luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Have you found answer to your original question? “who has the right of way”
who has right of way, backtaxi vs landing aircraft?
- Thread starter rbridges
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Have you found answer to your original question? “who has the right of way”
Timbeck2
Final Approach
Good grief fellas. It's either/or, and if that doesn't work, "hey, git on the runway and drive it until you can't go no more, then make a one eighty. I'll be here waitin' on ya."
ebetancourt
Line Up and Wait
Interesting that some posters above think a runway has to be totally empty before a landing or t/o. Some instructors think their school rules apply to everyone else. Not to long ago, I called departing a runway and a Diamond at the end of a 5,000 ft runway said in what I suspect was an octave higher than his normal voice, "We are still on the runway." My response was "noted." In my t/o call I said "Citabria NXXXYY" I guess he didn't hear that, or had no idea how much effort it would take to hit him. 
Timbeck2
Final Approach
Mine would have been, "pretty sure I'm not going to hit you." It happens to me all the time at work. Someone will go around on their own and we ask them why. "There's another plane on the runway." My runway is 13,643' long and all I need is 3,000 or 4,500'.
Larry in TN
En-Route
That AIM paragraph addresses both towered and non-towered operations. That is reinforced by the last sentence of the paragraph starting with, "At airports with an operating control tower" which wouldn't be necessary if the paragraph applied only to towered airports. The AIM describes procedures required by regulations and recommended methods for complying with the regulations.
I already posted the applicable regulation further up the thread.
It is in the Pilot/Controller Glossary which is also a controller book.
texasclouds
En-Route
Wow, four pages!
Timbeck2
Final Approach
I think the real discussion should be whether its "vigh-uh" or "vee-uh." I've heard both and I'm quite flummoxed as to how to take it.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
I had the controller at our delta tell the guy in front of me to keep rolling so I could land. Worked out well, 7,000 foot runway. I don't think I'd do it at a non towered field though, unless I had worked it out with the plane behind me. I try to be cognizant of people following me and get out of the way.
Ravioli
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NoHeat
Final Approach
Another confirmation:
I heard “back taxi” a week ago from the ground controller at a busy class delta.
The taxiway was under construction, so departing traffic was asked to “back taxi” closed runway 3L to get to the approach end of 3R, which was the active runway.
It was busy, so there were several aircraft back taxiing 3L at the same time.
This was KPDK, PeachTree Dekalb, near Atlanta. And the ground controller definitely told me to “back taxi.”
kgruber
Final Approach
At Boeing Field, they clear two airplanes on the long runway to land at once.
Done it MANY times
Done it MANY times
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yup. Continue reading to the end of what I said. Here it is again.
I’m sure what @flyingron is referring to is that the ‘phraseology’ “back taxi” is not in the Controllers rule book, the 7110.65. Taxi on and taxi via are. I don’t remember if it used to be. Probably. The BACK-TAXI entry in the PC/G would bear this out. Do naughty controllers sometimes say things that aren’t in the book? Yes. Always have, always will. The PC/G thing is only pertinent if a Controller says it. Seeing as how they do sometimes, I’d say leave it in there.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
View attachment 95864[/QUOTE]
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
[/QUOTE]
It’s the Nudged model i7. I hold the patent on that. Argue all ya want. No matter who wins, I get the prize money
Kritchlow
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Kritchlow
On takeoff, often we reduce takeoff power and require the entire runway.Interesting that some posters above think a runway has to be totally empty before a landing or t/o. Some instructors think their school rules apply to everyone else. Not to long ago, I called departing a runway and a Diamond at the end of a 5,000 ft runway said in what I suspect was an octave higher than his normal voice, "We are still on the runway." My response was "noted." In my t/o call I said "Citabria NXXXYY" I guess he didn't hear that, or had no idea how much effort it would take to hit him.
wasn’t aware we could land on a runway while another airplane was on it. We calculate every landing, using different levels of braking. A shortened runway due to traffic on the runway would be something we need to know, both from a practical, and a legal standpoint.
Yup. That’s the place. But some of them do use “taxi via”.
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sarangan
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Andrew, CFI-I
You did the right thing. You may have had to taxi for two minutes longer. Its not a big deal. If there was a steady stream of airplanes behind him leaving you no room to backtaxi, that would be a different story.
Who has the right of way does not matter here. If the airplane on final lost the engine and had to put it down with you heading in the opposite direction, the ensuing fireball is not going to help either one of you.
NoHeat
Final Approach
Ironically, a nudge is pretty much the opposite of a stick.
In the context of “carrot and stick,” stick is negative reinforcement. Nudge is positive reinforcement, in the lingo for behavioral economics.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
That would be true I think for the airplanes you fly. You are a big iron turbojet guy if I recall right. Those are Category III airplanes. Don’t confuse that with other uses of ‘category.’ It’s a category Controllers use for runway separation. Runways gotta be clear for youse guys.
Kritchlow
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Kritchlow
Agree with your analysis, but I guess my point is, are there two different sets of rules???
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Do you mean two different sets for Towered and Untowered airports? I have never seen a rule specifying runway separation minima at untowered airports. FAR91wise. Wouldn’t surprise me if there’s something in 121 about it. I’d guess Company rules might have something to say about it.
rbridges
En-Route
The new FBO is being built in the empty spot between Bravo and Charlie, so the taxiway between them is blocked. I landed a little long and was coming up on Bravo heading south when the oncoming traffic called me. It was no big deal to tuck into B and do a 360 and get back on the runway. I'm not the guy who can spit out FAR/AIM rules, so it just got me wondering about right of way.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Now I'm even more confused. You landed on which runway 18 or 36? Where did you start your back taxi and which taxiway were you trying to get off at, and which one did you get off at? And which runway was the aircraft on final using?
Wouldn't you have to do a 180 to get back on the runway?
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
It’s the Nudged model i7. I hold the patent on that. Argue all ya want. No matter who wins, I get the prize money[/QUOTE]
Okay, but remember,... you wanted to discuss it:
THAT’S NOT A STICK! THAT’S A BRANCH!
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I missed that. LOL. It's like when someone says they changed their stance 360 degrees.
rbridges
En-Route
I landed on 36 and I started my backtaxi between A and B (closer to B, but I didn't realize traffic was right on my tail or I would have headed on up to A). I need to get to C to work my way to the hangars. He called me before I got to B. You can go in it, but it's blocked beween B and C.
rbridges
En-Route
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Gotcha. Yeah, I never back taxi if there's another taxiway up ahead. If I wasn't going to make Bravo, I would have just held off on using the brakes and rolled to the end, used the taxiway from A to B and then used the runway from B to C. At my home field if I miss the first taxiway, I consider it my punishment and penance to do down to the next one and take the long way around.
Matthew Rogers
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Matt R
Question is, do you have to tip the controllers to get that? Or is it more like a negative tip?
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Okay, but remember,... you wanted to discuss it:
THAT’S NOT A STICK! THAT’S A BRANCH![/QUOTE]
Au contraire. It WAS a branch.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
As they do at all crowded fields WITH A TOWER! That’s quite a bit different than a small uncontrolled field with a mix of aircraft and pilot skill levels and only one entrance and exit in the middle of the runway.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
The new FBO is being built in the empty spot between Bravo and Charlie, so the taxiway between them is blocked. I landed a little long and was coming up on Bravo heading south when the oncoming traffic called me. It was no big deal to tuck into B and do a 360 and get back on the runway. I'm not the guy who can spit out FAR/AIM rules, so it just got me wondering about right of way.
The diagram shown appears to me as typical of many small town muni airports. With entrance/exits located in four or five locations it is pretty easy to manage in most cases. To begin with there is probably never a need to backtaxi on such a field. The runway described in the OP was a much different kettle of fish though. As I recall, it only had an entrance/exit in the middle or maybe two. For those of you who have never operated out of such a limited facility, it’s important to make sure the runway is clear or in a situation that can clear soon enough for everyone to be safe. On such a facility, someone on the runway could get shoved in a box before you know it. As I implied before, we need to offer common courtesy to those we share a runway with.
Edit: I reread the OP and now understand better. You had closed exits, so it was a little like the no or limited amount taxiway fields I spoke of. I don’t know if what the person did to you was correct within the FAR’s or not, but it was very discourteous. All of us being courteous with each other contributes to our safety.
I remember the films in drivers education classes of the sixties, they stressed that fighting over who had the right of way wasn’t a smart thing to do. You might win the fight but be celebrating it in a hospital room.
As in many areas, hangar space around here is tough to get. About five years ago, I had one airplane at a field 35 miles West of home and another about 35 miles East of home. Both were 4,000 feet. One of them had taxiway from midfield to the North run up box. The other only had an entrance/exit at midfield.
One day a crop duster friend of mine called an emergency landing and turned to short final just as I was about halfway to the run up box. All I could do was move to the left of the 75’ wide runway while he was coming the opposite direction. It all worked out and he thanked me later. I told him that anyone would have moved over and he insisted that not everyone would. It’s hard for me to believe that he was correct.
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Hang 4
This diagram was posted by the OP and is the field he was talking about. The taxiway between B and C was closed, hence the need to back taxi.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
Yes, see my edit of the previous post. I did that edit after I wrote the post and before I saw yours above.
He was a douche. You had the right of way in that situation. But you did the right thing.
A1Topgun
Cleared for Takeoff
And what did the student learn from this real life situation? Did he learn when to do a go around?
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
He learned what to do when flying a jet into an uncontrolled field.
Ravioli
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Thanks for the diagram.
In this example I would usually roll out full length, exit at the end and use the taxiway from Alpha to Bravo, hold there and yield as needed before back taxiing.
UNLESS: it was quiet, nobody in the pattern, no one reporting inbound, etc. in which case I'd do 180 (or 540) on the runway and save some minutes.
Regardless, I still think the CFI was wrong based on what you described in the original post.