastructure in many places, I would be surprised if those viruses are truly extinct in the wild. Of course, the really scary thing is if we have stocks, odds are good that other governments do as well. Don't have to weaponize it, just infect someone and send them across.
 
steingar said:
According to WHO, both Polio and Small Pox are still extant in remote areas of the world with little health care. I haven't checked in a bit, but given the demise of infrastructure in many places, I would be surprised if those viruses are truly extinct in the wild. Of course, the really scary thing is if we have stocks, odds are good that other governments do as well. Don't have to weaponize it, just infect someone and send them across.
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I know that polio still survives in remote areas, I don't think that was ever in contention. But smallpox was declared eradicated and I can't find anything on the WHO website that contradicts that. Do you have a specific citation?

Sure there could be other stocks of the virus, and a terrorist or some freak accident could someday release it. WHO basically says that's why there is still a need for smallpox vaccines. But if they believe the disease still occurs in the wild, their public information is silent on that as far as I can tell from my limited reading.
 
azure said:
I know that polio still survives in remote areas, I don't think that was ever in contention. But smallpox was declared eradicated and I can't find anything on the WHO website that contradicts that. Do you have a specific citation?

Sure there could be other stocks of the virus, and a terrorist or some freak accident could someday release it. WHO basically says that's why there is still a need for smallpox vaccines. But if they believe the disease still occurs in the wild, their public information is silent on that as far as I can tell from my limited reading.
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Remember, the WHO is as much about propaganda as medicine.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
About you not knowing the sciences? No.
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Wow, you're extra perceptive today. Why would I ask if you refute your own statement? No, I was referring to my statement that the WHO's duties are as much propaganda as medicine.
 
Henning said:
Wow, you're extra perceptive today. Why would I ask if you refute your own statement? No, I was referring to my statement that the WHO's duties are as much propaganda as medicine.
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You said it...you back it up. I'm not going to do your research for you.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
In the strict sense of "information", propaganda is covered.
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Then I ask again, do you refute my earlier statement? We'll leave the value judgements out of it since the WHO is an arm of the UN and there are plenty of people who question the motivations of any political organization.
 
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Henning said:
Then I ask again, do you refute my earlier statement? We'll leave the value judgements out of it since the WHO is an arm of the UN and there are plenty of people who question the motivations of any political organization.
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I certainly do. Look at the reference I cited and tell how the term "propaganda" is used in a good light.

Given thet "progaganda" doesn't refer to good information, please share your citations where the WHO isn't providing information generally accepted by scientists or health care providers.
 
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Cap'n Jack said:
I certainly do. Look at the reference I cited and tell how the term "propaganda" is used in a good light.
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Where did I say I considered WHO to be wholly good or that I implicitly trust their information; I do not. I do not take without suspicion the word of a political organization. That suspicion is why I used the word propaganda specifically. It is technically accurate and inflects an editorial opinion all in one word. Semantic elegance and economy.
 
Henning said:
Where did I say I considered WHO to be wholly good or that I implicitly trust their information; I do not. I do not take without suspicion the word of a political organization. That suspicion is why I used the word propaganda specifically. It is technically accurate and inflects an editorial opinion all in one word. Semantic elegance and economy.
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Again, I ask what information do they provide that isn't generally accepted by health care workers?
 
Henning said:
Remember, the WHO is as much about propaganda as medicine.
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What are you implying by this? That the WHO knows of recent smallpox occurrences but chooses to withhold this information from the public so that they can still claim to have eradicated the disease? That's the only sense of the word "propaganda" that I can imagine applying here.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Again, I ask what information do they provide that isn't generally accepted by health care workers?
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How would I know? I'm not accusing them of anything, just saying don't rule something out that comes from other credible sources because of what WHO says; they are a branch of a political organization therefor potentially suspect. Not telling people "yeah, there's some small pox still out there but it's so remote it's a non issue" is something I can see them doing, and I wouldn't consider it wrong to do; it's better to just leave it unsaid because the only possible outcome from saying that would be negative. That doesn't make it any less being an issue of using propaganda.

The real definition of propaganda is using information to manipulate an outcome.
 
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Henning said:
How would I know? I'm not accusing them of anything,
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Except putting out propaganda

Henning said:
just saying don't rule something out that comes from other credible sources because of what WHO says;
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No one said otherwise. Read post #49. There's some people that are credible due to their reputation and Mike is one of them. Others, I question everything they post as they don't have, or have lost, a good reputation.

Henning said:
they are a branch of a political organization therefor potentially suspect.
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So you suspect them, so they are automatically bad.

Henning said:
Not telling people "yeah, there's some small pox still out there but it's so remote it's a non issue" is something I can see them doing, and I wouldn't consider it wrong to do; it's better to just leave it unsaid because the only possible outcome from saying that would be negative. That doesn't make it any less being an issue of using propaganda.
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Maybe so, but you have no evidence they are doing that.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Except putting out propaganda

No one said otherwise. Read post #49. There's some people that are credible due to their reputation and Mike is one of them. Others, I question everything they post as they don't have, or have lost, a good reputation.

So you suspect them, so they are automatically bad.

Maybe so, but you have no evidence they are doing that.
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Right, I never accused them of doing that either, I never mentioned it until you brought it up. I used one word to express my entire thoughts, that should say something about the depths of my concern. You're the one who's been trying to protract this into something major.
 
Henning said:
Right, I never accused them of doing that either, I never mentioned it until you brought it up. I used one word to express my entire thoughts, that should say something about the depths of my concern. You're the one who's been trying to protract this into something major.
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I brought it up? I didn't dispute the WHO, Wikipedia, or Steingar- I merely indicated that I wouldn't say Mike is wrong about something he wrote in the sciences without a good citation to back me up.

Who's into revisionist history? I didn't write the comments below...
Henning said:
Remember, the WHO is as much about propaganda as medicine.
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Henning said:
Wow, you're extra perceptive today. Why would I ask if you refute your own statement? No, I was referring to my statement that the WHO's duties are as much propaganda as medicine.
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Please show me where I said the WHO or anyone else was wrong about smallpox being extant, or spreading propaganda about smallpox.
 
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The WHO is the best and least biased source of medical information I know for most of the third world, which is most of the world. According to Henning, the dissemination of knowledge is propaganda, which I assume means everything from Aesop's Fables to the scholarly works in Science and Nature that underlie the cures to many horrible illnesses. Fortunately, most people are somewhat more discriminating in their use of derogatory labeling.
 
steingar said:
The WHO is the best and least biased source of medical information I know for most of the third world, which is most of the world. According to Henning, the dissemination of knowledge is propaganda, which I assume means everything from Aesop's Fables to the scholarly works in Science and Nature that underlie the cures to many horrible illnesses. Fortunately, most people are somewhat more discriminating in their use of derogatory labeling.
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Sorry, I believe I said I believed that propaganda was the use of information to influence influence people's opinion/actions towards a designed result. So yeah, Aesop's Fables would count. Anytime you deliver information with an editorial, that is propaganda, and that IS the JOB of the WHO. The getting kids immunized is a propaganda campaign. You can call it whatever else you want if you need, but it is what it is.
 
....slackjawed......
....Henning, youse is either post "a beer or three" or are just getting more jaded than....oh never mind...:nono:
 
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Jaded is correct. Vaccination is what started this sled ride to overpopulation and antibiotics were the rocket booster that set us headed for the vertical slope. There is much idiocy involved in programs that propagate further over population without taking care of basic issues like fresh drinking water for all these damned surviving babies to drink.
 
I guess we aren't going to get an answer then? Does WHO actually say somewhere that smallpox is still extant? Instead we get a page and a half of Henning trying to tell us the WHO is sanitizing their public info to avert unnecessary panic.

I guess it's just another day on POA... :dunno:
 
azure said:
I guess we aren't going to get an answer then? Does WHO actually say somewhere that smallpox is still extant? Instead we get a page and a half of Henning trying to tell us the WHO is sanitizing their public info to avert unnecessary panic.

I guess it's just another day on POA... :dunno:
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Yep, another day at POA where reading comprehension's extant is as questionable as smallpox.
 
azure said:
I guess we aren't going to get an answer then? Does WHO actually say somewhere that smallpox is still extant? Instead we get a page and a half of Henning trying to tell us the WHO is sanitizing their public info to avert unnecessary panic.

I guess it's just another day on POA... :dunno:
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Or another day in the fantasy world of Henning........:rolleyes:
 
azure said:
I guess we aren't going to get an answer then? Does WHO actually say somewhere that smallpox is still extant? Instead we get a page and a half of Henning trying to tell us the WHO is sanitizing their public info to avert unnecessary panic.

I guess it's just another day on POA... :dunno:
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Forgive me, but I can't get you any kind of citation. My source was a virology seminar a few year back. Right now there are medical websites claiming that the last case was in 1977. I therefore can no longer say with any certainty that the virus is extant with the exception of the laboratory specimens. Polio is still extant, though the number of new infections worldwide is limited to hundreds, at least according to that horrible source of propaganda, the World Health Organization.

It does take a bit of a leap in imagination to compare guys like Salk and Sabin to Goebbels.
 
If smallpox existed in the wild we would have had a massive epidemic by now. Vaccination hasn't occurred on a large scale since 1980. Thats 32 years and billions born who are unprotected. I'm disinclined to discard the findings of the CDC, NIH and WHO as some massive conspiracy. There may have been a case in the soviet bloc since then, and if it was, it would have been a lab worker.

Military and select healthcare volunteers were able to get vaccinated/boosted after 9/11 and the anthrax scare. I sat in on the training film but I declined to volunteer. If the balloon ever goes up and smallpox is the weapon it will be very ugly indeed. And it would take months to make enough vaccine to begin to START to make a difference.
 
Here's CDC's take on it... http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/basics/outbreak.asp

Smallpox and rinderpest (which isn't even a human disease) are the only two diseases to be eradicated. The rest: measles, pertussis, polio, etc... are still out there and crop up periodically in the US even in areas with a high non-vaccination crowd.
 
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Given the zoonotic nature of smallpox, the remoteness of some parts of the world, and the fact that carriers can live with the virus, I just have a hard time getting into my pointed bald head that it's really gone.
 
Doggtyred said:
Military and select healthcare volunteers were able to get vaccinated/boosted after 9/11 and the anthrax scare.
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I wish they would have given me the choice. I had to get both the smallpox and anthrax vaccinations. Trust me when I say neither of them were any fun at all. I guess I had to get them because I was on a VBSS (Visit, Board, Search, and Seizure) team.
 
steingar said:
Given the zoonotic nature of smallpox, the remoteness of some parts of the world, and the fact that carriers can live with the virus, I just have a hard time getting into my pointed bald head that it's really gone.
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That's really the one that makes it hard for me to believe it's gone.
 
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