Which trainer to get High Altitude / Pressurized endorsement in?

mandm

mandm

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Which trainer would you use to get a high altitude / pressurization endorsement in? Is it a one lesson and done like a high performance? I found that for complex and tailwheel, most flight schools want 10 hours even if you have the skills after a few hours training.
 
mandm said:
I found that for complex and tailwheel, most flight schools want 10 hours even if you have the skills after a few hours training.
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If the end goal is to rent their airplane for post training use, the 10-hour requirement is likely something set by their insurance carrier.

Stop by the school and ask the owner (or chief instructor), "....say, I was curious, how did you guys determine that 10 hours was the magic number?"


Which trainer would you use to get a high altitude / pressurization endorsement in? Is it a one lesson and done like a high performance?
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Sorta difficult to answer, as pressurized aircraft are not very common at flight schools. If at all.

Now if you purchased one, then such training is usually part of the familiarization and insurance required training.
 
A few years ago the FAA was going around with a portable hypoxia chamber. Best training I ever had. You legit get deprived oxygen, feel the symptoms, and discuss it afterwards. Which due the the Lexi of oxygen makes the debrief interesting because some people had no memory of what happened in the chamber.
 
It is likely that insurance will require you to go to school for any aircraft that would require a high altitude endorsement. You’ll get the training at that point so there is no need to seek the training out prior to that.
 
I would say 10 hours is to receive the endorsement for complex/tailwheel. Insurance requirements on min number of hours to receive the endorsement? I can understand to rent but sometimes people do not plan to solo in those aircraft but just want the experience with an instructor and the corresponding endorsement.
 
mandm said:
I would say 10 hours is to receive the endorsement for complex/tailwheel. Insurance requirements on min number of hours to receive the endorsement? I can understand to rent but sometimes people do not plan to solo in those aircraft but just want the experience with an instructor and the corresponding endorsement.
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As I suggested, your question likely better answered by asking the provider of the training versus us folk on PoA.
 
I'm not 100% sure I even understand your goal. "What trainer would I use to get a high-altitude endorsement?" is a strange question for two reasons.
- There aren't really high-altitude "training" aircraft. I mean, talking single-engine, you need something like a P210, Malibu, etc., which you're not going to find in a rental fleet except in very atypical situations.
- There's really no advantage to getting your high-altitude endorsement until you're going to fly an aircraft that requires it. So if you are, just do the endorsement in that aircraft.

I've provided high-altitude endorsements, but it's never been "let's go up an do a high-altitude endorsement", it's been part of a series of flights to check them out in a newly purchased aircraft. I believe I've done them in a Baron 58P, Cessna 340 and Cessna 421. So we fly 10 or 15 or 20 hours together, whatever the insurance requires, throughout which we will definitely have done all the tasks required for a high-altitude endorsement, and at the end I sign off the endorsement.
 
Pressurized Barons aren't actually pressurized??
 
RussR said:
You're right. Now I remember looking that up with him and saying "guess what, you don't need it, and here's why".

Still did all the same training though. May not be technically required, but still valuable.
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Yeah, the FAA obviously makes some cutoffs that aren’t based operationally, but should probably be trained
 
RussR said:
I'm not 100% sure I even understand your goal. "What trainer would I use to get a high-altitude endorsement?" is a strange question for two reasons.
- There aren't really high-altitude "training" aircraft. I mean, talking single-engine, you need something like a P210, Malibu, etc., which you're not going to find in a rental fleet except in very atypical situations.
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You can scratch the Malibu off the list for the same reason as the 58P.
 
mandm said:
I would say 10 hours is to receive the endorsement for complex/tailwheel. Insurance requirements on min number of hours to receive the endorsement? I can understand to rent but sometimes people do not plan to solo in those aircraft but just want the experience with an instructor and the corresponding endorsement.
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Insurance has no control on how long it takes to earn an endorsement. If there is no intent to fly the aircraft solo, the only requirement is to train the pilot to proficiency. How long it takes to get proficient depends on many things, similar to the variance in time to solo.
 
Rgbeard said:
Am I correct that generally you'd get this at FlightSafety (or similar) as part of the necessary insurance checkout in your type?
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You’d have to tell them you need it…there’s a ground school portion that they’d have to do as a separate class.
 
mondtster said:
Insurance has no control on how long it takes to earn an endorsement. If there is no intent to fly the aircraft solo, the only requirement is to train the pilot to proficiency. How long it takes to get proficient depends on many things, similar to the variance in time to solo.
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That’s what I’m thinking. But the complex endorsement I did, the instructor was following the club checklist and 10 hours was basically on it.
 
mandm said:
That’s what I’m thinking. But the complex endorsement I did, the instructor was following the club checklist and 10 hours was basically on it.
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It’s not uncommon for that to occur.
 
TommyG said:
A few years ago the FAA was going around with a portable hypoxia chamber. Best training I ever had. You legit get deprived oxygen, feel the symptoms, and discuss it afterwards. Which due the the Lexi of oxygen makes the debrief interesting because some people had no memory of what happened in the chamber.
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My understanding is it doesn't require you to fly to get the endorsement only that you receive the training. (EDIT:I understood wrong, but then don't operate pressurized aircraft so far)
Insurance may have other requirements.

The FAA program is IMO the best way to do this, if you can get scheduled into one. Not sure what the current status of it is.
but I am sure you could find out by calling the number here....
https://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/airman_education/aerospace_physiology/cami_enrollment/how_to/

This is the certificate they provided when I did the Altitude Chamber Training, When you could still do that at an Air Force Base.

Brian

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brcase said:
My understanding is it doesn't require you to fly to get the endorsement only that you receive the training.
Insurance may have other requirements.
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If you’re talking about the 61.31(g) endorsement, it does require flight training.
Except as provided in paragraph (g)(3) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a pressurized aircraft unless that person has received and logged training from an authorized instructor in a pressurized aircraft, or in a full flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a pressurized aircraft, and obtained an endorsement in the person's logbook or training record from an authorized instructor who found the person proficient in the operation of a pressurized aircraft. The flight training must include at least the following subjects:

(i) Normal cruise flight operations while operating above 25,000 feet MSL;

(ii) Proper emergency procedures for simulated rapid decompression without actually depressurizing the aircraft; and

(iii) Emergency descent procedures.
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MauleSkinner said:
If you’re talking about the 61.31(g) endorsement, it does require flight training.
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you are or course right...

"(2) Except as provided in paragraph (g)(3) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a pressurized aircraft unless that person has received and logged training from an authorized instructor in a pressurized aircraft, or in a full flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a pressurized aircraft, "

But as pointed out that would likely be part of any checkout in a pressured aircraft requiring the endorsement.

Brian
 
brcase said:
But as pointed out that would likely be part of any checkout in a pressured aircraft requiring the endorsement.
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Bottom line, you need to ensure that what you have meets the requirements. I’ve known a couple of jet captains who weren’t legal because they made some assumptions but didn’t actually have an endorsement or the equivalent.
 
I got the high altitude endorsement in a simulator when training for the C-425.
 
If you take a 121/135 ride in an airplane that qualifies you won’t get a high-altitude endorsement either.
 
I got my high altitude training ground/sim and flight in a Malibu (Mirage). I don’t believe you have to actually fly above FL250 to be endorsed. Was part of the factory initial training.
 
Rockymountain said:
I got my high altitude training ground/sim and flight in a Malibu (Mirage). I don’t believe you have to actually fly above FL250 to be endorsed. Was part of the factory initial training.
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You do need to fly above 25,000 feet.
The flight training must include at least the following subjects:

(i) Normal cruise flight operations while operating above 25,000 feet MSL;
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If an airplane is certified only to 25,000 MSL, then is it technically illegal to fly at FL250 in an area where the local altimeter setting is above standard?
 
RussR said:
If an airplane is certified only to 25,000 MSL, then is it technically illegal to fly at FL250 in an area where the local altimeter setting is above standard?
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I believe most planes certified that high are certified to pressure altitude.

The plane I fly is certified to 51,000’ pressure altitude, not 51,000’ MSL.
 
Deadbeat said:
I’ve given pressurized training a few dozen times. Time depends on what insurance requires but I usually fudge with my students as the cost of operating any pressurized aircraft requires deep pockets. My favorite is the P210.
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By "fudge", do you mean "we flew 1.5 today, but I know it's expensive, so I'm going to write 2.0 in the logbook"?

I can't get behind that. I've done insurance training in Cessna 340s fairly regularly. That's a $400/hr-ish airplane to operate. If the insurer says they need X hours, we fly a minimum of X hours. They bought the plane, they should have known the costs going in. Their finances are not a factor for my integrity.

I apologize if that's not what you meant.
 
I’m going to bump this thread - was the OP’s question answered? My question is similar but also not…

What is the most fun way to obtain this endorsement? I recall a place in Dallas where you spend time in a 737 sim and get the endorsement. Any other ideas?
 
kaiser said:
I’m going to bump this thread - was the OP’s question answered? My question is similar but also not…

What is the most fun way to obtain this endorsement? I recall a place in Dallas where you spend time in a 737 sim and get the endorsement. Any other ideas?
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Get a job flying something that requires the training. Great fun and money.
 
kaiser said:
I’m going to bump this thread - was the OP’s question answered? My question is similar but also not…

What is the most fun way to obtain this endorsement? I recall a place in Dallas where you spend time in a 737 sim and get the endorsement. Any other ideas?
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If that’s what floats your boat, go for it.

The OPs question was answered early on.

There are no trainer airplanes for that stuff. If you need the endorsement you will get it with the training for the airplane that requires it.

I have never seen a job board post looking for some random pilot ‘must have High Altitude endorsement’
 
kaiser said:
I’m going to bump this thread - was the OP’s question answered? My question is similar but also not…

What is the most fun way to obtain this endorsement? I recall a place in Dallas where you spend time in a 737 sim and get the endorsement. Any other ideas?
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That's ATOP. Either the 737 in the AA sims in Dallas or the A320 in the JetBlue Sims in Orlando. Very fun....
 
Thanks all!

For me it’s just about the experience… similar to the 61.183(i) spin endorsement… I may never become a CFI but want to experience more aspects of aviation in a fun way.


jbarrass said:
That's ATOP. Either the 737 in the AA sims in Dallas or the A320 in the JetBlue Sims in Orlando. Very fun....
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that’s right. I might go do it with them. I was just thinking if there’s an outfit that’ll do it in an airplane.
 
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